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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Marketing: {vocalsound} That went well , thank you .
Project Manager: That's great .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} 'Kay .
Marketing: Perfect .
Project Manager: Alright , let me just PowerPoint this up . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Right so um this meeting will be about the conceptual design , don't ask me s precisely what conceptual design is , it's just something important that we need to do . Um , think of it {disfmarker} 's kind of uh turning the abstract into slightly more concrete . In this meeting ideally we'll come to some final decisions on what we're gonna do for the prototype . Um . Right so um , apologies for the last meeting , it was brought to my attention that I did not make the roles clear enough , um , so I will attempt to do so more accurately in this particular meeting . Um , fair enough , thanks for the input , 's always good . Um . So , basically all we're gonna do is have some presentations again much like last time , um , and gonna go through you , uh whoever wants to go first is f fine by me um and we'll collate what we know about um what we discussed in the last meeting , possible directions . {vocalsound} And then we'll make some more decisions on um basic uh firm up our idea on how we want this remote control to look and work . So , perfect . So , without th further ado , whoever wants to go first is free to .
Industrial Designer: I'll go first .
Project Manager: Alright Nathan ,
Marketing: Go ahead .
Project Manager: take it away . It is Nathan right ? I'm not calling you the wrong name over and over again ?
Industrial Designer: No Nathan's fine .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good .
Industrial Designer: It's either Nathan or participant two .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mister participant two that is . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Nice .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Um ,
Project Manager: Nice .
Industrial Designer: basically what I'm gonna have to talk to you about today is um component design and it's been brought to my attention that we may be somewhat limited as to what we can do because of what our manufacturer offers ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker} Basically what I'm gonna be doing is talking to you about that . Um , components of a remote control , okay . We've already kind of gone over this but we're gonna have to get into more detail and probably have to reach some conclusions some time soon . Energy source , um , our manufacturer offers a variety of energy sources , your standard battery , solar cells . Our manufacturer didn't say anything about lithium so we might have to look {disfmarker} if we do go that route , we might have to look elsewhere . Um , and also there's a kinetic energy possibility . Basically , it's like a um {disfmarker} the idea of moving the remote would create enough energy to keep it running . So that's one possibility but I don't know whether that would be powerful enough to illuminate a touch screen .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So we'll have to look into that .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Um , the case , we have a few options , plastic , rubber or wood . Um and then as far as the way it's shaped , we can do standard boring flat , which we probably don't wanna do , curved or very sexy double curved .
Project Manager: What kind of th thickness are we looking at ?
Industrial Designer: Um , I imagine that we could specify . Um , I don't see any reason to go outside of the convention of three or four millimetres . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay , brilliant .
Industrial Designer: Um , the buttons , there are multiple scroll buttons available from our manufacturer , but to use those we'd have to use more chips , um and that would cost us more . And if we do go with the rubber doubled curved case um we'll have to use rubber push buttons because the other buttons aren't compatible with that .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um and just a little note there ,
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: touch screen equals many chips which equals many Euro .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right . Nice .
Industrial Designer: Um , one thing that I noticed was that most remotes operate on a infrare on the infrared part of the spectrum . So you notice when you push a button on a remote you can't see anything coming out of it but in fact there is light coming out of the remote and you know the television can detect that . And if you were to record {disfmarker} if you were to make a video recording you could actually see the light . Uh one thing that I thought might be interesting was to use part {disfmarker} use visible light coming out of the remote , just kind of as a fun gimmick .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So you could actually see something coming out of the remote when you pushed it .
Marketing: Interesting .
Industrial Designer: Course it'd have to be a part of the spectrum that wouldn't damage the human eye or anything like that .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} M Maybe {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Good call .
Project Manager: is there an option that we can have that off or on so a person can select like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Choose it .
Industrial Designer: I am sure that we could do that . Um , of course {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah I like the idea , it's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , just as a fun gimmick .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Just to set us apart a little bit . Um , and then on to the circuit board that we're gonna use , also known as the chip . Uh , we really don't have any way around the T_A_ one one eight three five .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Um findings , okay , we're very limited by what our current manufacturers can offer , um and my question to all of you is , should we look to other manufacturies or should we just make do with what we have available ?
User Interface: Interesting question .
Industrial Designer: 'S a bit of a challenge question .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Well I'd say shop around but with our time constraints , is that really a feasible option ?
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Right , that's my concern too . Um , if we do go the lithium battery route then we'll have to go outside our current manufacturer . My personal preference is {disfmarker} I'll just throw my cards on the table , uh I think we should probably go the solar battery route , just to kinda keep with the environmentally friendly theme that we have going on . Uh , I like the idea of the visible light signalling , that's something to set us apart and uh I was thinking about {disfmarker} I was thinking of ways that we could produce the remote in a variety of different case materials to suit different tastes . So we're not so confined by one style and say some {disfmarker} you know , say our {disfmarker} the one {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: if we just go with one and it doesn't go over well then we're in a bad situation .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Can we do marketing piloting too ? Try to see what kind {disfmarker} before we launch {disfmarker} can we see how they're received ?
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} It's an option , uh but actually there's {disfmarker} I've got some research already on like what we're looking at and trends in casing right now
Project Manager: Okay . Okay .
Marketing: which actually might even come into play beforehand ,
Project Manager: Okay , perfect .
Marketing: it may help us decide for now . Temporarily anyway .
Project Manager: Great , thank you very much Nathan .
Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , you're welcome .
Project Manager: That's perfect , so I guess that makes sense for you to take it from here .
Marketing: {vocalsound} I guess so , 'cause I found some interesting things . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Did you ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: You waiting for me ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Fascinating , compelling even .
Marketing: I know , what a teaser ain't it . Um . {vocalsound} Right . So
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: current market trends . Screen . Um , basically I was looking at what's going on in the remote control market right now and what's going on in other design fields , to see sort of what's what's trendy , what's new , what's happening . Um , remote control right now {disfmarker} basically everybody says they want newer , fancier , more exciting {disfmarker} they're sick of this boring , normal , functional , um {disfmarker} that we need innovative design options and there needs to be an easy user interface . Um the challenge is that current trends right now , across the board in fashion , in furniture , in technology , is a very organic fruit and vegetable kind of thing .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Now I'm not saying we should have , you know , tomato shaped remote controls or anything , but I think it is possible maybe to use um natural colours , like if wood is an option , that whole organic , sleek , clean ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: v line thing may be something we can look into . Different skin options , or if we can't afford this touch plate thing , or touch face screen interface um , maybe having the b images be specific , like you could choose your menu bullets to be
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Tomatoes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: a different shape
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: or {vocalsound} okay , not the example I would choose , but you know what I mean to t sort of {disfmarker} and th apparently the feel of the next couple of years is spongy ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I like it , I like it . {vocalsound}
Marketing: uh not something I I've come up with a {gap} though if we can get around to getting piloting , I thought maybe a casing option like uh not like a skin , but like a holder almost if you could do like um , leather options or wood options or something {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm . I should have mentioned this um . As far as the rubber that we can use {disfmarker} we can use a rubber as part of the case ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: it has a consistency of those stress balls .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Slick , slick .
User Interface: Fabulous .
Marketing: Might be an interesting way to go . Um , yeah so something to sit on for now . So overall I think we should stick with what we're finding , everyone's looking for easy to use , technologically innovative and this fancy new {disfmarker} I think perhaps the double curve thing and maybe this rubber option is our best way to go for right now .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um .
Project Manager: Interface , oh the interface graphics for the um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Um . Well I d but then if the touch screen thing isn't gonna work out for us that's really a non-issue .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I like the idea of of rubber too because it's {disfmarker} tends to be associated with being durable , something that you can drop and it doesn't matter .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: 'Cause so many {disfmarker}
Marketing: True .
Industrial Designer: you go to so many houses these days and you see broken remote controls .
Marketing: Very true . Very true .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's like , yep {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Taped with duck tape and what have you ,
Marketing: Very much so {vocalsound} . Um
Industrial Designer: you wouldn't have that problem if you used rubber .
Project Manager: it's ubiquitous isn't it ?
User Interface: We can have a duck tape casing .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: We could .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I think that goes against the whole fancy something , a new line ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It could go with the granola crowd .
Marketing: but worth a shot .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah , it could be , it could be ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Great ,
Marketing: um . Yeah that's what I know .
Project Manager: thanks for that Sarah .
Marketing: No problem .
Project Manager: Ron ?
User Interface: Phew . Computer's adjusting . One moment please . So interme interface concept by your faithful user interface designer .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So yur user interface , guys , is basically aspects of a computer system that we can see or hear , or otherwise uh perceive . Uh , commands and mechanisms , that basically user uses to control the operator operating system . Here's a d series of different remote controls
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that are out on the market today . I think we're definitely trying to get away from this kind of a look .
Project Manager: Yeah
User Interface: Um , so the following are a bunch of different uh interface uh concepts . Uh voice recognition , we we um actually have some new uh information from our research design team but uh I'll get to that in a moment . Um , so current voice recognition starts up to about eighty speech samples , um and basically you record your own verbal labels c and connect them to the remote control . Now our design team , research team , has been able to uh set up a system in which uh you can teach the remote control voice c recognition system to respond to um {disfmarker} with standard responses . Like you could say good morning uh remote control and it'll say in a sexy female voice , Good morning Joe . Um .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} In fact we already have this for a coffee maker line
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Lot of single people on the um on the re on the remote control research team
User Interface: {vocalsound} On the remote control
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: at the {gap} {vocalsound}
User Interface: right .
Marketing: Yeah . Very true , very true .
User Interface: Um , another concept is what uh Apple has come up with , the spinning wheel with uh L_C_ display like on the uh iPod
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: which I am sure most of you know about .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Um and then we have the scroll button with integrated push-button , kind of like a modern {gap} a bit bulky , a bit crazy ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: I don't think that's we're necessarily going for .
Industrial Designer: No .
User Interface: And uh some special components , uh ideas like uh blocking , having the ability to block channels from your {disfmarker} for your children um and uh dedicated buttons for for commonly used uh channels and even uh ideas like secured or hidden programming but uh I {disfmarker} again if we go with touch screen I don't think that's a big issue . Um and uh this is kind of the uh the big daddy of remote controls here .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh the jumbo universal remote control is almost impossible to misplace or lose .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , I can see . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , again probably not what we're going for
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so I {disfmarker} I mean my ideas here and kind of where I think we're heading is something slightly larger than a regular iPod uh with a hard cla c uh plastic casing
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: although I think some of the suggestions we've come up with are definitely uh very good ideas . Uh changeable casings uh {disfmarker} our design team was possibly talking about including one extra face plate with the package to kind of set the idea that you can change it and you can try changing it
Marketing: Mm , right .
User Interface: and kind of get used to thinking about maybe buying another one which can add value to our uh bottom line . Uh touch screen interface , um possibly having go-to buttons being uh stuck into the system so those don't move away from the screen , uh , the important ones like power , volume and jump between channels . Um , and of course our voice command system which I've talked a little bit about already
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: and uh the use of recognisable colours and shapes to aid recognition of the features um that are around so red for power , um arrows for different volume ups and downs and channels ups and downs and what not .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: And uh perhaps even adding in some stupid little jokes with the voice recognition idea like perh mm for instance my toastie maker that I got from my bank
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: has jokes when it's ready .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Nice .
Project Manager: Great .
User Interface: And uh that is about it .
Project Manager: Great , wonderful Ron , cool . Lot of good ideas , good facts to have .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: That's what they need , it's like a little dongle it just sticks up this further so you don't have to stand up every time , just connect it , my kingdom .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Right so , good to know all that stuff , thanks guys , um . {vocalsound} Now we kind of have to come to some decisions , um , I figure we can just go down the line and all three of us can have a chat about it . Um . Based on what Nathan presented as far as the um {vocalsound} various costs and benefits um I think , I dunno , what do you guys think about the touch screen at this point ?
Marketing: I think it's our most marketable feature just because it's so new and it's something that is showing up in other places .
Project Manager: 'Kay . 'Kay .
Marketing: But can we really afford it 'cause it looks like they would be , that would be a really main cost source then
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: right ?
Industrial Designer: My estimate is that in order to incorporate touch screen technology it's gonna cost us upwards of seventeen fifty Euro per remote ,
Project Manager: To produce each one .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Per ?
Industrial Designer: yeah that's just an estimate though .
Marketing: Piece .
User Interface: Oh you guys are always the dampers on these projects .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I know
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: You industrial designers . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I know .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hmm .
Industrial Designer: It's fun . {vocalsound}
Marketing: And our goal was to be under twelve fifty or we have to be under twelve fifty ?
Project Manager: Well .
Marketing: Do we remember ?
Industrial Designer: I thought there was some flexibility with that .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: There is , it's just , it is a question of {disfmarker} and how much ca o does that mean we're gonna have to increase the price to make money .
Marketing: Can we justify it ?
Project Manager: Um , from twelve fifty if we d wanna get our fift uh hundred per cent profit margin {vocalsound} um that would mean selling it from twenty five . If you multiply seventeen fifty by two that's thirty five .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Where do you guys come up with these numbers ?
Industrial Designer: That's just off the top of my head ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} From the board ,
Industrial Designer: it is pending further emails . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right .
Project Manager: um , well {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Though I think that's what people would pay for ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I mean if you're gonna pay for an expensive high class remote , you're gonna expect it to do something {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's true , I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It is the new {disfmarker} it would be in a class of its own .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And that's {disfmarker} to be fair the um the per cent of the market {disfmarker} we're not going for mass any you know , mass sales anyway , we're gonna make {disfmarker} I mean we we're not talking about selling eight zillion of these things , we just couldn't , not for twenty-five Euros ,
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: so we could probably maybe shrink the profit margins rather than selling for twenty five , sell 'em for thirty , but that's something that we can have finance deal with . Um , I say that we provisionally go with the touch screen
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: or wh y wh what was your thought on the matter Ron ?
User Interface: I'm thinking that's uh definitely a good idea and I also think that we could probably come up with some sort of a cheaper uh means to to go about this kind of production , my my team in the uh {disfmarker} on the third floor suggested that uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: See if we can cut some corners .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right . Well and we can look into this other manufacturing option , and maybe we can get 'em somewhere else cheaper .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: It's true .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We could initially go with what we have and if we can find them cheaper later on {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right . It's a starting point anyway , so .
Project Manager: No we could have a s very simple touch screen , you know , there's always the opportunity , if it's gonna be about the size of the iPod or whatever , you know , w we {disfmarker} yeah , I guess we can play around with it a bit . Alright , let's let's say that okay so the touch screen will be our {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} our main selling point here .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean I think that we really have two main selling points , I think that our casing and the voice recognition {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah 'cause with voice recognition {disfmarker} I mean really this is pretty bells and whistles kinda remote .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} The voice rec thing ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: I mean , {vocalsound} if if we're looking at bottom line , now we're looking at upping the cost to seventeen to get the touch screen on ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think we might have to drop the voice rec .
Marketing: I think we'd have to decide between 'em definitely .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: To be honest , we have the capa we have the design in-house ,
Marketing: Price-wise .
User Interface: I mean we've we've come up with this , with this new voice {disfmarker}
Marketing: True .
User Interface: we're using it for our coffee machines already .
Marketing: We've already got it .
User Interface: I can pass you on that email from my uh guy in uh {disfmarker} guy down the hall . Sounds good .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hmm . What do you think on it Nathan ? About the voice rec ?
Industrial Designer: I think if we {disfmarker} we do both the {disfmarker} obviously production costs are going to go way up um but it does put it into {disfmarker} it'd become the Rolls Royce of remote controls basically . It would be very nice .
Marketing: Pretty much .
User Interface: I mean we we have to r reflect back on what our market research did say .
Marketing: Right and they said they wanted voice recognition . Course , maybe they hadn't thought of this whole touch screen option , but definitely we know the market is there for voice recognition so to say we have the technology and we're not gonna use it even though we know it'll sell is a call I don't think I can give the highs ups .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Like really I can't go in and say no we're gonna just ignore everything we know . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Does having both really up our costs ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I can't see how it wouldn't , I mean , there's you know the old aphorism , you can have it fast , you can have it cheap or you can have it quality , pick two of three . You know , you can't you can't have all three .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , 'cause you {disfmarker} you just upping the number of chips that you need to deal with each different function .
Project Manager: It's just impossible .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well if we're gonna pick betwe e alright so we have to pick between one of the two . Um . Otherwise , yeah , we just {disfmarker} it just becomes cost prohibitive . What {disfmarker} which , which do we suspect we should hold o we should hold on to ?
Marketing: Well , we already have research backing voice recognition as you know fiscally solvent . But uh I I I personally would tend to another direction but if that's what's gonna sell I think that's what we need to go with and maybe we can table this touch screen for our next model .
Industrial Designer: I would have to side with that ,
Project Manager: 'Kay .
Industrial Designer: I think the voice recognition is simpler , we already have the {disfmarker} all the technology in-house , it's ready to go , it's packaged , it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What does the cost look like Ron ? Is it cheaper to do the V_R_ or to do the uh touch screen ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well my p {vocalsound} is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Nathan ?
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Um , this is just off the top of my head keep in mind , but I think the voice recognition would {disfmarker} they're both mm they're both gonna push the costs up , but um , since we already have the technology in-house for the voice recognition
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: we're not gonna have to do as much design work
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right .
Industrial Designer: and sometimes the design work is what push the costs up , if you know what I mean .
Project Manager: Right .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , I definitely have to agree with that last comment .
Marketing: And we're still not {disfmarker} then we don't have to deal with this battery issue nearly as much either ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: we can stick with what we've already got . In a lot other ways too .
Project Manager: Okay . So I'm getting {disfmarker} alright so more or less you guys think that o o of the two of 'em , the voice recognition will be better . Okay .
Marketing: I think it's our lower risk option
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: which for right now {disfmarker} we can have it on the market sooner which is all in all our best option .
Project Manager: Okay . Sorted .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We will omit the touch screen in favour of voice recognition .
User Interface: It's you and me outside a little here . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So and when are we gonna have basic prototypes coming up next that's {disfmarker} you guys's next step right ?
Project Manager: Yeah , well we'll we'll sic we'll sort out what it {disfmarker} what {vocalsound} f what else we're gonna talk about for the prototype
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: but yeah that's our next step , it'll be a developing of prototype .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Are we going to talk now about um the materials that we're gonna use for the case and all those things ?
Project Manager: Yes . We'll just run through it yeah , yeah , um .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: You discussed either a lithium or a solar power . Would the solar power be enough to fuel a voice recognition ? Or this kinesthetic one , would that be enough to fuel a voice recognition remote control ?
Industrial Designer: Um , the solar power definitely would be but I think just to keep people from getting annoyed , 'cause sometimes solar power fails and there's no way round that , we should install a small backup battery .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Just to cover those moments when for whatever reason , the remote hasn't been exposed to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well what of people with like the T_V_ in their basement ,
Project Manager: Mm . Yep .
Marketing: like what if {disfmarker} wha we can't guarantee sunlight everywhere so having a secondary source is probably {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's true . Yeah , it works about the same as a solar powered calculator ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and you know how those those don't really require that much light ,
User Interface: Calculator .
Marketing: Yeah . True . True .
Industrial Designer: um , but obviously a little more light than a calculator , but we're not talking about a lot of light . Doesn't have to be out taking a sunbath for a few hours a day or anything .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Right .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: What do you think Ron ?
User Interface: I'm willing to agree with everything that's been said .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Uh I have to say though that um another idea's come up in my head . If we're really not uh handling the remote control to a great extent we could possibly get away from the idea of having a hand-held remote control and maybe kind of have a round remote control that kind of looks like a paperweight or something like that , kind of a sleek little uh neat thing that sits on your table or something .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Interesting .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Why , why moving away from hand-held , why ?
User Interface: Just a thought .
Industrial Designer: What's the uh idea ?
User Interface: Well if you don't need to pick it up it could kind of be a selling point .
Marketing: I if it's got voice recognition it can be technically anywhere in your room and still do its job .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Do you think people that are {disfmarker} people that buy a remote , are they always gonna wanna use the voice recognition or is it just something that they do sometimes .
Marketing: True , and i probabl I think we're banking on selling it to more than just voice recognition people , like we want it to work fundamentally as a basic manual too ,
Project Manager: Well we have to have buttons on it too as well .
Marketing: right .
Project Manager: But that's done , that's no bother I mean if you look at the catalogue from places like with sharper image or whatever you know they might have {disfmarker} or like um {vocalsound} who is it , Apple makes these really pretentious speakers with the th sub-woofers you know like clear and glass and you know
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: and then they got these little pyramidal type of um speakers .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: I mean , why not have a little rounded kind of thing ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: it could still have the basic buttons on it . Um , 'cause we're going for basic functionality primarily as well .
Marketing: With the bu yeah .
Project Manager: And maybe a menu button and so forth , you know um use a channel button to scroll through the menu d if they want to record programmes or whatever you know I mean we can sort that out .
Industrial Designer: I think , I think you're on to something
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: because we need to escape the traditional shape of a remote . Maybe something that looks nice on a table is {disfmarker} would be good , even though {disfmarker} and hand-held the same time .
Marketing: True . Way to go .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I think it's all about following Apple's lead on a lot of these things .
Marketing: Yeah I'm thinking of the airport portal ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: you know like that little pod looking thing ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , those are nice .
User Interface: Exactly .
Project Manager: Yeah , I mean a nice {disfmarker} although we do um wh uh is {disfmarker} I'm recalling that she mentioned that we n need to get away from the surgical white kind of brushed aluminium thing
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: and get back to it
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: but you could have a very tasteful um wood coloured or earth tone kind of um {disfmarker}
Marketing: That would be kinda neat . Terracotta bowl or something . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Still , I mean , yeah , along those lines .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah I like that , I like that idea a lot . Um , let's see what we can do as far as that goes . And the uh the material like the plastics and so forth , we were discussing that being uh {disfmarker} using like a rubber kind of softer feel ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: um you know
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: li lik if you feel the the tip on this pen it's a bit {disfmarker} gives just a bit . You know
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: something where it's uh a a more advanced f form of plastic that has some kind of a tactile response to it .
Industrial Designer: Right . Just kind of the squishy feel .
Marketing: Yeah , which is the next big thing , so that's not gonna hurt us either . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah let's see if we can do a squishy non-remote control-looking remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But to be fair , yeah , I mean , you just c you could just put it {disfmarker} literally put it on the the ni the coffee table next to the telly and say volume up .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah I like it , I like the idea , that's good .
Marketing: Handy .
Project Manager: Um and we've sorted of discussed costs , {vocalsound} um . I guess we'll a that's gonna be uh a thing , if we run a bit over-budget , that might be okay , um .
Industrial Designer: Sorry about the uh lack of information on cost , I just haven't been provided that information by our manufacturers
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We'll have more of an idea when the prototype {disfmarker} have more of a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and I'm just having to guess .
Project Manager: we'll have more of an idea later on . Um . And we just yeah go from there . {vocalsound} Um , so
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: we've revisited the touch screen and more or less ruled that out , um , I think so we're more or less con we {disfmarker} wh wh we're more or less in agreement that we want to have a um {vocalsound} a simple kind of function , you know , not too complex .
Marketing: Mm . Right . Well when the majority of people are only using the most primary functions on a daily basis , although I'm not saying we should completely rule out major functions , they should be secondary , at least if not functionally then visually , like those shouldn't be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Like maybe have menu things .
Marketing: Take precedence ,
Industrial Designer: If , if we're not going the touch-screen route then we can um just incorporate maybe something that folds out
Marketing: yeah .
Industrial Designer: like what you often see on these kinds of remotes is the most basic functions up here
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: and something that slides down to reveal the you know more complicated things .
Marketing: And they slide .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: Well and do we wanna consider like an iPod screen which isn't a touch screen but you're still scrolling through menu options , in p
User Interface: {vocalsound} Think then we're hitting our cost issue again .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah
Marketing: True ,
Project Manager: we've also got the the me the thing of ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: we're still not making it easier then .
Project Manager: if we're gonna have a non-remote-looking remote , how do we {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: True .
Project Manager: B But no I mean
Marketing: Fair enough .
Project Manager: we could do a slide or a compartment , you know , like if it {disfmarker} say it's a lit little vaguely ovoidal type of thing , it'd be easy to have a compartment in there .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Or you know , a b a b a a series of you know three or four buttons with a menu button and then a side an s up and down type of thing , like on um {disfmarker} like on a D_V_D_ player . You know you see the modern D_V_D_ players'll just have um a menu button on the side and then four buttons around them
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah it's just a scroll .
Project Manager: and you can just kind of manoeuvre through the menu like that .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So are we gonna {disfmarker} are we talking {disfmarker} we need to figure out what kind of buttons we're going to use , are we going to use scroll buttons ? Rubber buttons ? Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well it seems like {vocalsound} I dunno it seems to me that we could just do the um {disfmarker} stick with the rubber 'cause since we're probably gonna be using some kind of um {vocalsound} rubber for the outside case
Marketing: Yeah . Probably .
Project Manager: we might as well stick with that um .
Industrial Designer: Right .
User Interface: I think to a certain extent we have to stick with uh kind of uh a little bit traditional in terms of the buttons and then and then make our unique feature our casing and what not and our voice command .
Marketing: Right . Mm . Well no it's basic just like four directions that are {disfmarker} that can use as menu or channel and volume or however you wanna do it , are really versatile and everybody's already got them to some extent on the remotes they already own so it's not like we're dealing with everybody relearning things 'cause that's not something anybody's gonna wanna buy a new for .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: Mm 'kay , um . {vocalsound} We've already kind of covered this as well . That seems to be selling {vocalsound} um and we we've more or less agreed that we want to kar target this youth market , um .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Especially now with eighteen to thirty five year olds being such a large quantity of the population . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Right , particularly in technological fields ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Marketing: so that's exactly where we're headed .
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Um . Yeah alright , well , more or less covered what we need to cover I think fi an an any final thoughts before we think about doing the protot moving on to the prototype .
User Interface: Well what are we actually doing ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right .
User Interface: What were {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I was just gonna step on to um {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh . Oh it wasn't in the way but {disfmarker} yeah , whatever .
Project Manager: I wasn't ? Oh , my bad {vocalsound} um sorry .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No , don't worry about it .
Project Manager: The um , yeah okay I was just gonna assign tasks in the next b anyth any oth
User Interface: Sure .
Project Manager: any other final thoughts before we go ahead and
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} cool ?
Industrial Designer: So
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: have we decided that we are gonna go with different style cases for different people ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um .
Industrial Designer: Or are we just going to go with one ? ..It's very , it's very hard thing to predict because you have different cases
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and that might open up your market a little bit obviously , but if you have just one case and it doesn't go very well {disfmarker} mm .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's a tough situation ,
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: but obviously having more cases also costs more so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well then again colours wouldn't be so hard to do , you could have uh a , you know , a um uh kind of a natural wood colour , like a stained wood and um , I don't know , olive green or something .
Industrial Designer: There's an idea .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
Project Manager: That wouldn't be so much of a problem to incorporate into the colour of the {gap} thing .
User Interface: And again copying iMac's kind of {disfmarker} for iPod Mac Apple's uh colour scheme .
Marketing: Yeah , get in there . Yeah , totally .
Project Manager: Yeah , I think that's probably a good id okay so let's work on {vocalsound} uh multiple case colours . But yeah , stick with the same kind of kinda {disfmarker} yeah , the same basic non-remote kind of remote design . Cool . Alright , so we'll have the next meeting about half an hour , um . I want the uh {disfmarker} I'd like {disfmarker} Nathan , I'd like you to work on just the basic look and feel , what can we accomplish , um , given these parameters that we're just gonna sort of have this kind of uh non-remote remote . Um , what are our broad constraints before we deve design a prototype . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: And um Ron if you can figure out how probably best to lay out this idea of this simple design with the voice recognition built in and also this kind of drop down or s on the side kind of menu options simple . Somehow work out how we can get this all s in the same place . Um , and if you can check product evaluation with m some pilots and stuff . Um I need you guys to work together on making a prototype , {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} using um {vocalsound} prototype building materials um {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And also um specific instructions will be sent to you by your coaches as well .
Industrial Designer: Oh excellent yeah .
Project Manager: So that's what to start with for now , is that alright , you guys feel clear about this ?
Marketing: Cool .
Industrial Designer: That sounds good .
User Interface: Fabulous .
Project Manager: Alright . I guess we'll just hit the bricks . Thanks guys .
Marketing: Cool .
Query:
Why did the Industrial Design disagree with the User Interface when discussing the shape of the remote control?
Answer:
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The User Interface proposed to give up the idea of a hand-held model and give its way to the voice recognition system, while the Industrial Design thought it would be necessary for remote control to be able to be held in hand. Industrial Design believed that not all the people would always use the voice recognition system and most of the time they have to take it by hand. For most, voice recognition is only a kind of addition. If the remote control was not in a suitable shape, like something round, it would bring some troubles.
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Project Manager: Okay , so now we are on the conceptual design meeting . {vocalsound} Uh y getting close to the last
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: is the penultim meeting . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: How was lunch ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm great . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Thanks {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Don't be sarcastic . {vocalsound} Mark . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {vocalsound} um I will again do the secretary part uh we will have three presentation first um uh the industrial design , first Rama then Mark and then Sammy .
Marketing: Uh Rama .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ramaro .
Project Manager: Um um we have to take a decision on the control {disfmarker} remote control concepts and we have forty minutes .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: So what we want to {disfmarker} the decision we want to take on this meeting are on the um first on the component concept , so what kind of energy we use uh what kind of chip on print and one ki kind of case . And also on user interface concept uh what kind of interface we use and if there is some supplements . And at the end um Sammy will give um {vocalsound} a trend watching on what he's {disfmarker} he's been doing . It's {disfmarker} So , let's go . First with Rama . Participant two .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , participant two . Component .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yep . So we're to mainly design f mainly need to know which components we'll use for energy , and the material and interface . For energy there are maybe two or three possibilities . First one , we can use simple battery , or we can use {vocalsound} traditional solar cells or {disfmarker} mm and the material we can have plastic , rubber which is good for this R_S_A_
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: and then uh titanium , which can be {disfmarker} which have very good look an and then interface we're to use push buttons or liquid crystal d L_C_D_ display . And we can use some {gap} , moving {gap} kind of thing . So , as we discussed before , we need to {disfmarker} we would like to have some speech recognition s chip in our remote control . So this can be simple kind of programmable chip and {disfmarker} which can use microphone {gap} sensors . And we also want to look at our remote control , so . Still we are looking for possible uh technical uh specifications and how w easy we can do and within our pri range , like we're to {disfmarker} in our twelve Euros or around that . So we are looking for simple devices or simple technology to do the location of remote control in a room or in a house .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , okay .
Industrial Designer: So uh we discussed an {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Excuse me . So we would like to propose battery instead of solar cells and it would be problematic uh to have enough energy with the solar cells
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and so we would like to just use simple battery . And also we want to go for titanium design instead of rubber or {disfmarker} and well the problem is with this design we found that we can't use double-curved shapes .
Marketing: What is a double-curved shape ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Like you can have two curves .
Marketing: Uh-huh .
User Interface: Why ?
Industrial Designer: Uh it's {disfmarker} I think in manufacturing I guess it's problematic . So , we want to go for simple push buttons because it need a simple chip and it's really lesser {disfmarker} uh re really less expensive compared to L_C_D_
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which are uh which needs advanced chip technology and it's more expensive ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: since we want to put some other features such as speech recognition
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: we want to reduce uh cost .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I want to know why it b uh just uh sorry but for the point before uh why not the rubber , if it is something that it seems to be light .
Marketing: The cost .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} And also like in {disfmarker} if you put a {gap} it's be difficult to do all the moulding of buttons and these things
Project Manager: Okay . You m titanium it's more uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: W we can use something like you know {vocalsound} the whole body's titanium but there are some rubber or I dunno some rubber parts like
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm like this ?
Project Manager: Yes so mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: to make it feel better and to you know {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like in cell phones recently
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: these {disfmarker} you can {gap} with the rubber in four directions and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . {gap}
Industrial Designer: yeah . But full assembly {disfmarker} We'll use mainly for titanium {gap}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: rubber is expensive
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and also it's bit difficult to do all the shapes uh .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And this push buttons
Project Manager: Uh yeah so
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} we we would like to use push buttons instead of L_C_D_s and so we want to mo I mean we're {gap} we want to put speech recognition so we want to reduce price on this technology and so that we can have enough space or enough money
Project Manager: Okay , s so simple button and uh speech recognition for the more complicated .
Industrial Designer: for {disfmarker} S S
Marketing: Speech {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Y yeah we have simple buttons and speech recognition technology ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay , and still we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker}
User Interface: mm can we still include the L_ L_S_D_ display ?
Marketing: L_C_D_ .
User Interface: L_C_D_ yeah L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Uh l
Marketing: Seems not , it's either L_C_D_ or push-button .
Industrial Designer: So uh
User Interface: No ,
Industrial Designer: it's like a {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's not gonna be a t no touchable but still like a source of information or source for menus .
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah maybe maybe we can see depending on how we'll come up with our full design then if we have enough money or like for and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , so let's try it , let's t
Industrial Designer: because the speech recognition technology will take at least five Euros or {gap} or something so we want to reduce the cost on display
Marketing: {gap} The L_C_D_ would {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: or this inter
Marketing: The display would only be display and not uh touch sensitive you mean .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , it's it's not gonna be a touch pad , uh just a display for giving you information .
Marketing: Just uh for output , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ok Yeah , that can we we can consider ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because like it won't take much money I guess ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , yep .
Project Manager: {gap} Mm .
Industrial Designer: You have any further questions or ?
Marketing: I guess no um . So the batteries uh are going to be very light .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , we're to go for li and now I think we have many options in the market so we can go for small nickel or alkaline batteries
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: for really light batteries and with uh good price .
Marketing: So this device on n that can be used for speech recognition could also be used for just uh the finding it basically , instead of clapping why not just be {disfmarker} ask .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's {disfmarker} then the the one thing we want to know is like because remote control is used for like in the household so it it it will be it {disfmarker} m maybe at least five , six people want to use it so so how to uh uh how to define our re speech recognition
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: whether we want to do s speaker independent or speaker dependent . If we're going for more speaker independent then it would be like again cumbersome and we need really m more technology
Project Manager: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: and so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: for the location . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , if if everybody in the house n {gap} to locate then we're to go for some speaker independent technology or something .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . So let's now go to the {disfmarker} you don't have more question ?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: No , it's okay .
Project Manager: Um mm thank you mm .
User Interface: No more questions .
Industrial Designer: Yep . Thank you .
Marketing: Puts less of constraint on what we can do
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm yeah , yeah .
Marketing: but
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: it's always like that . We have dreams and the {disfmarker} in the end we find out that it's not feasible . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , but {disfmarker} mm .
Industrial Designer: Oh . We have uh some limitations {gap} . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Anyway . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: But still uh L_S_D_'s already quite nice ,
Marketing: L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: L_C_ {vocalsound}
Marketing: L_S_D_ is something else ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: and it's quite nice as well . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm an artist , sorry . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So ,
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} yeah .
User Interface: So uh , that's not {disfmarker}
Marketing: go on uh artist . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I hope that's not too much .
Project Manager: Now let's talk about uh interface .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} Uh participant number three .
Project Manager: Three .
Industrial Designer: Three .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh
Project Manager: Which one ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: mm mm uh have a look at this {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: no it's {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {gap} Uh so the concept of the interface . Generally I developed quite a broad concept not only for the interface , but for possible instruction or user's manual and uh all the complex things that come together with your T_V_ and remote controls . So let's start with this . We got our perfect remote control with a lot of buttons
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and uh we got explanation for every button
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and you can use your time and uh it will take i some days to learn all this buttons and um the L_C_D_ is going to be somewhere here and uh go back button , I don't know really where it is , maybe one of this buttons , and um power on and off mm I I don't remember
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so uh it it it should be maybe this button is power on and off ? Or no {gap} ? I can see nothing . So that's our concept . It's called the millennium remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Let's change millenniums . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: maybe you can use {gap} in the end and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} doesn't make sense . This is very {vocalsound} ugly .
User Interface: Really ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I thought you like it . Ah okay
Marketing: Oh no ,
User Interface: just press the button , please uh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: too much concept .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , we will not use this . We will not use this .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But instead of this I will devise {disfmarker} That's our concept .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah , back today . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it's got just few buttons , quite low looking , and all this stuff we already we already discussed .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . 'Kay .
User Interface: And uh what will people say ? They'll say it's perfect . Or what will say ? Uh they will say it's splendid . And uh e everyone will say I'll buy it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {gap} Do you think it can come in several colours ?
User Interface: And everyone's gonna be satisfied .
Marketing: Or did the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I would make a backlight of the L_C_D_ screen with different colours .
Marketing: Um but not the case .
User Interface: Not the case .
Marketing: Uh the case would only be in that uh aluminium uh titanium stuff ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Because apparently from your survey people like colours , no ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , well they like uh something which is uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , so let's remember there's a Nokia phone which changeable panels .
Marketing: Mm yeah , okay ,
User Interface: Do you like it ?
Marketing: so that would be the option . I don't know I don't have a Nokia phone ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: but I don't use that but again , uh I might {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's why you don't have it . That's why ,
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: 'cause it's nasty . {vocalsound}
Marketing: bu but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But it would be expensive , no ? If you use colour L_C_D_ .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Uh instead of that maybe we can change the colour of the assembler .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can just {disfmarker} if users want more colours they can pay more money to get this uh the shapes and they can have different assembly .
User Interface: Um , I am here .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So users have different {disfmarker} I mean they have their own interests , colour interests and so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So we can just {disfmarker} if they want they can just pay another two Euro .
Project Manager: Uh-huh , okay , so
User Interface: 'Kay .
Project Manager: you you propose something with option i that increase the price if we {disfmarker} if you want o more colours {vocalsound} on L_C_D_ ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah yes . If they want like uh {disfmarker} so that we can {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Kind of upgradable uh {vocalsound} remote control .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Wow , wow .
Industrial Designer: Just they'll get few more things and few more colours .
User Interface: Okay , what uh {disfmarker} there's one more decisi uh one more solution in fact , um {vocalsound} 'cause there are some some paints that can change colour according to where they are , like they can reflect different colours depending on what is around , like what colour is around , and depending on the temperature ,
Industrial Designer: Lights , yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: And thermodynamic also . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Like a chameleon .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: We can make it in fact .
Project Manager: Yeah but that's maybe mo too much expensive , yeah .
User Interface: If if if the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But uh it can be in uh maybe in an {disfmarker} a gradable version ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm ,
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because uh I think there are two kinds of people . Those for which the remote control is uh is to be uh something useful uh I'm going to talk about this later but {disfmarker} and those for which is something that that that uh is uh specific to them so it it's like a signature . My remote control is pink . Nobody else than me has a pink remote control .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And that makes me special .
Project Manager: Okay
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and you think that we don't have to make to make them pay more because of {vocalsound} uh o or this is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think I think they would be ready p ready to pay more for that .
Project Manager: Okay , so
Marketing: Those who wanted to have it pink .
Project Manager: so {vocalsound} i it's not uh a s base service
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No mm no .
Project Manager: it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: So ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: {gap} be an option ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: It might be optional , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: But those people will be really few , no ? So like we can {gap} those {disfmarker}
Marketing: The the young people the young people want to be different from their friends .
Industrial Designer: Ah .
Marketing: Although similar but have something just slightly better . Pink {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So m so
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: maybe that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if that it's a selling point maybe it has to be the base .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah ,
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: yeah . But you know if you want to be different you just take your remote control with you all the time .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And you'll be different .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And it makes you different ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: you know ?
Marketing: You always have your remote .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh in the train uh , hello uh no . {vocalsound} Want to change my neighbour .
User Interface: Anyone has their remote controls here ?
Marketing: Oh , you don't ? {vocalsound} Yeah . You don't have your remo {vocalsound}
User Interface: No ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wh you you know like for instance take the iPod . It's a kind of remote control . {vocalsound} Uh it's white
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and it's so white that you see it from any anywhere .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: It has this distinctive look and feel and look {gap} which people seems to like {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: just because it's {vocalsound} a colour that we don't usually see in a remote control . White .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh-huh , uh-huh . Could we integrate something into our remote control , something like light ?
Marketing: Seems important .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: That they can use it in darkness , like . Hand light ,
Marketing: Mm {gap} glow in the dark ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: maybe like the infrared like we can put some radium chips or something
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so that like {disfmarker} at least um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Iradium ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah sorry . Mm .
Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . S well ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: let's go on maybe with the presentation .
Marketing: Yeah . Uh-huh , yeah sure . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: And um the remote control's going to be smart
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: but how smart should it be to not to complicate things too much ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I dunno
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that's a question to you and to mm to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well so I heard that uh it seems that speech recognition is something that can be done uh so that's the smartness of the thing .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Currently we don't have guns with speech recognition or uh beer cans with speech recognition
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but we may have remote controls with speech recognition .
User Interface: Okay , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm , that's a nice world . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So just just just just think about it um .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} Thank you .
Marketing: Don't touch the remote .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} yeah . Are are you saying here that uh the remote controls should be aware of who is using it ? So for instance the young guy would not be able to use it because his father doesn't want .
User Interface: Uh yeah I just want to say it should be real smart .
Marketing: Like with some {disfmarker} Maybe fingerprint recognition or {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Voice recognition is quite tough . I say don't use it , and the control just looks .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: 'Cause I ordered jus To l to l lock it .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Mm .
Industrial Designer: Uh that {disfmarker} mm that could be feasible I guess , like {disfmarker} So since we have {disfmarker} we want to do some speaker dependent speech recognition uh so we can use {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . So it could be smart in that way .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm . Okay .
Marketing: But for instance th I I'm thinking about the other uh uh particularity that the the remote control could have . S since it it knows who is using it , it might also record the kind of uh channels you are u more often using and uh levels of volumes that you're more often uh {disfmarker} things like that
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah , sure .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and provide you ways of using them , I dunno , somehow ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I dunno , that might be expensive
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but
Industrial Designer: Uh it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: that might also be a good sales pitch again .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} The remote that knows you . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay , thanks .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: My turn ?
Project Manager: yeah , Marketing Expert .
Marketing: {gap} Okay , it's alright .
Project Manager: Participant two ?
Industrial Designer: Four .
Project Manager: Four ,
Marketing: Four , I think .
Project Manager: sorry .
Marketing: Trend , yeah . No uh yes . Okay , so I'm going to talk about trends and um I hope this can help us to to understand l how we should design our remote control . So , next slide please . So first maybe just a small recap on {vocalsound} how how do we watch trends so it's not so uh simple you might think that it's easy but uh it's not so simple . Anyway these days uh the best uh source of information is the web as you know , so have to to go often on the web and look at uh what the others are doing , and ask real people who are using real remote controls every day uh or any other tool that is similar to a remote control which basically is a small device that people {gap} have with them , always , like a phone . We can we can use the phone as a as a good uh uh {vocalsound} example of where to in be inspired . Of course those tha d who are watching the trends are also {disfmarker} have also to be inspired because in fact they're not only watching the trends , they're inventing it , they're creating the trend . I hope I'm going to try to help you on that . This is more risky because you're not following the trend ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: you try to invent it , which means either you succeed and you make a lot of money or you don't and you're out of business . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So anyway uh next slide please . {vocalsound} Uh to be to be quick {vocalsound} there's a lot of words here but uh basically there are {disfmarker} uh in in the market of of remote controls there are three aspects that we should very {disfmarker} pay much attention to . The first one , which seems to be the most important one , is that it has to be fancy , it has to have a fancy look and feel . And uh interestingly this is the very most important thing . It has to be fancy . Strangely enough it's more important to be fancy than to be wi and now that's the second thing it has to be , it has to be technologically i innovative ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: it has to be new with some of uh new uh technology inside and uh and this is also uh more important than the last thing which we w may think that would have been the most important , which is that it should be easy to use and it should be easy to use as a remote control . So as you see uh {vocalsound} it first have to be very nice , s something that people are proud of uh uh that i uh they can be id identified with uh and and then uh something that um contains very novel stuff that they can talk about with their friends , huh , mine has this and not yours . And finally of course it has to be useful as a remote control but it seems that it's not so important that it's useful as a remote control . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Next slide please .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Uh and now in a more uh general uh uh broad way of seeing th uh the thing . If we look back and not uh look at only remote controls I think it's important to see that the trends are quite the same in many areas so {disfmarker} currently the the trends that we see in l in l big cities like Paris and Milan , well , it seems that this year things should have uh a fruit and vegetable uh way of {vocalsound} of look or feel
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: or so . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And I think of course uh {vocalsound} i it applies to everything . That's the thing with trends . {vocalsound} It it can travel f from clothe to furniture {vocalsound} same idea .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fruit and vegetable . Think fruit and vegetable . {vocalsound} And uh if we co we compare to last year , now it has to be spongy ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: What is spongy ?
Marketing: yeah . Well
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Marketing: this {vocalsound} so so I think uh uh i
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} kind of um maybe {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: When we were talking about rubber ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think uh the rubber aspect might be important because it's what is probably more feasible in terms of sponginess .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: S So maybe titanium it's not a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap} We need to think about {disfmarker} mm mm .
Marketing: Seems not , seems not .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} sorry Mark .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It seems to be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think more of uh something in the colours of uh like fruit and vegetables and spongy ,
Industrial Designer: Fruit . Even shape ?
Marketing: as a {disfmarker} even in the shape it has to be more round and uh more uh uh look natural somehow . I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} More {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: And not those futuristic uh remote control with angles and uh and titanium like .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Mm .
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound} You're old-fashioned .
Marketing: So that's what people seem to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah i I know it's quite far from what you thought
Project Manager: Sorry . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but that's that's fashion and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay that's all I have to say .
Project Manager: Mm you have questions ?
Industrial Designer: So these abilities are mainly ad addressed by young people ? Or it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: These {disfmarker} I'm sorry .
Industrial Designer: This {disfmarker} you you {gap} so did you {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah we have people uh uh listening to the trends everywhere in the world , of course ,
Industrial Designer: Where ? Oh . Oh , okay , mm-hmm .
Marketing: as you know our company is quite big and uh so I'm just asking them what are the current trends according to them when they go in the stores and when they ask uh their uh friends
Industrial Designer: It's not from {disfmarker} mm . Mm-hmm . Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: that are also {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's more general trend
Marketing: well .
Industrial Designer: it's not particular to the remote control .
Marketing: No , it's not it's not {disfmarker} this this is very general , yeah . But it seems that trends travel across things .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: The {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but some materials n they're to be uh they're to be something like solid like they can't be really spongy
Marketing: Sure .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah .
Marketing: We have to {disfmarker} I think we have to have the look of fruit and vegetables
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah sponge , yeah yeah at least that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: but we still have to put our chips inside , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of course .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah
Marketing: This is your problem .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} yeah yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} This is not mine . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , looking {disfmarker} yeah fruit . These things can be easily incorporated . We can have t colours or this shape
Marketing: Yeah , I think in the colours and in the uh the kind of material .
Industrial Designer: or at least {disfmarker}
Marketing: If if it's something like rubber made or {disfmarker} I think it it's also going to be good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay ?
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No more question ? Okay .
Marketing: Yep . Thanks .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . Okay , so we will have uh next meeting in thirty minutes again . Um now you have to go straight on this individual action which i which are for Rama uh wil design ,
Industrial Designer: Look and feel de
Project Manager: um Mark the user interface design , and uh Sammy uh the product evaluation . {vocalsound} Uh you will work together uh on a new on on a prototype using modelling clay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Hmm . Mm sounds interesting . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm um and I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} as always your personal coach will send you specific instruction .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Thanks . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So , can we highlight the specific features of our {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah you're right , you have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah , so so we want the speech recogniser and we want some kind of buttons and we want some themes like fruits or vegetables ,
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you say s
Industrial Designer: we want to follow general trend .
Marketing: Spongy .
Project Manager: S
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: do we agree on that ? Yeah . We have to .
Industrial Designer: So , do you think {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No , we don't have to ,
User Interface: So we have to uh for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No . {vocalsound}
Marketing: but seems it's the trend .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Yeah .
Marketing: Again , as I said we can also try to make it , to create the trend .
User Interface: yeah so are we confident enough on creating trends ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So there's no {disfmarker} Well , that's {disfmarker} you t can try to convince us .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , we can make it smell like fruit . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} {gap} that's a good idea ,
Project Manager: Okay , {vocalsound} that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So titanium smell like fruit .
Marketing: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So what about location and these things , people are really interesting on those features ? Or they really like {disfmarker} They more want these fancy features
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} I think i
Industrial Designer: like {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah i it's again in this uh what I said first it has to be fancy so I think if nobody else pro provides currently a remote control with that kind of stuff and if we can provide it I think it's a good sell for us
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Feature {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: because we have it
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and others don't .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: It's fancy . Whether it's useful or not doesn't seem to be very important . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I I agree with uh this uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Now we have to decide on what kind of fanciness . Do we take titanium smelling like fruit , or do we make spongy uh fruity-like
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh we will try to explore these two options
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe you could explore the two option .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm . Could we make a titanium shape ? I mean {gap} fruit-shaped .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah at least like we can make banana or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Don't you say that you cannot do double shape {disfmarker} uh curved shape {disfmarker}
User Interface: But {disfmarker} Doub double-curved .
Industrial Designer: yeah it's it's
Marketing: Mm . Seems to be {gap} .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah that's a {disfmarker} we're to look for {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: and and s we're to see the {disfmarker} whether rubber is expensive
User Interface: Okay , okay . In fact I just agreed to make uh to make the {disfmarker} like titanium panels on a whole rubber body .
Industrial Designer: and d Hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-mm . Okay , so
User Interface: Well , okay w we'll see .
Project Manager: you explore now that you're going to work together these these two .
User Interface: Yeah
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Or or spongy an yeah . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Maybe we can have two different {gap} assembly also like one spongy and one kind of titanium .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {gap} we have only the plastic or the {disfmarker} the chippy {disfmarker} yeah fibre chips or {disfmarker}
User Interface: We'll see . We'll see .
Marketing: If you have time .
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah I don't think w I think we have to choose . If we choose uh titanium or if we choose spongy
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: but uh it cannot be both .
User Interface: We'll see . I I really don't like this modelling clay 'cause you know it makes some {gap} for for
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} For creation .
User Interface: I dunno uh {disfmarker} yeah um
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: we'll look .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah you can pretend that it's uh titanium . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Even design . {vocalsound}
Marketing: You can paint it afterward {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , okay .
Marketing: No problem . We have a very large department of {vocalsound} paint .
Project Manager: Yeah , do don't worry , you you {vocalsound} you speak with {disfmarker} mm mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} You will do it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Alright , alright .
Project Manager: Okay . So explore a shape .
Industrial Designer: So still we want to keep L_C_D_ ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm I think it's what we say , that we have an uh an L_C_D_ with uh information .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Not uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: The thing is that uh if we want to have as he says {disfmarker} if we want to have uh a small number of buttons we need to have a kind of output that says currently what their actions are .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , then we can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} user friendly
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: That's the converse to having zillions of button
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: where each button does only one thing .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and we just stick with two batteries so it's not any solar or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah j yeah ,
Marketing: Classical , we stay classical in that we don't reinvent uh the wheel .
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Anyway it's very {disfmarker} in general I think people uh change T_V_ more often than batteries of their remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So . {vocalsound} Because the trend goes faster than the life of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it's {gap} very {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . So
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: are we {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we're done .
Marketing: We're done .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So see you in thirty minutes .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Query:
Summarize the discussion about industrial components.
Answer:
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The industrial designer provided several options respectively for energy, material and interface. Among these options, the industrial designer preferred traditional battery, titanium and simple push buttons so that they would have enough money for speech recognition. After that, the user interface designer proposed an LCD display only for output, which might be taken into account. The group also talked about how to enable the users to find their controllers.
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... [The rest of the transcript is omitted]
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va-sq-57_0
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Project Manager: Okay , so now we are on the conceptual design meeting . {vocalsound} Uh y getting close to the last
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: is the penultim meeting . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: How was lunch ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm great . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Thanks {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Don't be sarcastic . {vocalsound} Mark . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {vocalsound} um I will again do the secretary part uh we will have three presentation first um uh the industrial design , first Rama then Mark and then Sammy .
Marketing: Uh Rama .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ramaro .
Project Manager: Um um we have to take a decision on the control {disfmarker} remote control concepts and we have forty minutes .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: So what we want to {disfmarker} the decision we want to take on this meeting are on the um first on the component concept , so what kind of energy we use uh what kind of chip on print and one ki kind of case . And also on user interface concept uh what kind of interface we use and if there is some supplements . And at the end um Sammy will give um {vocalsound} a trend watching on what he's {disfmarker} he's been doing . It's {disfmarker} So , let's go . First with Rama . Participant two .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , participant two . Component .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yep . So we're to mainly design f mainly need to know which components we'll use for energy , and the material and interface . For energy there are maybe two or three possibilities . First one , we can use simple battery , or we can use {vocalsound} traditional solar cells or {disfmarker} mm and the material we can have plastic , rubber which is good for this R_S_A_
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: and then uh titanium , which can be {disfmarker} which have very good look an and then interface we're to use push buttons or liquid crystal d L_C_D_ display . And we can use some {gap} , moving {gap} kind of thing . So , as we discussed before , we need to {disfmarker} we would like to have some speech recognition s chip in our remote control . So this can be simple kind of programmable chip and {disfmarker} which can use microphone {gap} sensors . And we also want to look at our remote control , so . Still we are looking for possible uh technical uh specifications and how w easy we can do and within our pri range , like we're to {disfmarker} in our twelve Euros or around that . So we are looking for simple devices or simple technology to do the location of remote control in a room or in a house .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , okay .
Industrial Designer: So uh we discussed an {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Excuse me . So we would like to propose battery instead of solar cells and it would be problematic uh to have enough energy with the solar cells
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and so we would like to just use simple battery . And also we want to go for titanium design instead of rubber or {disfmarker} and well the problem is with this design we found that we can't use double-curved shapes .
Marketing: What is a double-curved shape ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Like you can have two curves .
Marketing: Uh-huh .
User Interface: Why ?
Industrial Designer: Uh it's {disfmarker} I think in manufacturing I guess it's problematic . So , we want to go for simple push buttons because it need a simple chip and it's really lesser {disfmarker} uh re really less expensive compared to L_C_D_
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which are uh which needs advanced chip technology and it's more expensive ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: since we want to put some other features such as speech recognition
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: we want to reduce uh cost .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I want to know why it b uh just uh sorry but for the point before uh why not the rubber , if it is something that it seems to be light .
Marketing: The cost .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} And also like in {disfmarker} if you put a {gap} it's be difficult to do all the moulding of buttons and these things
Project Manager: Okay . You m titanium it's more uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: W we can use something like you know {vocalsound} the whole body's titanium but there are some rubber or I dunno some rubber parts like
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm like this ?
Project Manager: Yes so mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: to make it feel better and to you know {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like in cell phones recently
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: these {disfmarker} you can {gap} with the rubber in four directions and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . {gap}
Industrial Designer: yeah . But full assembly {disfmarker} We'll use mainly for titanium {gap}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: rubber is expensive
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and also it's bit difficult to do all the shapes uh .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And this push buttons
Project Manager: Uh yeah so
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} we we would like to use push buttons instead of L_C_D_s and so we want to mo I mean we're {gap} we want to put speech recognition so we want to reduce price on this technology and so that we can have enough space or enough money
Project Manager: Okay , s so simple button and uh speech recognition for the more complicated .
Industrial Designer: for {disfmarker} S S
Marketing: Speech {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Y yeah we have simple buttons and speech recognition technology ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay , and still we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker}
User Interface: mm can we still include the L_ L_S_D_ display ?
Marketing: L_C_D_ .
User Interface: L_C_D_ yeah L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Uh l
Marketing: Seems not , it's either L_C_D_ or push-button .
Industrial Designer: So uh
User Interface: No ,
Industrial Designer: it's like a {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's not gonna be a t no touchable but still like a source of information or source for menus .
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah maybe maybe we can see depending on how we'll come up with our full design then if we have enough money or like for and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , so let's try it , let's t
Industrial Designer: because the speech recognition technology will take at least five Euros or {gap} or something so we want to reduce the cost on display
Marketing: {gap} The L_C_D_ would {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: or this inter
Marketing: The display would only be display and not uh touch sensitive you mean .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , it's it's not gonna be a touch pad , uh just a display for giving you information .
Marketing: Just uh for output , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ok Yeah , that can we we can consider ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because like it won't take much money I guess ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , yep .
Project Manager: {gap} Mm .
Industrial Designer: You have any further questions or ?
Marketing: I guess no um . So the batteries uh are going to be very light .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , we're to go for li and now I think we have many options in the market so we can go for small nickel or alkaline batteries
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: for really light batteries and with uh good price .
Marketing: So this device on n that can be used for speech recognition could also be used for just uh the finding it basically , instead of clapping why not just be {disfmarker} ask .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's {disfmarker} then the the one thing we want to know is like because remote control is used for like in the household so it it it will be it {disfmarker} m maybe at least five , six people want to use it so so how to uh uh how to define our re speech recognition
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: whether we want to do s speaker independent or speaker dependent . If we're going for more speaker independent then it would be like again cumbersome and we need really m more technology
Project Manager: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: and so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: for the location . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , if if everybody in the house n {gap} to locate then we're to go for some speaker independent technology or something .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . So let's now go to the {disfmarker} you don't have more question ?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: No , it's okay .
Project Manager: Um mm thank you mm .
User Interface: No more questions .
Industrial Designer: Yep . Thank you .
Marketing: Puts less of constraint on what we can do
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm yeah , yeah .
Marketing: but
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: it's always like that . We have dreams and the {disfmarker} in the end we find out that it's not feasible . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , but {disfmarker} mm .
Industrial Designer: Oh . We have uh some limitations {gap} . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Anyway . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: But still uh L_S_D_'s already quite nice ,
Marketing: L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: L_C_ {vocalsound}
Marketing: L_S_D_ is something else ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: and it's quite nice as well . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm an artist , sorry . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So ,
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} yeah .
User Interface: So uh , that's not {disfmarker}
Marketing: go on uh artist . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I hope that's not too much .
Project Manager: Now let's talk about uh interface .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} Uh participant number three .
Project Manager: Three .
Industrial Designer: Three .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh
Project Manager: Which one ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: mm mm uh have a look at this {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: no it's {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {gap} Uh so the concept of the interface . Generally I developed quite a broad concept not only for the interface , but for possible instruction or user's manual and uh all the complex things that come together with your T_V_ and remote controls . So let's start with this . We got our perfect remote control with a lot of buttons
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and uh we got explanation for every button
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and you can use your time and uh it will take i some days to learn all this buttons and um the L_C_D_ is going to be somewhere here and uh go back button , I don't know really where it is , maybe one of this buttons , and um power on and off mm I I don't remember
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so uh it it it should be maybe this button is power on and off ? Or no {gap} ? I can see nothing . So that's our concept . It's called the millennium remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Let's change millenniums . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: maybe you can use {gap} in the end and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} doesn't make sense . This is very {vocalsound} ugly .
User Interface: Really ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I thought you like it . Ah okay
Marketing: Oh no ,
User Interface: just press the button , please uh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: too much concept .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , we will not use this . We will not use this .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But instead of this I will devise {disfmarker} That's our concept .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah , back today . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it's got just few buttons , quite low looking , and all this stuff we already we already discussed .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . 'Kay .
User Interface: And uh what will people say ? They'll say it's perfect . Or what will say ? Uh they will say it's splendid . And uh e everyone will say I'll buy it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {gap} Do you think it can come in several colours ?
User Interface: And everyone's gonna be satisfied .
Marketing: Or did the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I would make a backlight of the L_C_D_ screen with different colours .
Marketing: Um but not the case .
User Interface: Not the case .
Marketing: Uh the case would only be in that uh aluminium uh titanium stuff ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Because apparently from your survey people like colours , no ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , well they like uh something which is uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , so let's remember there's a Nokia phone which changeable panels .
Marketing: Mm yeah , okay ,
User Interface: Do you like it ?
Marketing: so that would be the option . I don't know I don't have a Nokia phone ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: but I don't use that but again , uh I might {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's why you don't have it . That's why ,
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: 'cause it's nasty . {vocalsound}
Marketing: bu but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But it would be expensive , no ? If you use colour L_C_D_ .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Uh instead of that maybe we can change the colour of the assembler .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can just {disfmarker} if users want more colours they can pay more money to get this uh the shapes and they can have different assembly .
User Interface: Um , I am here .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So users have different {disfmarker} I mean they have their own interests , colour interests and so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So we can just {disfmarker} if they want they can just pay another two Euro .
Project Manager: Uh-huh , okay , so
User Interface: 'Kay .
Project Manager: you you propose something with option i that increase the price if we {disfmarker} if you want o more colours {vocalsound} on L_C_D_ ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah yes . If they want like uh {disfmarker} so that we can {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Kind of upgradable uh {vocalsound} remote control .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Wow , wow .
Industrial Designer: Just they'll get few more things and few more colours .
User Interface: Okay , what uh {disfmarker} there's one more decisi uh one more solution in fact , um {vocalsound} 'cause there are some some paints that can change colour according to where they are , like they can reflect different colours depending on what is around , like what colour is around , and depending on the temperature ,
Industrial Designer: Lights , yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: And thermodynamic also . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Like a chameleon .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: We can make it in fact .
Project Manager: Yeah but that's maybe mo too much expensive , yeah .
User Interface: If if if the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But uh it can be in uh maybe in an {disfmarker} a gradable version ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm ,
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because uh I think there are two kinds of people . Those for which the remote control is uh is to be uh something useful uh I'm going to talk about this later but {disfmarker} and those for which is something that that that uh is uh specific to them so it it's like a signature . My remote control is pink . Nobody else than me has a pink remote control .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And that makes me special .
Project Manager: Okay
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and you think that we don't have to make to make them pay more because of {vocalsound} uh o or this is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think I think they would be ready p ready to pay more for that .
Project Manager: Okay , so
Marketing: Those who wanted to have it pink .
Project Manager: so {vocalsound} i it's not uh a s base service
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No mm no .
Project Manager: it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: So ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: {gap} be an option ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: It might be optional , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: But those people will be really few , no ? So like we can {gap} those {disfmarker}
Marketing: The the young people the young people want to be different from their friends .
Industrial Designer: Ah .
Marketing: Although similar but have something just slightly better . Pink {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So m so
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: maybe that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if that it's a selling point maybe it has to be the base .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah ,
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: yeah . But you know if you want to be different you just take your remote control with you all the time .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And you'll be different .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And it makes you different ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: you know ?
Marketing: You always have your remote .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh in the train uh , hello uh no . {vocalsound} Want to change my neighbour .
User Interface: Anyone has their remote controls here ?
Marketing: Oh , you don't ? {vocalsound} Yeah . You don't have your remo {vocalsound}
User Interface: No ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wh you you know like for instance take the iPod . It's a kind of remote control . {vocalsound} Uh it's white
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and it's so white that you see it from any anywhere .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: It has this distinctive look and feel and look {gap} which people seems to like {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: just because it's {vocalsound} a colour that we don't usually see in a remote control . White .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh-huh , uh-huh . Could we integrate something into our remote control , something like light ?
Marketing: Seems important .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: That they can use it in darkness , like . Hand light ,
Marketing: Mm {gap} glow in the dark ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: maybe like the infrared like we can put some radium chips or something
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so that like {disfmarker} at least um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Iradium ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah sorry . Mm .
Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . S well ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: let's go on maybe with the presentation .
Marketing: Yeah . Uh-huh , yeah sure . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: And um the remote control's going to be smart
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: but how smart should it be to not to complicate things too much ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I dunno
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that's a question to you and to mm to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well so I heard that uh it seems that speech recognition is something that can be done uh so that's the smartness of the thing .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Currently we don't have guns with speech recognition or uh beer cans with speech recognition
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but we may have remote controls with speech recognition .
User Interface: Okay , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm , that's a nice world . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So just just just just think about it um .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} Thank you .
Marketing: Don't touch the remote .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} yeah . Are are you saying here that uh the remote controls should be aware of who is using it ? So for instance the young guy would not be able to use it because his father doesn't want .
User Interface: Uh yeah I just want to say it should be real smart .
Marketing: Like with some {disfmarker} Maybe fingerprint recognition or {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Voice recognition is quite tough . I say don't use it , and the control just looks .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: 'Cause I ordered jus To l to l lock it .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Mm .
Industrial Designer: Uh that {disfmarker} mm that could be feasible I guess , like {disfmarker} So since we have {disfmarker} we want to do some speaker dependent speech recognition uh so we can use {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . So it could be smart in that way .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm . Okay .
Marketing: But for instance th I I'm thinking about the other uh uh particularity that the the remote control could have . S since it it knows who is using it , it might also record the kind of uh channels you are u more often using and uh levels of volumes that you're more often uh {disfmarker} things like that
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah , sure .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and provide you ways of using them , I dunno , somehow ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I dunno , that might be expensive
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but
Industrial Designer: Uh it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: that might also be a good sales pitch again .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} The remote that knows you . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay , thanks .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: My turn ?
Project Manager: yeah , Marketing Expert .
Marketing: {gap} Okay , it's alright .
Project Manager: Participant two ?
Industrial Designer: Four .
Project Manager: Four ,
Marketing: Four , I think .
Project Manager: sorry .
Marketing: Trend , yeah . No uh yes . Okay , so I'm going to talk about trends and um I hope this can help us to to understand l how we should design our remote control . So , next slide please . So first maybe just a small recap on {vocalsound} how how do we watch trends so it's not so uh simple you might think that it's easy but uh it's not so simple . Anyway these days uh the best uh source of information is the web as you know , so have to to go often on the web and look at uh what the others are doing , and ask real people who are using real remote controls every day uh or any other tool that is similar to a remote control which basically is a small device that people {gap} have with them , always , like a phone . We can we can use the phone as a as a good uh uh {vocalsound} example of where to in be inspired . Of course those tha d who are watching the trends are also {disfmarker} have also to be inspired because in fact they're not only watching the trends , they're inventing it , they're creating the trend . I hope I'm going to try to help you on that . This is more risky because you're not following the trend ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: you try to invent it , which means either you succeed and you make a lot of money or you don't and you're out of business . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So anyway uh next slide please . {vocalsound} Uh to be to be quick {vocalsound} there's a lot of words here but uh basically there are {disfmarker} uh in in the market of of remote controls there are three aspects that we should very {disfmarker} pay much attention to . The first one , which seems to be the most important one , is that it has to be fancy , it has to have a fancy look and feel . And uh interestingly this is the very most important thing . It has to be fancy . Strangely enough it's more important to be fancy than to be wi and now that's the second thing it has to be , it has to be technologically i innovative ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: it has to be new with some of uh new uh technology inside and uh and this is also uh more important than the last thing which we w may think that would have been the most important , which is that it should be easy to use and it should be easy to use as a remote control . So as you see uh {vocalsound} it first have to be very nice , s something that people are proud of uh uh that i uh they can be id identified with uh and and then uh something that um contains very novel stuff that they can talk about with their friends , huh , mine has this and not yours . And finally of course it has to be useful as a remote control but it seems that it's not so important that it's useful as a remote control . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Next slide please .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Uh and now in a more uh general uh uh broad way of seeing th uh the thing . If we look back and not uh look at only remote controls I think it's important to see that the trends are quite the same in many areas so {disfmarker} currently the the trends that we see in l in l big cities like Paris and Milan , well , it seems that this year things should have uh a fruit and vegetable uh way of {vocalsound} of look or feel
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: or so . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And I think of course uh {vocalsound} i it applies to everything . That's the thing with trends . {vocalsound} It it can travel f from clothe to furniture {vocalsound} same idea .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fruit and vegetable . Think fruit and vegetable . {vocalsound} And uh if we co we compare to last year , now it has to be spongy ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: What is spongy ?
Marketing: yeah . Well
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Marketing: this {vocalsound} so so I think uh uh i
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} kind of um maybe {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: When we were talking about rubber ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think uh the rubber aspect might be important because it's what is probably more feasible in terms of sponginess .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: S So maybe titanium it's not a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap} We need to think about {disfmarker} mm mm .
Marketing: Seems not , seems not .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} sorry Mark .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It seems to be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think more of uh something in the colours of uh like fruit and vegetables and spongy ,
Industrial Designer: Fruit . Even shape ?
Marketing: as a {disfmarker} even in the shape it has to be more round and uh more uh uh look natural somehow . I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} More {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: And not those futuristic uh remote control with angles and uh and titanium like .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Mm .
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound} You're old-fashioned .
Marketing: So that's what people seem to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah i I know it's quite far from what you thought
Project Manager: Sorry . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but that's that's fashion and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay that's all I have to say .
Project Manager: Mm you have questions ?
Industrial Designer: So these abilities are mainly ad addressed by young people ? Or it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: These {disfmarker} I'm sorry .
Industrial Designer: This {disfmarker} you you {gap} so did you {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah we have people uh uh listening to the trends everywhere in the world , of course ,
Industrial Designer: Where ? Oh . Oh , okay , mm-hmm .
Marketing: as you know our company is quite big and uh so I'm just asking them what are the current trends according to them when they go in the stores and when they ask uh their uh friends
Industrial Designer: It's not from {disfmarker} mm . Mm-hmm . Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: that are also {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's more general trend
Marketing: well .
Industrial Designer: it's not particular to the remote control .
Marketing: No , it's not it's not {disfmarker} this this is very general , yeah . But it seems that trends travel across things .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: The {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but some materials n they're to be uh they're to be something like solid like they can't be really spongy
Marketing: Sure .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah .
Marketing: We have to {disfmarker} I think we have to have the look of fruit and vegetables
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah sponge , yeah yeah at least that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: but we still have to put our chips inside , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of course .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah
Marketing: This is your problem .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} yeah yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} This is not mine . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , looking {disfmarker} yeah fruit . These things can be easily incorporated . We can have t colours or this shape
Marketing: Yeah , I think in the colours and in the uh the kind of material .
Industrial Designer: or at least {disfmarker}
Marketing: If if it's something like rubber made or {disfmarker} I think it it's also going to be good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay ?
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No more question ? Okay .
Marketing: Yep . Thanks .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . Okay , so we will have uh next meeting in thirty minutes again . Um now you have to go straight on this individual action which i which are for Rama uh wil design ,
Industrial Designer: Look and feel de
Project Manager: um Mark the user interface design , and uh Sammy uh the product evaluation . {vocalsound} Uh you will work together uh on a new on on a prototype using modelling clay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Hmm . Mm sounds interesting . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm um and I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} as always your personal coach will send you specific instruction .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Thanks . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So , can we highlight the specific features of our {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah you're right , you have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah , so so we want the speech recogniser and we want some kind of buttons and we want some themes like fruits or vegetables ,
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you say s
Industrial Designer: we want to follow general trend .
Marketing: Spongy .
Project Manager: S
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: do we agree on that ? Yeah . We have to .
Industrial Designer: So , do you think {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No , we don't have to ,
User Interface: So we have to uh for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No . {vocalsound}
Marketing: but seems it's the trend .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Yeah .
Marketing: Again , as I said we can also try to make it , to create the trend .
User Interface: yeah so are we confident enough on creating trends ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So there's no {disfmarker} Well , that's {disfmarker} you t can try to convince us .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , we can make it smell like fruit . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} {gap} that's a good idea ,
Project Manager: Okay , {vocalsound} that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So titanium smell like fruit .
Marketing: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So what about location and these things , people are really interesting on those features ? Or they really like {disfmarker} They more want these fancy features
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} I think i
Industrial Designer: like {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah i it's again in this uh what I said first it has to be fancy so I think if nobody else pro provides currently a remote control with that kind of stuff and if we can provide it I think it's a good sell for us
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Feature {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: because we have it
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and others don't .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: It's fancy . Whether it's useful or not doesn't seem to be very important . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I I agree with uh this uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Now we have to decide on what kind of fanciness . Do we take titanium smelling like fruit , or do we make spongy uh fruity-like
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh we will try to explore these two options
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe you could explore the two option .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm . Could we make a titanium shape ? I mean {gap} fruit-shaped .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah at least like we can make banana or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Don't you say that you cannot do double shape {disfmarker} uh curved shape {disfmarker}
User Interface: But {disfmarker} Doub double-curved .
Industrial Designer: yeah it's it's
Marketing: Mm . Seems to be {gap} .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah that's a {disfmarker} we're to look for {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: and and s we're to see the {disfmarker} whether rubber is expensive
User Interface: Okay , okay . In fact I just agreed to make uh to make the {disfmarker} like titanium panels on a whole rubber body .
Industrial Designer: and d Hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-mm . Okay , so
User Interface: Well , okay w we'll see .
Project Manager: you explore now that you're going to work together these these two .
User Interface: Yeah
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Or or spongy an yeah . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Maybe we can have two different {gap} assembly also like one spongy and one kind of titanium .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {gap} we have only the plastic or the {disfmarker} the chippy {disfmarker} yeah fibre chips or {disfmarker}
User Interface: We'll see . We'll see .
Marketing: If you have time .
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah I don't think w I think we have to choose . If we choose uh titanium or if we choose spongy
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: but uh it cannot be both .
User Interface: We'll see . I I really don't like this modelling clay 'cause you know it makes some {gap} for for
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} For creation .
User Interface: I dunno uh {disfmarker} yeah um
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: we'll look .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah you can pretend that it's uh titanium . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Even design . {vocalsound}
Marketing: You can paint it afterward {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , okay .
Marketing: No problem . We have a very large department of {vocalsound} paint .
Project Manager: Yeah , do don't worry , you you {vocalsound} you speak with {disfmarker} mm mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} You will do it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Alright , alright .
Project Manager: Okay . So explore a shape .
Industrial Designer: So still we want to keep L_C_D_ ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm I think it's what we say , that we have an uh an L_C_D_ with uh information .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Not uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: The thing is that uh if we want to have as he says {disfmarker} if we want to have uh a small number of buttons we need to have a kind of output that says currently what their actions are .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , then we can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} user friendly
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: That's the converse to having zillions of button
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: where each button does only one thing .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and we just stick with two batteries so it's not any solar or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah j yeah ,
Marketing: Classical , we stay classical in that we don't reinvent uh the wheel .
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Anyway it's very {disfmarker} in general I think people uh change T_V_ more often than batteries of their remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So . {vocalsound} Because the trend goes faster than the life of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it's {gap} very {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . So
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: are we {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we're done .
Marketing: We're done .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So see you in thirty minutes .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Query:
What did the marketing learn about the trend?
Answer:
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The marketing found that trends were quite the same in many areas. Take this year's fruit and vegetable as an example, it applies to everything from clothing to furniture, which meant it was quite general. It might be surprising that people liked products that looked natural and round rather than some futuristic remote control with angles and titanium.
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Project Manager: Okay , so now we are on the conceptual design meeting . {vocalsound} Uh y getting close to the last
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: is the penultim meeting . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: How was lunch ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm great . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Thanks {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Don't be sarcastic . {vocalsound} Mark . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {vocalsound} um I will again do the secretary part uh we will have three presentation first um uh the industrial design , first Rama then Mark and then Sammy .
Marketing: Uh Rama .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ramaro .
Project Manager: Um um we have to take a decision on the control {disfmarker} remote control concepts and we have forty minutes .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: So what we want to {disfmarker} the decision we want to take on this meeting are on the um first on the component concept , so what kind of energy we use uh what kind of chip on print and one ki kind of case . And also on user interface concept uh what kind of interface we use and if there is some supplements . And at the end um Sammy will give um {vocalsound} a trend watching on what he's {disfmarker} he's been doing . It's {disfmarker} So , let's go . First with Rama . Participant two .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , participant two . Component .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yep . So we're to mainly design f mainly need to know which components we'll use for energy , and the material and interface . For energy there are maybe two or three possibilities . First one , we can use simple battery , or we can use {vocalsound} traditional solar cells or {disfmarker} mm and the material we can have plastic , rubber which is good for this R_S_A_
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: and then uh titanium , which can be {disfmarker} which have very good look an and then interface we're to use push buttons or liquid crystal d L_C_D_ display . And we can use some {gap} , moving {gap} kind of thing . So , as we discussed before , we need to {disfmarker} we would like to have some speech recognition s chip in our remote control . So this can be simple kind of programmable chip and {disfmarker} which can use microphone {gap} sensors . And we also want to look at our remote control , so . Still we are looking for possible uh technical uh specifications and how w easy we can do and within our pri range , like we're to {disfmarker} in our twelve Euros or around that . So we are looking for simple devices or simple technology to do the location of remote control in a room or in a house .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , okay .
Industrial Designer: So uh we discussed an {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Excuse me . So we would like to propose battery instead of solar cells and it would be problematic uh to have enough energy with the solar cells
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and so we would like to just use simple battery . And also we want to go for titanium design instead of rubber or {disfmarker} and well the problem is with this design we found that we can't use double-curved shapes .
Marketing: What is a double-curved shape ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Like you can have two curves .
Marketing: Uh-huh .
User Interface: Why ?
Industrial Designer: Uh it's {disfmarker} I think in manufacturing I guess it's problematic . So , we want to go for simple push buttons because it need a simple chip and it's really lesser {disfmarker} uh re really less expensive compared to L_C_D_
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: which are uh which needs advanced chip technology and it's more expensive ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: since we want to put some other features such as speech recognition
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: we want to reduce uh cost .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I want to know why it b uh just uh sorry but for the point before uh why not the rubber , if it is something that it seems to be light .
Marketing: The cost .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} And also like in {disfmarker} if you put a {gap} it's be difficult to do all the moulding of buttons and these things
Project Manager: Okay . You m titanium it's more uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} Yeah .
User Interface: W we can use something like you know {vocalsound} the whole body's titanium but there are some rubber or I dunno some rubber parts like
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm like this ?
Project Manager: Yes so mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: to make it feel better and to you know {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Like in cell phones recently
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: these {disfmarker} you can {gap} with the rubber in four directions and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay . {gap}
Industrial Designer: yeah . But full assembly {disfmarker} We'll use mainly for titanium {gap}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: rubber is expensive
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and also it's bit difficult to do all the shapes uh .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: And this push buttons
Project Manager: Uh yeah so
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} we we would like to use push buttons instead of L_C_D_s and so we want to mo I mean we're {gap} we want to put speech recognition so we want to reduce price on this technology and so that we can have enough space or enough money
Project Manager: Okay , s so simple button and uh speech recognition for the more complicated .
Industrial Designer: for {disfmarker} S S
Marketing: Speech {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Y yeah we have simple buttons and speech recognition technology ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay , and still we have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker}
User Interface: mm can we still include the L_ L_S_D_ display ?
Marketing: L_C_D_ .
User Interface: L_C_D_ yeah L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Uh l
Marketing: Seems not , it's either L_C_D_ or push-button .
Industrial Designer: So uh
User Interface: No ,
Industrial Designer: it's like a {disfmarker}
User Interface: it's not gonna be a t no touchable but still like a source of information or source for menus .
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah maybe maybe we can see depending on how we'll come up with our full design then if we have enough money or like for and {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , so let's try it , let's t
Industrial Designer: because the speech recognition technology will take at least five Euros or {gap} or something so we want to reduce the cost on display
Marketing: {gap} The L_C_D_ would {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: or this inter
Marketing: The display would only be display and not uh touch sensitive you mean .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , it's it's not gonna be a touch pad , uh just a display for giving you information .
Marketing: Just uh for output , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Ok Yeah , that can we we can consider ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because like it won't take much money I guess ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay , yep .
Project Manager: {gap} Mm .
Industrial Designer: You have any further questions or ?
Marketing: I guess no um . So the batteries uh are going to be very light .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , we're to go for li and now I think we have many options in the market so we can go for small nickel or alkaline batteries
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: for really light batteries and with uh good price .
Marketing: So this device on n that can be used for speech recognition could also be used for just uh the finding it basically , instead of clapping why not just be {disfmarker} ask .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's {disfmarker} then the the one thing we want to know is like because remote control is used for like in the household so it it it will be it {disfmarker} m maybe at least five , six people want to use it so so how to uh uh how to define our re speech recognition
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: whether we want to do s speaker independent or speaker dependent . If we're going for more speaker independent then it would be like again cumbersome and we need really m more technology
Project Manager: Okay ,
Industrial Designer: and so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: for the location . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , if if everybody in the house n {gap} to locate then we're to go for some speaker independent technology or something .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . So let's now go to the {disfmarker} you don't have more question ?
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: No , it's okay .
Project Manager: Um mm thank you mm .
User Interface: No more questions .
Industrial Designer: Yep . Thank you .
Marketing: Puts less of constraint on what we can do
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm yeah , yeah .
Marketing: but
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: it's always like that . We have dreams and the {disfmarker} in the end we find out that it's not feasible . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , but {disfmarker} mm .
Industrial Designer: Oh . We have uh some limitations {gap} . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Anyway . {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: But still uh L_S_D_'s already quite nice ,
Marketing: L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: L_C_ {vocalsound}
Marketing: L_S_D_ is something else ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: and it's quite nice as well . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I'm an artist , sorry . {vocalsound}
Marketing: So ,
Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} yeah .
User Interface: So uh , that's not {disfmarker}
Marketing: go on uh artist . {vocalsound}
User Interface: I hope that's not too much .
Project Manager: Now let's talk about uh interface .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} Uh participant number three .
Project Manager: Three .
Industrial Designer: Three .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh
Project Manager: Which one ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: mm mm uh have a look at this {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: no it's {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
User Interface: {gap} Uh so the concept of the interface . Generally I developed quite a broad concept not only for the interface , but for possible instruction or user's manual and uh all the complex things that come together with your T_V_ and remote controls . So let's start with this . We got our perfect remote control with a lot of buttons
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and uh we got explanation for every button
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and you can use your time and uh it will take i some days to learn all this buttons and um the L_C_D_ is going to be somewhere here and uh go back button , I don't know really where it is , maybe one of this buttons , and um power on and off mm I I don't remember
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: so uh it it it should be maybe this button is power on and off ? Or no {gap} ? I can see nothing . So that's our concept . It's called the millennium remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Let's change millenniums . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: maybe you can use {gap} in the end and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} doesn't make sense . This is very {vocalsound} ugly .
User Interface: Really ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I thought you like it . Ah okay
Marketing: Oh no ,
User Interface: just press the button , please uh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: too much concept .
Project Manager: No .
Marketing: Ah .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , we will not use this . We will not use this .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But instead of this I will devise {disfmarker} That's our concept .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Ah , back today . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And it's got just few buttons , quite low looking , and all this stuff we already we already discussed .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . 'Kay .
User Interface: And uh what will people say ? They'll say it's perfect . Or what will say ? Uh they will say it's splendid . And uh e everyone will say I'll buy it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {gap} Do you think it can come in several colours ?
User Interface: And everyone's gonna be satisfied .
Marketing: Or did the {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} I would make a backlight of the L_C_D_ screen with different colours .
Marketing: Um but not the case .
User Interface: Not the case .
Marketing: Uh the case would only be in that uh aluminium uh titanium stuff ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Because apparently from your survey people like colours , no ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , well they like uh something which is uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay , so let's remember there's a Nokia phone which changeable panels .
Marketing: Mm yeah , okay ,
User Interface: Do you like it ?
Marketing: so that would be the option . I don't know I don't have a Nokia phone ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But it's uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: but I don't use that but again , uh I might {disfmarker}
User Interface: That's why you don't have it . That's why ,
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: 'cause it's nasty . {vocalsound}
Marketing: bu but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But it would be expensive , no ? If you use colour L_C_D_ .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: Uh instead of that maybe we can change the colour of the assembler .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Maybe we can just {disfmarker} if users want more colours they can pay more money to get this uh the shapes and they can have different assembly .
User Interface: Um , I am here .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: So users have different {disfmarker} I mean they have their own interests , colour interests and so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So ?
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So we can just {disfmarker} if they want they can just pay another two Euro .
Project Manager: Uh-huh , okay , so
User Interface: 'Kay .
Project Manager: you you propose something with option i that increase the price if we {disfmarker} if you want o more colours {vocalsound} on L_C_D_ ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah yes . If they want like uh {disfmarker} so that we can {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Kind of upgradable uh {vocalsound} remote control .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Wow , wow .
Industrial Designer: Just they'll get few more things and few more colours .
User Interface: Okay , what uh {disfmarker} there's one more decisi uh one more solution in fact , um {vocalsound} 'cause there are some some paints that can change colour according to where they are , like they can reflect different colours depending on what is around , like what colour is around , and depending on the temperature ,
Industrial Designer: Lights , yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: And thermodynamic also . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Like a chameleon .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .
User Interface: We can make it in fact .
Project Manager: Yeah but that's maybe mo too much expensive , yeah .
User Interface: If if if the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: okay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: But uh it can be in uh maybe in an {disfmarker} a gradable version ,
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm ,
Project Manager: but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: so {disfmarker}
Marketing: Because uh I think there are two kinds of people . Those for which the remote control is uh is to be uh something useful uh I'm going to talk about this later but {disfmarker} and those for which is something that that that uh is uh specific to them so it it's like a signature . My remote control is pink . Nobody else than me has a pink remote control .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And that makes me special .
Project Manager: Okay
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and you think that we don't have to make to make them pay more because of {vocalsound} uh o or this is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think I think they would be ready p ready to pay more for that .
Project Manager: Okay , so
Marketing: Those who wanted to have it pink .
Project Manager: so {vocalsound} i it's not uh a s base service
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: No mm no .
Project Manager: it's a {disfmarker}
User Interface: So ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: {gap} be an option ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: yeah .
Marketing: It might be optional , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: But those people will be really few , no ? So like we can {gap} those {disfmarker}
Marketing: The the young people the young people want to be different from their friends .
Industrial Designer: Ah .
Marketing: Although similar but have something just slightly better . Pink {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So m so
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: maybe that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if that it's a selling point maybe it has to be the base .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah ,
Marketing: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: yeah . But you know if you want to be different you just take your remote control with you all the time .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} And you'll be different .
User Interface: {vocalsound} And it makes you different ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: you know ?
Marketing: You always have your remote .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh in the train uh , hello uh no . {vocalsound} Want to change my neighbour .
User Interface: Anyone has their remote controls here ?
Marketing: Oh , you don't ? {vocalsound} Yeah . You don't have your remo {vocalsound}
User Interface: No ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wh you you know like for instance take the iPod . It's a kind of remote control . {vocalsound} Uh it's white
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and it's so white that you see it from any anywhere .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: It has this distinctive look and feel and look {gap} which people seems to like {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: just because it's {vocalsound} a colour that we don't usually see in a remote control . White .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Uh-huh , uh-huh . Could we integrate something into our remote control , something like light ?
Marketing: Seems important .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: That they can use it in darkness , like . Hand light ,
Marketing: Mm {gap} glow in the dark ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Marketing: so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: maybe like the infrared like we can put some radium chips or something
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so that like {disfmarker} at least um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Iradium ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah sorry . Mm .
Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So mm {disfmarker}
User Interface: Okay . S well ,
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: let's go on maybe with the presentation .
Marketing: Yeah . Uh-huh , yeah sure . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: And um the remote control's going to be smart
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: but how smart should it be to not to complicate things too much ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: And uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I dunno
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: that's a question to you and to mm to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Well so I heard that uh it seems that speech recognition is something that can be done uh so that's the smartness of the thing .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Currently we don't have guns with speech recognition or uh beer cans with speech recognition
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but we may have remote controls with speech recognition .
User Interface: Okay , okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm , that's a nice world . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} So just just just just think about it um .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} Thank you .
Marketing: Don't touch the remote .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: But {disfmarker} yeah . Are are you saying here that uh the remote controls should be aware of who is using it ? So for instance the young guy would not be able to use it because his father doesn't want .
User Interface: Uh yeah I just want to say it should be real smart .
Marketing: Like with some {disfmarker} Maybe fingerprint recognition or {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Voice recognition is quite tough . I say don't use it , and the control just looks .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: 'Cause I ordered jus To l to l lock it .
Marketing: Um {disfmarker} Mm .
Industrial Designer: Uh that {disfmarker} mm that could be feasible I guess , like {disfmarker} So since we have {disfmarker} we want to do some speaker dependent speech recognition uh so we can use {disfmarker}
Marketing: Okay . So it could be smart in that way .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm . Okay .
Marketing: But for instance th I I'm thinking about the other uh uh particularity that the the remote control could have . S since it it knows who is using it , it might also record the kind of uh channels you are u more often using and uh levels of volumes that you're more often uh {disfmarker} things like that
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah , sure .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and provide you ways of using them , I dunno , somehow ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I dunno , that might be expensive
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: but
Industrial Designer: Uh it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: that might also be a good sales pitch again .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} The remote that knows you . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Okay , thanks .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: My turn ?
Project Manager: yeah , Marketing Expert .
Marketing: {gap} Okay , it's alright .
Project Manager: Participant two ?
Industrial Designer: Four .
Project Manager: Four ,
Marketing: Four , I think .
Project Manager: sorry .
Marketing: Trend , yeah . No uh yes . Okay , so I'm going to talk about trends and um I hope this can help us to to understand l how we should design our remote control . So , next slide please . So first maybe just a small recap on {vocalsound} how how do we watch trends so it's not so uh simple you might think that it's easy but uh it's not so simple . Anyway these days uh the best uh source of information is the web as you know , so have to to go often on the web and look at uh what the others are doing , and ask real people who are using real remote controls every day uh or any other tool that is similar to a remote control which basically is a small device that people {gap} have with them , always , like a phone . We can we can use the phone as a as a good uh uh {vocalsound} example of where to in be inspired . Of course those tha d who are watching the trends are also {disfmarker} have also to be inspired because in fact they're not only watching the trends , they're inventing it , they're creating the trend . I hope I'm going to try to help you on that . This is more risky because you're not following the trend ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: you try to invent it , which means either you succeed and you make a lot of money or you don't and you're out of business . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So anyway uh next slide please . {vocalsound} Uh to be to be quick {vocalsound} there's a lot of words here but uh basically there are {disfmarker} uh in in the market of of remote controls there are three aspects that we should very {disfmarker} pay much attention to . The first one , which seems to be the most important one , is that it has to be fancy , it has to have a fancy look and feel . And uh interestingly this is the very most important thing . It has to be fancy . Strangely enough it's more important to be fancy than to be wi and now that's the second thing it has to be , it has to be technologically i innovative ,
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: it has to be new with some of uh new uh technology inside and uh and this is also uh more important than the last thing which we w may think that would have been the most important , which is that it should be easy to use and it should be easy to use as a remote control . So as you see uh {vocalsound} it first have to be very nice , s something that people are proud of uh uh that i uh they can be id identified with uh and and then uh something that um contains very novel stuff that they can talk about with their friends , huh , mine has this and not yours . And finally of course it has to be useful as a remote control but it seems that it's not so important that it's useful as a remote control . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Next slide please .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Uh and now in a more uh general uh uh broad way of seeing th uh the thing . If we look back and not uh look at only remote controls I think it's important to see that the trends are quite the same in many areas so {disfmarker} currently the the trends that we see in l in l big cities like Paris and Milan , well , it seems that this year things should have uh a fruit and vegetable uh way of {vocalsound} of look or feel
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: or so . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And I think of course uh {vocalsound} i it applies to everything . That's the thing with trends . {vocalsound} It it can travel f from clothe to furniture {vocalsound} same idea .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Fruit and vegetable . Think fruit and vegetable . {vocalsound} And uh if we co we compare to last year , now it has to be spongy ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: What is spongy ?
Marketing: yeah . Well
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Marketing: this {vocalsound} so so I think uh uh i
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} kind of um maybe {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: When we were talking about rubber ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah it {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think uh the rubber aspect might be important because it's what is probably more feasible in terms of sponginess .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: S So maybe titanium it's not a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap} We need to think about {disfmarker} mm mm .
Marketing: Seems not , seems not .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} sorry Mark .
Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It seems to be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Think more of uh something in the colours of uh like fruit and vegetables and spongy ,
Industrial Designer: Fruit . Even shape ?
Marketing: as a {disfmarker} even in the shape it has to be more round and uh more uh uh look natural somehow . I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} More {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Industrial Designer: yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: And not those futuristic uh remote control with angles and uh and titanium like .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Mm .
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound} You're old-fashioned .
Marketing: So that's what people seem to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah i I know it's quite far from what you thought
Project Manager: Sorry . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but that's that's fashion and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Okay that's all I have to say .
Project Manager: Mm you have questions ?
Industrial Designer: So these abilities are mainly ad addressed by young people ? Or it's {disfmarker}
Marketing: These {disfmarker} I'm sorry .
Industrial Designer: This {disfmarker} you you {gap} so did you {gap} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , yeah we have people uh uh listening to the trends everywhere in the world , of course ,
Industrial Designer: Where ? Oh . Oh , okay , mm-hmm .
Marketing: as you know our company is quite big and uh so I'm just asking them what are the current trends according to them when they go in the stores and when they ask uh their uh friends
Industrial Designer: It's not from {disfmarker} mm . Mm-hmm . Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: that are also {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's more general trend
Marketing: well .
Industrial Designer: it's not particular to the remote control .
Marketing: No , it's not it's not {disfmarker} this this is very general , yeah . But it seems that trends travel across things .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah .
Marketing: The {disfmarker} what we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah but some materials n they're to be uh they're to be something like solid like they can't be really spongy
Marketing: Sure .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah .
Marketing: We have to {disfmarker} I think we have to have the look of fruit and vegetables
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah sponge , yeah yeah at least that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: but we still have to put our chips inside , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of course .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah
Marketing: This is your problem .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker} yeah yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} This is not mine . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , looking {disfmarker} yeah fruit . These things can be easily incorporated . We can have t colours or this shape
Marketing: Yeah , I think in the colours and in the uh the kind of material .
Industrial Designer: or at least {disfmarker}
Marketing: If if it's something like rubber made or {disfmarker} I think it it's also going to be good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay ?
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No more question ? Okay .
Marketing: Yep . Thanks .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Mm-hmm . Okay , so we will have uh next meeting in thirty minutes again . Um now you have to go straight on this individual action which i which are for Rama uh wil design ,
Industrial Designer: Look and feel de
Project Manager: um Mark the user interface design , and uh Sammy uh the product evaluation . {vocalsound} Uh you will work together uh on a new on on a prototype using modelling clay .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Hmm . Mm sounds interesting . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm um and I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} as always your personal coach will send you specific instruction .
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Thanks . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So , can we highlight the specific features of our {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah you're right , you have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: yeah , so so we want the speech recogniser and we want some kind of buttons and we want some themes like fruits or vegetables ,
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: you say s
Industrial Designer: we want to follow general trend .
Marketing: Spongy .
Project Manager: S
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: do we agree on that ? Yeah . We have to .
Industrial Designer: So , do you think {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No , we don't have to ,
User Interface: So we have to uh for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No . {vocalsound}
Marketing: but seems it's the trend .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Yeah .
Marketing: Again , as I said we can also try to make it , to create the trend .
User Interface: yeah so are we confident enough on creating trends ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So there's no {disfmarker} Well , that's {disfmarker} you t can try to convince us .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well , we can make it smell like fruit . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} {gap} that's a good idea ,
Project Manager: Okay , {vocalsound} that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So titanium smell like fruit .
Marketing: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So what about location and these things , people are really interesting on those features ? Or they really like {disfmarker} They more want these fancy features
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} I think i
Industrial Designer: like {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah i it's again in this uh what I said first it has to be fancy so I think if nobody else pro provides currently a remote control with that kind of stuff and if we can provide it I think it's a good sell for us
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Feature {disfmarker} Yeah .
Marketing: because we have it
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: and others don't .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: It's fancy . Whether it's useful or not doesn't seem to be very important . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I I agree with uh this uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Now we have to decide on what kind of fanciness . Do we take titanium smelling like fruit , or do we make spongy uh fruity-like
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh we will try to explore these two options
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Maybe you could explore the two option .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm . Could we make a titanium shape ? I mean {gap} fruit-shaped .
Project Manager: {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh yeah at least like we can make banana or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Don't you say that you cannot do double shape {disfmarker} uh curved shape {disfmarker}
User Interface: But {disfmarker} Doub double-curved .
Industrial Designer: yeah it's it's
Marketing: Mm . Seems to be {gap} .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah that's a {disfmarker} we're to look for {gap}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Industrial Designer: and and s we're to see the {disfmarker} whether rubber is expensive
User Interface: Okay , okay . In fact I just agreed to make uh to make the {disfmarker} like titanium panels on a whole rubber body .
Industrial Designer: and d Hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-mm . Okay , so
User Interface: Well , okay w we'll see .
Project Manager: you explore now that you're going to work together these these two .
User Interface: Yeah
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Or or spongy an yeah . {gap}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Maybe we can have two different {gap} assembly also like one spongy and one kind of titanium .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {gap} we have only the plastic or the {disfmarker} the chippy {disfmarker} yeah fibre chips or {disfmarker}
User Interface: We'll see . We'll see .
Marketing: If you have time .
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah I don't think w I think we have to choose . If we choose uh titanium or if we choose spongy
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: but uh it cannot be both .
User Interface: We'll see . I I really don't like this modelling clay 'cause you know it makes some {gap} for for
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} For creation .
User Interface: I dunno uh {disfmarker} yeah um
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: we'll look .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Ah you can pretend that it's uh titanium . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Even design . {vocalsound}
Marketing: You can paint it afterward {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay , okay .
Marketing: No problem . We have a very large department of {vocalsound} paint .
Project Manager: Yeah , do don't worry , you you {vocalsound} you speak with {disfmarker} mm mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} You will do it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Alright , alright .
Project Manager: Okay . So explore a shape .
Industrial Designer: So still we want to keep L_C_D_ ? Or {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm I think it's what we say , that we have an uh an L_C_D_ with uh information .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Not uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: The thing is that uh if we want to have as he says {disfmarker} if we want to have uh a small number of buttons we need to have a kind of output that says currently what their actions are .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , then we can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah , that {disfmarker} user friendly
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: That's the converse to having zillions of button
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: where each button does only one thing .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: and we just stick with two batteries so it's not any solar or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah yeah j yeah ,
Marketing: Classical , we stay classical in that we don't reinvent uh the wheel .
Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Anyway it's very {disfmarker} in general I think people uh change T_V_ more often than batteries of their remote control .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} So . {vocalsound} Because the trend goes faster than the life of the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So it's {gap} very {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay . So
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: are we {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we're done .
Marketing: We're done .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So see you in thirty minutes .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Query:
Summarize the discussion about appearance design.
Answer:
|
To follow the trend of fruit and vegetable, there were two options: something in titanium and smelling like fruit, or something spongy and fruity-like. The industrial designer would explore these two choices and he also suggested having two different assemblies, but the project manager said they couldn't have both. The project manager also mentioned another solution - painting the controller to pretend that it was titanium. The group didn't make a final decision.
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... [The rest of the transcript is omitted]
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va-gq-66
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va-gq-66_0
|
You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I'm proud of it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . This is our final meeting , the detailed design meeting . And again I'll take minutes . The {disfmarker} what we have to get through in this meeting is firstly the prototype presentation from you two , so you can show us what you've been working on so diligently .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: It does look very cool .
Project Manager: Um then
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} then Cat's going to present the evaluation criteria that we're going to be evaluating this against .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then I need to say some st a few things about finance , 'cause we have to check that it's within the finance criteria . Um and then we'll be making sure that our product fits both the evaluation criteria from Cat and the financial limits . Um and then we uh will have a brief evaluation of the whole process of production and design that we've been through . So we've got forty minutes . S
Marketing: And then do we get to make a remote control ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Cause we missed out .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: it's now {disfmarker} I guess that we're supposed to start at fifteen thirty five , so we've got until four fifteen .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh . How how much do we have , forty minutes ?
Project Manager: Is that right ?
User Interface: Yeah , about four fifteen , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: until about four fifteen . So yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay , so .
Project Manager: Go for it . Do you want {disfmarker}
User Interface: So , you said um {disfmarker} are are we starting with the the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Presentation .
User Interface: so will you maybe start with like the mm the shape and things and and then I will explain the the user interface th uh things , like the buttons and the scrolling things and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Okay . So um basically going with our trend of vegetables and {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we selected the colour and approximate shape of banana .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} You think bananas are a safe thing to use ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's a bit um phallic .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well , but it's it's just an a approximation . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Dual use , perfect .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Dual use , perfect .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , {vocalsound} {gap} your remote control ? Oh that's just bad . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Does it vibrate when you press the buttons ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um so basically it's the it's the flip open thing again .
Project Manager: Sorry , sorry .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So now we we have the {disfmarker} okay ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: so Ma Maarika will explain you the user interface there . And it flips open on the side , so it opens like that . And we have the user interface o in here
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Wow .
Industrial Designer: and uh {vocalsound} the the L_C_D_ and and the scroll are inside . Um well , everything else is probably user interface , so . Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: And it's {disfmarker} the whole thing's made of rubber , is that {disfmarker}
User Interface: Uh yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh yeah . Yeah , it has , yeah .
User Interface: Rubber .
Marketing: Is it to scale , or do you think you can make it a bit smaller ?
User Interface: Yeah , {gap} . Um it could be made a bit smaller , and and of course it would be {gap} and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} yeah , but um one thing we actually kind of um forgot while designing , that one side was supposed to be rounder ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah ,
User Interface: so we said the back side round , yeah .
Industrial Designer: well , but i since it's made of rubber anyway . I I think it's it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: It l does look like the {gap} curvy
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and then the whole shape's curvy , so I would say that this curvy does look quite like a vegetable .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . And it's spongy as well . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I wasn't very keen on that , but yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So {vocalsound} so uh the user interface as as we discussed last time uh mm on on the {vocalsound} on the cover we just have the very basic things .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Huh . Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So we have that n uh channels here starting from um uh one two three {disfmarker} there would be numbers in in the {disfmarker} on the actual one .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So it's four , up to four , up to seven , up to nine and zero , z zero here .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Six seven eight nine . I like that .
User Interface: Yeah . And then , well this is on off button . It's it's quite standard mm place for it and and also the colour is quite often red , so it's it's kind of user friendly .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And then these ones would be for flipping the channels back and {disfmarker} like the previous one and the next one .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
User Interface: And and we would also have a l little um thing saying here , previous and ne prevon prevon next .
Marketing: So where's the volume ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: The volume is is scrolling .
Industrial Designer: It's on the side .
User Interface: On the side ,
Marketing: Ah , you did get that in then ,
User Interface: this one . Yeah you just do it like this .
Marketing: mm-hmm .
User Interface: And and and it's it's on the back is mm cover or back lid , because if you flip it open , you can still do the scrolling here .
Marketing: Oh okay , {gap} .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: See ? So the volume is {vocalsound} you just scroll , but then once you flip it open , {vocalsound} okay , there there you have the screen
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and and you have the mm {vocalsound} spinning wheel with options to choose .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: You can move back and forth and then if you need to m choose something on the screen , you just push the cen mm the middle button .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Cool . Oh , the thing we forgot was like a mute button .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh no , we we'd not put {gap} {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: A mute button .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so on on the cover we have the the bare essentials .
User Interface: Well , {gap} we'll have this on the screen , on the display .
Project Manager: Y or you could have it {disfmarker} so you {disfmarker} on the wheel if you {disfmarker}
Marketing: On the wheel , like if you hold the wheel down then it will mute .
Industrial Designer: Uh on the L_C_D_ we r you know , the main menu will have various options .
User Interface: Well , but the but the mute {disfmarker} yeah , the scrolling is kind of you have to scroll all the way to make it mute , right ?
Project Manager: But if you hold it in ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah , but it's a scroll and click , isn't it ?
Project Manager: if it's a scroll and click so you hold it in ?
Marketing: Okay , cool .
User Interface: Okay , yeah , okay .
Marketing: So that {gap} that solves the whole mute issue .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} And okay , so i so the the voice recognition is also just part of it .
Project Manager: {gap} no .
User Interface: You can't really see it in the interface .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , it's hidden in there somewhere .
User Interface: Yeah . And we do have the logo on it as well .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , very good .
User Interface: So I think it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And it's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with the the black and yellow you're even in the right colours .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Cool .
User Interface: Yeah , I think um we could do l the logo in grey , as it is on the website .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We ran out of resources here , so . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: In the actual one .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: You can have a look . {vocalsound}
User Interface: So if you have questions .
Project Manager: Very good , let's have a look .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Test it out . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Uh it's a sort of intermediate colour , I guess .
Marketing: Yeah , oh , we hold the remote .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh , but it it does feel all cold and slimy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I hate Play-Do , it's just minging .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But yeah , uh that's cool , cool .
Project Manager: Very good .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Okay , so maybe if we go on to evaluation cri criteria
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: and then we'll there {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , see the budget .
Project Manager: I suspect we're gonna have a couple of minor finance issues , but um we'll se I'm sure we can get around them somehow .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We'll just send all of our manufacturing to some nice poor country
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and cut some of the prices that way .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Wales . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Wales , for example . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Cool , okay . Right , okay . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Fabulous ,
Project Manager: Marketing Expert .
Marketing: yeah . Okay , cool . So what we're gonna do is prefer {disfmarker} prepare the evaluation of the new design . {vocalsound} Um so we're gonna be using a seven point scale ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: so one is , you know , yes , it totally meets with that requirement and seven is , no , it really doesn't , we need to go back and start again . Um , you know . Basically , what I did was I went through all the like user requirements and things that we've done and we've worked on and like made a list of them . Um you know , so that we can evaluate each one and like {disfmarker} so it was about going back to the start and saying oh yeah , we did manage to do that , or oh no , we really forgot about that .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Cool , so these are what they are . Oh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So for each of these we need to give it a one to seven . Is that right ?
Marketing: Yes , I did have A_ , B_ , C_ , and D_ down here , but it seems to have turned into like just bullet points .
Project Manager: Mm dots , never mind .
Marketing: Okay . But if you can imagine that they say A_ , B_ , C_ , and D_ , then that would be really good .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I guess we'll give it maximum points in everything . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , the yeah , it's definitely attractive . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , I agree .
User Interface: Oh , the locatable thing we actually forgot .
Marketing: Well , I thought we'd um kinda said that you'd have a little thing to stick on the T_V_ ?
Project Manager: Yeah , just prepare one now .
User Interface: Yeah . Shall I just prepare it now ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: It will be red , too .
Marketing: Cool . Okay . So , be attractive to look at . That's this one . What do you all say ?
Industrial Designer: So ?
Project Manager: I reckon it {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound} S seven was th the maximum , yeah ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: I I go for seven .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yes .
Marketing: Oh {vocalsound} we're all so proud of the {gap} .
Project Manager: Seven , yeah , it's terribly sexy . Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , so that'll be a seven for A_ .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Could {disfmarker} oh no , you can't whilst that's up there . Okay um uh what I've done on the next page is I've set it up so we just put the marks in .
Project Manager: Ah , okay .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Excellent . Except we can't {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But we can we can {disfmarker}
Marketing: But that's alright .
Project Manager: uh we can if we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I can I can take note uh uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: If you take a note of them , and then I'll put them in in a minute .
Project Manager: then yeah , I'll take a note , it's fine .
Marketing: Okay , so {vocalsound} we're all agreeing on seven for A_ ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Cool , okay . Does it match the operating behaviour of the user ?
Industrial Designer: Um the the only thing that we were considering was that uh this thing is kind of more for right-handed people than for left-handed people ,
Project Manager: I think it does .
User Interface: I would think yes , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . I mean {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so if you're left-handed you're kind of left uh scrolling with your finger .
User Interface: Yeah ,
Project Manager: Alright .
User Interface: so y so we we might do we might want to do like a uh another m {vocalsound} model another another version , which is like exactly the mirror image of this one .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: But that's gonna be a problem ,
Industrial Designer: But then {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: 'cause you don't always have all left-handers or all right-handers in a family .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So bu it's it's not a huge problem ,
Marketing: I th I think it's not {vocalsound} it's not like it's a pen .
Industrial Designer: because i i it is operatable .
User Interface: But then then I think left-handed people are already used to discrimination anyway ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: so they just {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but I mean because it's not like it's a pen , you know , left-handed people can't normally write right-handed ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: but they can normally do most things right-handed ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Right .
Marketing: so I would say it's not such a big issue .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , because I mean anyway , right-handed people would be able to scroll with it ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: I mean you can you can use your finger to to scroll rather than your thumb .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: so i if the majority are right-handed , it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: So I mean that does kind of negate the whole R_S_I_ issue .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: So maybe we need to put {disfmarker} that needs a little bit of investigation , maybe give it a five , I would say ?
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: What do you what do you all think ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Six .
User Interface: Or maybe six , because it's just one one i one among the issues ,
Project Manager: Yeah , I think I think for um {disfmarker}
User Interface: I mean . Yeah .
Project Manager: I mean most people are right-handed , so in {vocalsound} in terms of our greatest target group , I think it's pretty good , but we might want to flag it for management , they want {disfmarker} might want to um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: One more thing is that i
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: It might be a little clumsy when when it opens up , right ,
Project Manager: They {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so it opens on the side . So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: No , yeah , but mm but we have it {vocalsound} nicely {vocalsound} with the hinges here {gap} yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah yeah , I mean {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: So it won't be a problem ,
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So you guys can decide wh whether {disfmarker}
User Interface: it will be {disfmarker} and it will be {disfmarker} it won't be heavy .
Industrial Designer: Oops .
Marketing: I th I think the alternative is flipping from the top .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but we {disfmarker} which makes it kind of really big , yeah .
User Interface: Yeah well yeah ,
Project Manager: The length is gonna be difficu
User Interface: but it's it's a bit long . It's a little bit long .
Marketing: Yeah um {disfmarker}
User Interface: Well , I mean it can be opened like this of course and yeah .
Marketing: But you were thinking about making it smaller , yeah ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh this this kind of uh makes it more {gap}
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Because {disfmarker}
User Interface: S uh slightly smaller .
Industrial Designer: and two , it might interfere with the I_R_ channel .
Marketing: So you have to keep that side flat .
User Interface: Yeah , but if we flip it open only as much as that .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: So it works like a mobile phone flipping , but y you know , as long as that side's flat , than that will work .
Industrial Designer: Right . Okay .
Marketing: Okay . Um {vocalsound} okay , so C_ . Are are we admitting defeat on C_ or are we saying we're gonna stick a locator on the T_V_ ?
Industrial Designer: No , we have a locator .
Project Manager: No , we're gonna put it like {disfmarker} we've got th there's the locator dot .
Marketing: There's a locator . Cool , so that means you need a {disfmarker} that does mean you need a little speaker on it though ,
User Interface: Mm that you stick on T_V_ .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: doesn't it ? To make it beep .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Or a buzzer .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah well w but l but the speak sample speaker is included , so it it has some capacity to mm to do some {disfmarker} to make some sounds , so {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: So that's two , so that's seven , yeah . It's locatable ?
User Interface: Yep .
Marketing: Fabulous . D_ .
Industrial Designer: Intuitive , completely intuitive . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . If {vocalsound} uh uh if this means intuitive , if it means the way people kind of are used to finding things
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: and it's {disfmarker} I th I think it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'd say six , 'cause the {disfmarker} I mean the the standard layout for numbers is three three three and one , rather than the way you've got it . I really like the way you have it ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: but it's not the immediate thing that you're used to .
Industrial Designer: Intuitive .
Marketing: Yeah , and I mean d
Industrial Designer: And uh even the scroll , it's a it's a new technology
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so m m might be a little more difficult for people to get used to in the beginni
Project Manager: Might be {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: so it is kind of not very intuitive but uh it's a good technology , I mean once they get used to it .
Project Manager: But it {disfmarker} and it's something that they will be experiencing in a lot of different places soon .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: So , should we maybe say f a five
Industrial Designer: So l
Marketing: and say it is intuitive ,
Project Manager: Five ?
Marketing: but it's different , so , do you know , I mean it's obvious how to use it ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: but you might have to think about it first . So we give that one a five , you think ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , okay . I'm gonna give a seven in everything , so . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: I'm happy with five ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I'm glad you're accepting this . It has taken a little while , hasn't it ? Um intuitive but {disfmarker} Sorry , it's really hard to write on those .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I just went a bit mad , didn't I ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um okay , cool , E_ , okay . Um I would guess this comes back from this whole B_ thing links in here , so possibly for left-handed . Investigate .
Project Manager: Yep . But otherwise it's superb .
Marketing: So , should we give it a six ?
Project Manager: Six .
Marketing: Six ?
User Interface: Um uh the ergonom ergonomic design {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: well mm I mean I d uh I dunno , I mean the the repetitive stress things ,
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: but then who would be really pushing the buttons so much on the on the remote control anyway ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , unless you are a all the time sitting .
User Interface: yeah ? See .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , so it's kinda {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I I think it is ergonomic .
Marketing: I used to send fifty texts a day , you know ,
Project Manager: Well we've banned them from {disfmarker}
Marketing: and I never got repetitive strain injury from that ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah .
Marketing: so I find it quite hard to believe to be honest .
Industrial Designer: And moreover it it has um {vocalsound} L_C_D_ and everything ,
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so that uh you know uh we minimise the pressing of the buttons anyway .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , it's varied .
Marketing: Okay , so we give that a six ,
Project Manager: Yeah . Six ?
Marketing: yeah . Okay , F_ .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , {gap} {disfmarker} it does have {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Absolutely .
Project Manager: Voice control have seven .
Marketing: Hang on , how come it's showing up with the things there but it only had bullet points there ? That's just {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah , that's the second one . So you must have changed it on this one where it's got score , but not on the previous slide .
Marketing: Oh okay , cool . Um {vocalsound} right , so {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: So it has voice control .
Marketing: Yes , so that's a seven then .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Marketing: Um , cool .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: G_ technologically innovative .
Industrial Designer: Anyway it ha yeah ,
User Interface: Technologi {gap} well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: it's the most sophisticated remote that I ever seen . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} But in terms of the actual technology , none of it is actually new .
User Interface: Yeah . Well mm we have we have the sample speaker as well , which is {disfmarker} yeah , it's kind of new .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , but I mean you don't {disfmarker}
Project Manager: All of the components have been used in other things before .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but they've been brought together in a remote .
User Interface: But at the same time they are all they are all relatively new .
Marketing: They're never been used i they've never been using remote remote control before I don't think .
Project Manager: But do {disfmarker} yeah , yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: {gap} .
Project Manager: What do you reckon , five , six ?
Marketing: Yeah , what do you all think ?
User Interface: Six .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Six ?
User Interface: I mean how how far can you go with a remote control , really ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well , that's it , I mean {disfmarker}
User Interface: It still has to do what i what it has to do .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , but I mean everything has been used in space before it gets to anyone else really , hasn't it ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So , I don't think many peop
Project Manager: Space remote .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's it , they can take it with them .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Put fashion in electronics .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Absolutely . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , isn't it fashionable ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The carrot banana remote . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , sure .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's the maximum fashion .
Marketing: So , we give it seven , and we write {disfmarker}
User Interface: Fruit fruit and vegetables are fashionable these days , so .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: There we go .
Industrial Designer: I think that's a {gap} .
User Interface: So I think we've done very well , but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Cool .
Project Manager: Very good .
User Interface: {vocalsound} What's the assessment ?
Marketing: So , we need the average here , so we got {disfmarker}
User Interface: The average is about six and something .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , one .
User Interface: A little bit over six .
Marketing: Seven {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} There are how many sixes ?
Project Manager: Or a seven {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: One , two , three .
Marketing: So we've got four sevens ,
User Interface: No , wait , a little bit under six .
Marketing: so that's twenty eight ,
Industrial Designer: Three .
User Interface: No , wait .
Marketing: three sixes ,
Industrial Designer: And one five .
Marketing: eighteen .
User Interface: Oh , three sixes , okay , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fifty one , one , two , three , four , five , six , seven , eight .
Industrial Designer: Okay , twenty eight , thirty eight , fo forty six . Forty six and five , fifty one .
Project Manager: Six point point {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Fifty one divided by {disfmarker}
User Interface: Six point something , yeah .
Marketing: Two three four {disfmarker} Seven eight .
Project Manager: about six point five .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Six point five , yeah .
Project Manager: Close enough .
Marketing: Okay , that's pretty good , I think . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now wait until we {vocalsound} get to finance and then we'll see if we can afford it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's all you've got at the moment , or did you have anything more ?
Marketing: Um no , that's it ,
Project Manager: That's it ?
Marketing: yeah .
Project Manager: Alright . So , finance . And we'll see if we can unscrew this first .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Cool , there we go .
Project Manager: Sorry , this is {disfmarker} I'm just um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} . There we go and there are the marks .
Project Manager: Beautiful .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Not anymore .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Computer no signal ?
Industrial Designer: Mm I guess it'll have to wait for a bit .
Project Manager: Adjusting . There we go . Okay , so we've looked at the prototype presentation and the evaluation criteria . And now we have to calculate the production costs . So I've got an Excel spreadsheet to help us do that . Can you read that ? Almost .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: More or less . Um I started filling it in , but of course these are provisional , so we have to go down . No hand dynamo , right ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: One simple battery .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: No kinetic energy , no solar . The chip , we're going for an advanced chip on print .
Industrial Designer: Advanced , yeah .
Project Manager: We also said the sample sensor and sample speaker .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Um single-curved surface , so that we can fold it .
User Interface: Yeah , yes .
Project Manager: Case material we said rubber .
User Interface: Rubber .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: I don't know what special colour means .
Industrial Designer: Mm anything uh I think which is not more {gap} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I think something coloured , yeah , probably . So I think this is probably special co no ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: It could be {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , but rubber comes coloured , doesn't it ? You know .
Project Manager: Rub rubber comes coloured ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: it's {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe it's like if you want titanium coloured or wood coloured , it's different .
User Interface: Or maybe maybe if you want some kind of pattern thing on it ,
Project Manager: Yeah , let's leave it as zero , 'cause it's easy . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {gap} yeah yeah , okay .
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: you might end up having to take off the sample sensor .
Project Manager: We we're definitely going to have to {disfmarker}
User Interface: We have pushbuttons ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: so we've got pushbutton , and then we've
User Interface: scro we have scroll wheel as well .
Project Manager: Scroll wheel with pushbutton we had , no ?
Industrial Designer: No uh we we have uh yeah .
User Interface: S yeah , yeah , we had , for muting , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: And we have L_C_ display
Project Manager: And button supplements .
User Interface: and {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm no .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap} . No .
Industrial Designer: We don't have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No . No ?
Industrial Designer: we're not using any of that .
User Interface: Yeah , but what do we ha we have L_C_ display , but but the wh but the s spinning wheel {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But the the spinning wheel's not there . I have {disfmarker} think {disfmarker} maybe it's integrated with the L_C_ display ?
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: We've got more than one pushbutton though ,
User Interface: Okay , let's {gap} yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: haven't we ?
Project Manager: I think the pushbutton {disfmarker} oh .
Marketing: 'Cause then you have {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I don't know if that's one {disfmarker}
Marketing: That means you can only have twenty five push buttons in total doesn't it ? Not counting anything , we'd still be in budget .
Project Manager: Yeah . That seems unlikely .
Industrial Designer: Huh ?
Project Manager: Push what uh
Industrial Designer: Wh wh what is the limit ? Uh .
Marketing: Twelve point five .
Project Manager: whether whether pushbutton means that p count by button or do we {disfmarker}
User Interface: We have to count all of them , or {disfmarker} yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm I don't think so , no .
Project Manager: I don't think that makes sense .
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: No it says what what is the kind of interface ,
Marketing: Well it doesn't , but it uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: No .
Industrial Designer: if it is pushbutton then you got a zero point five , it's a scroll wheel {disfmarker} so we we've put it's pushbutton and scroll wheel and L_C_D_ display ,
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: And L_C_ display .
Industrial Designer: so that's that's the three kind of interfaces that we have .
Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah . So , as we can see , that's way too expensive down here .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wh wh what's our criteria ?
Marketing: This sample sensor {gap} .
Project Manager: Our budget's twelve point five .
Industrial Designer: Uh okay .
Marketing: Yeah , the sample sensor will have to go , 'cause that's the most expensive thing on there .
Project Manager: Yeah , so that has implications though for the {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Uh it does not have for voice recognition , but it does have for the feedback speaker . {gap} when you say {disfmarker} when you press one it says one or it says hello .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: For the locator .
Marketing: But that's a bit of a gimmick anyway really , isn't it ?
Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound} and the locator also goes away .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: We can afford to get rid of it .
User Interface: But it was very no innovative
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: So that means no locator , does it ?
User Interface: {gap} innovativeness {gap} . Well um {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: I mean does {disfmarker}
Project Manager: What else does it need ?
User Interface: Well the speaker uh the sample speaker is is expensive , but we could just have some some very very easy device that just beeps .
Project Manager: Yeah , 'cause the sample speaker was , I think , more complicated then just a beeping thing .
User Interface: This would be {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah yeah {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: there you record your samples your speech samples and {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah , okay , so we {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: A also i in the case I'm not sure that you will evaluate this as a curved surface , because it's just rubber , so it's probably a flat surface rubber . Uh I mean uh um {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: Okay , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Right , so we need one fifty off .
Marketing: See , I was gonna say the scroll wheel pushbutton thing , 'cause {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Take it down to just a scroll wheel . {vocalsound} We could do {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: So tha that {vocalsound} mean that we cannot press {disfmarker} how do we how do we make a selection in uh in the L_C_D_ ?
User Interface: Yeah , then then we would be in the b budget .
Industrial Designer: If {vocalsound} in the L_C_D_ we can scroll , right ? But how do we make a selection if we d cannot push the button .
User Interface: Yeah b no no , you can push this one , but we don't have a pushbutton uh we ca we don't have this muting mechanism for this scrolling thing .
Marketing: But that's {disfmarker} well you would just have to to spin it down {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah . You can have to scroll it straight r roll it straight down for for mute .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: No w w w but ha
Marketing: So that's point three .
Industrial Designer: it's it's the scroll wheel and I thought we were referring to this as a scroll spinning wheel and pushbutton thing .
User Interface: But I mean {vocalsound} we can put an additional mute button on the top as well .
Marketing: Yeah ,
User Interface: If you {disfmarker}
Marketing: I mean that wouldn't actually cost any more . That's the spin wheel though , isn't it ? Didn't that come with the L_C_ {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's with the L_C_
Industrial Designer: That comes with the L_C_D_ ?
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: We decided , 'cause it's not on our list .
Industrial Designer: Oh so so the the this is {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: The scroll wheel is on the side .
Industrial Designer: {gap} . So {vocalsound} we're adding costs for {gap} right , okay uh I mean I think this is good .
Marketing: S so we're point three over .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: We're point three over at the moment .
Marketing: Unless we just take off the scroll wheel altogether
Project Manager: It's nothing n
Marketing: and just have pushbuttons for the volume . Could b still put them on the side . But yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah ,
Marketing: I mean the scroll wheel's pretty cool , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I have {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Instead of scrolling here we have two buttons here , up {disfmarker} for up and down .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: On the side .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm uh it sounds good actually , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay , yeah .
Project Manager: Rather than having three different things that people have to do .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: There we go . Oh look , we're way under budget and we'll make huge profits and we'll all get bonuses .
Marketing: Yeah , well we could admit to the single curve {gap} , couldn't we ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Or or that we have to have some sort of special colour .
Marketing: Yeah , but {gap} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So that's alright . We we'll leave it at that {gap}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: and then I'll take {disfmarker} I can send it back to management and say we weren't quite sure about the colour , if that costs extra then we've still got some space for it ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Excellent . Alright . So did we lose um on our evaluation criteria , as a result of doing that ?
Marketing: No .
Industrial Designer: Not really , no .
Marketing: No , I don't think so .
Industrial Designer: Because we keep all the features , we keep voice recognition , we keep L_C_D_ display .
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: We {disfmarker} instead of having scrolling we we just push the buttons .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: We just got rid of a gimmick that was never {gap} anyway ,
Industrial Designer: Um yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and the scroll wheel is I mean essentially the two buttons that was {disfmarker} it's not a great difference I don't think .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But we lose the locator .
Project Manager: Alright then .
Marketing: Really ?
Project Manager: We're gonna have a beep .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Well {gap} we're going to have a beeping thing .
Industrial Designer: So instead of speaker , {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: But yeah , it's it's not like sample speaker , but it will just beep , so we still have the locate .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Cool . That's not a very exciting colour . I think you should make it more vegetable-like . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Tha
User Interface: Which colour , the the colour of the phone or the colour of the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Oh the the beeper thing .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: It {disfmarker}
User Interface: But it can be yellow as well . It can come in the same colour as the the case .
Project Manager: 'Cause we we won't have run out of our pot of Play-Doh {gap} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , I think Jen wants it to vibrate .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , I know I know , my pen vibrates .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: You know , your pen vibrates ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But only for a very short time . Um okay . So looks like we've designed a banana .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well done , team . {vocalsound} Um we need {disfmarker} we've just got about ten minutes or so left of the meeting , so it would be good if we could just have a little talk about the project itself and how it went , um so that we can feed back to the management for next time they're designing a product .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think it mm {disfmarker}
Marketing: Cool .
Project Manager: Feedback ? Ideas ?
User Interface: Yeah mm , as far as creativity is concerned , yeah I think there was there was room for creativity . The only the only problem being that at the end we had to cut some things down because of the the budget we had .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think uh n one thing that was lacking uh was that we did not know what the various things cost to begin with .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Um we kap kept a adding things randomly .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: So , had we known {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: If we'd had that sheet at the beginning {gap} should've been like , okay , so we can have that lot , let's just throw it together and do what we can .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , that or not , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So {vocalsound} d all the random decisions at the end could have been prevented .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: But in terms of the process of um going and working individually and then coming back to a meeting , that that worked in terms of .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , mm .
Marketing: I think 'cause the meetings were so regular , you know . It wasn't like we were alone for very long ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: so you didn't {vocalsound} st go off and think , wouldn't it be great to have a vibrating {vocalsound} remote control {vocalsound} shaped like a banana ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Banana . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and then , you know , come back three days later and Jen's going look , look , it vibrates and it looks like a banana .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Um yeah , so yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , the m the means were very very good , the means we used .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm , the whiteboard digital pens .
User Interface: And the pens . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh I like the pens .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} We like the pens . {vocalsound}
Marketing: I want one . That would just be so cool , to d do all your notes and s
Project Manager: Yeah , you could take it to lectures and just write stuff down
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah ,
Project Manager: and have it printed out when you got back to the office .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: that's it's it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: They great ?
Industrial Designer: I wonder what one of these costs . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do you think they'd notice if one went ?
Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't think you should say that was the recording .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh okay .
Marketing: Okay , cover up the microphone . Alright , let's take it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yep . Shh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yep .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: But that worked well having having a whiteboard that we could draw on as well as having the PowerPoint , 'cause the {disfmarker} I find that the problem with PowerPoint often is that it's so static and you can't change it once you're in there ,
Marketing: It is a bit limiting , isn't it ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: yep .
User Interface: Yeah , and and and this time also the time limits but actually preparing the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah . The thing flew in ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: you didn't have the whole whooshing thing , 'cause there wasn't time for that , so yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah . That's alright , that always irritates me anyway , yeah .
Marketing: Not that you can do that on the board , either . We could make some little {disfmarker}
User Interface: But yeah , but I mean already just just preparing the slides before before the meeting , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , totally , I mean that was fairly tight anyway , I mean especially with that last-minute alteration .
Project Manager: Mm . Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} back it , {vocalsound} this is {disfmarker} just had to be changed
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: . And {disfmarker} yeah , so {disfmarker} cool .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Are we supposed to say nice things about Jen now ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And presumably you don't {disfmarker} you can say nasty things as well .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I have no stake in it .
User Interface: I was I was satisfied with with the leadership , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , definitely .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: You weren't like a a dictating leader , so that was always good .
Project Manager: You have to say that , 'cause I'm taking the notes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I'll leave the room and you can have another go .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: I know you've got the pen , you might attack me with it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Better than that than the banana .
User Interface: And then the teamwork I think I think it worked quite quite nicely , yeah .
Project Manager: I think it worked quite well .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Did anyone feel that they were getting sort of covered up and not being able to say their bit ?
User Interface: To express them mm mm
Industrial Designer: Mm . I guess it was a fairly small group ,
User Interface: no .
Industrial Designer: so all of us got to express our opinions , yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {gap} . New ideas found . Not quite sure what about .
User Interface: Well it's it's it's pretty new ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: pretty novel solution for a for a remote control really , all this flipping open thing and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: I don't know , I don't go shopping for remote controls that often , maybe somebody's already though of it .
User Interface: Yeah , neither neither do I ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: but I've never seen anything and and none of my examples were was was like this , actually , so .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah . I'll be looking out next time I need to write an essay .
Project Manager: Yeah , that's right . {vocalsound}
Marketing: That looks boring , I'll see if anyone's made a {gap} remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah maybe w maybe we could have a patent on this one .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Patent patent patent . Mm .
Marketing: I think we'd like to think the ideas were new ,
Project Manager: Banana remote .
Marketing: but we've got no way of finding out . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Or you can always go to Google and type in banana remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: That vibrates {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Flip . Vibrate
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , but that would just come up with like other things really wouldn't it .
Project Manager: . And uh {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound} Nothing that you really want . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: True . Yeah . {vocalsound} Okay . So , costs are within budget ,
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: Yes . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: well within budget , including a little {disfmarker} what have we got ? One Euro left over for bits that we didn't foresee . Um we've evaluated the project .
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: And it's fabulous .
Project Manager: You've got the scores . Can you put that in the project documents file ?
Marketing: It's in the project documents {gap} .
Project Manager: It's in there already . And the process wheel didn't really have any major problems with . Were there any {disfmarker} was there anything that you found difficult , or anything that didn't go as smoothly as you'd hope ?
User Interface: And my main difficulty was the the time pressure .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Otherwise it's it's all fine .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah , sometimes it's like a little bit rushed .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I thought that was good though , because if you're given too much time then you got nothing to do with your time and um {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Although we could have made the R_s better had we had five more minute . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay then . Um I think we're still well within our time .
Marketing: Yeah , we've got like five minutes left .
Project Manager: We've got about five minutes left , but if we've finished , then we've finished . We're just too too efficient
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We certainly are ,
Project Manager: and you should never drag a meeting on just because you have extra time .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: mm . Yeah .
User Interface: Yes .
Project Manager: So I would say that's the end of that meeting .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Thank you , team .
User Interface: Yeah , it was a pleasure working with you .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , same here . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It was very productive day and {disfmarker}
Marketing: We could draw animals on the board again .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm uh no . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm uh no . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't think so . {vocalsound}
User Interface: You can make some animals .
Marketing: I don't like Play-Doh , no .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh , you don't like anim
Marketing: It's just minging . It smells so bad .
User Interface: {vocalsound} It doesn't ?
Marketing: It does .
User Interface: Smells quite nice . Smells very sweet .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Right , so we have to complete the final questionnaire and meeting summary when they send it .
Industrial Designer: Was there a questionnaire already sent ?
Project Manager: I don't know if it's already sent or not .
Marketing: No , it hasn't been .
Project Manager: Um presumably I have to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Do we have to go back into the other room or can we stay in here now ?
Project Manager: I don't see why you can't stay here , really .
Marketing: Okay , so the other way . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Did I save this one ? Production costs .
User Interface: {vocalsound} I made your animal for you .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It was supposed to be pink . {vocalsound} But it was blue on the board .
User Interface: Yeah , that's the one {disfmarker}
Query:
Summarize the whole meeting.
Answer:
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This meeting was about the detailed design. Firstly, User Interface presented on the prototype, including the shape, the size of the remote and the user interface including the buttons and the scrolling wheel. Next, the group had an evaluation criterion on the prototype. They scored an overall six point five average on the prototype and thought they had done well on it. Then, the group had a discussion about project finance. The group decided not to have a sample sensor and the locator because they had a production cost of 12.5 Euros. Lastly, the group had a discussion about the project process, including the use of a pen, the whiteboard and the PowerPoint. Also, the group was satisfied with Project Manager's leadership and Project Manager also mentioned that their costs were within the budget as well as some admin work.
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... [The rest of the transcript is omitted]
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va-gq-93
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va-gq-93_0
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Julie Morgan, and I'm very pleased to welcome David Rees, who is substituting for her today. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you very much. Item 2 this morning, then, is a session with the Minister for Children and Social Care on the Welsh Government's childcare offer. So, I'm very pleased to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, Minister for Children and Social Care, also Jo-Anne Daniels, director for communities and tackling poverty, and Owain Lloyd, deputy director for childcare, play and early years. So, thank you, all, for your attendance. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first questions come from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Good morning, Minister. How has it gone in the early implementer local authority areas, and is it something of a mixed bag?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It's gone well, but I'm glad we've done it through this process of early implementer, actually piloting it, because we're learning lessons as we go along. It has gone well. It's been encouraging, to the extent that we're at the point where we're expanding—we've made announcements on expanding some of the early implementer areas so we can learn more lessons. But, in terms of what we're learning, one is the bureaucracy around the current approach that we're taking, because it's being done on the seven early implementers. So, we're asking parents to come in, provide their wage slips, provide the birth certificates, and so on. You're dealing sometimes with parents and families with complex issues and complex backgrounds, so it's difficult. And the burden of administration on that is falling to each pilot area. In one case, it's a whole authority, but it's only one—that's in Blaenau Gwent. In others, it's smaller areas. So, we're also hitting those—. The other big challenge we're hitting is communication. So, we're having parents, generally, who are outside the areas entirely saying, 'Why haven't we got this yet? Can we please get into it?', which is encouraging. But the other thing we're having is people who are within pilot authorities, where it doesn't extend to the whole authority, saying, 'Well, hold on now, we think we qualify for something under universal care, we think we qualify for something on tax credits. Why don't we qualify for this?' 'Well, you're not in the pilot area.' So, we're learning about these things, but the biggest one, I have to say, is the administrative burden, and I think that's interesting in how we take this forward for a wider roll-out.
Hefin David AM: What is the administrative burden? What specifically is that?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It is that sheer burden on each local authority, and each pilot area, to administer a scheme where we are asking parents to prove eligibility, to bring in documents to prove their eligibility, to make adjustments as it goes forward based on what their changing work patterns are, what their salary slips say. It's incredibly bureaucratic. So, yesterday, when we made the statement following the announcement of the introduction of the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, we made clear that our preferred option, as put within that framework Bill, is actually to build on, and to learn from the lessons as well, the model of the HM Revenue and Customs type of model, where you actually have—and this, by the way, is supported by local authority providers out there—one system that is a centralised system, where there is clarity, that is handled, that has elements of information sharing between Government departments, such as the Department for Work and Pensions, and so on, so that the work is done for the parents, and the work is done for the local authorities; much cleaner, much simpler.
Hefin David AM: How confident are you that you can achieve that by 2020?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We are very confident. But, as I say, I'm more confident in the fact that we're actually piloting it, and phasing this in, because I think we've learned from some of the experiences elsewhere, including just over the border in England, where they have a different version of a childcare offer, but they've gone for it in a big-bang approach. And it has led to technical issues, it's led to volume issues, where their anticipation of how many people would buy into it was overwhelmed by the numbers who actually then came forward for it, and the complexity, I have to say, of individual family situations, whereas what we are doing, Hefin, is taking this forward very, very carefully. Each roll-out, each expansion that we're doing of the pilot is not—and I know this has caused some people to come back and say, 'Why can't we all have it now?' It's because we're only rolling out to areas where we now need to learn a lesson about whether it's rurality or, as it will be within densely urban areas, where the cost might be slightly higher, and that's allowing us to have the confidence that we'll have it. We've expanded the whole offer across Gwynedd—the whole of Gwynedd, Anglesey and Caerphilly. Flintshire now have a cross-authority offer. Rhondda Cynon Taf is anticipating doing this by September. Swansea is planning to do it, they tell us, in due course—in short order—as well. So, we have the confidence now that, with that learning going on from different pilot areas, we'll have the full roll-out by 2020.
Hefin David AM: Is it true to say that, in the early adopter areas, the intensity of demand for the services is not spread evenly across?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Absolutely.
Hefin David AM: And why is that? Is that going to cause a problem across Wales?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, it won't cause a problem. If we were doing this tomorrow, it would cause a problem, but what we're learning is that there are some economic issues and then there are some cultural issues. So ,there are issues to do with—. It's not capacity, by the way. We're not finding a problem here with capacity, whether it's in English language provision or whether it's in Welsh language provision, whether it's in children with complex needs, we're not finding that as an issue. But what we are finding is, for example, one of the well-known ones—and I've spoken about this before—is that, in some of the south Wales Valleys constituencies, there is a family tradition of doing childcare within the families. I've done it myself. Grandparents, aunts, uncles and so on provide free, unregistered, unlicensed childcare of a sort. Now that isn't what the scheme is about, by the way, I have to say. So, some of the aspects are cultural, but what we're also doing alongside this, whilst looking at the capacity and looking at how we learnt from the pilot roll-out, is that communication with parents and providers and local authorities as well. So, we have a whole programme running alongside it. It's about communicating what the offer is, how simple it is to get invovled in this and where they go to, and, critically, I think, how we do that national roll-out would be important as well.
Hefin David AM: So, given the point you've made about grandparents and family, wouldn't it be sensible, then, to offer a subsidy to grandparents to provide this kind of care?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Unregistered grandparents?
Hefin David AM: Well, through some kind of analysis of that.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, we don't think so and there are good reasons behind this.
Hefin David AM: Is it because you say that they wouldn't be registered as carers for their own family member?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, but there's a deeper reason behind that registration as well. The childcare offer isn't only to just provide childcare; it's the wider aspects that come with this. This childcare offer ties into the foundation years offer. There's an element of education linked to the childcare offer—there's that 10 hours of the early education foundation years as well. The two tie together. So, there's an issue here with quality, about socialisation and how children learn in an environment, as opposed to purely—as great as all our grandparents and aunts and uncles are—simply child-minding. That's one important distinction. So, the focus of this scheme is very much on registered licensed providers, which could be, by the way—because we do have them, and we're discussing this at the moment internally and with the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and others—grandparents who are actually registered and inspected by the care inspectorate? We're having those discussions.
Hefin David AM: How many of them are there?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We don't think there is a huge number, but we're trying to bottom this out at the moment. We haven't got the exact number, but we don't think they are huge numbers, but there are, in our constituencies, registered, licensed, inspected grandparents who look after other people's children in a little group of four or five or six or seven, but also their own grandchildren.
Hefin David AM: So, they're a kind of grandparents club.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes. Now that, I would say to you—and I know that Darren raised this on the floor yesterday as well—is markedly different in the nature of it, because it's registered and licensed, than simply informal grandparents or aunts or uncles. I say that as well because we also get people who will say to us, 'I don't want to be paid for looking after my grandchildren; I look after my grandchildren because I look after them'.
Hefin David AM: And what about the view, given that you said that capacity wasn't an issue, of the National Day Nurseries Association, which says that Wales has the most fragile childcare sector in Great Britain?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I don't agree we have the most fragile, but the childcare offer gives us an opportunity to make it more resilient and more robust. We know from the early piloting, and as we roll it out, that there is the immense diversity within the childcare sector, and we're talking about everything from those very small terraced homes that have been licensed and registered to take six or seven children, to large, complex environments that perhaps are on maintained premises within school premises, provided by a voluntary or third sector organisation. So, there's immense complexity and we know that that differs across Wales, and we also know there's immense regional variation in the scale and the type of childcare offer. What the roll-out allows us to do, backed by £60 million of capital money behind it, in terms of capital development of childcare facilities, backed by a 10-year workforce development plan for childcare—and bear in mind this is bolted in as part of our foundational economy approach as well—that means, by 2020, we get to the point where we're putting the money into the capital development but also to the workforce development, because in some areas we're finding it's not to do with lack of provision and facilities, it's to do with lack of staff. In other areas, we're finding there are plenty of staff but not the adequate facilities. We've got to get it right.
Hefin David AM: That's fair enough, but is it realistic to think that there's going to be capacity growth in the next two to three years to deliver the product? Is that realistic to think that that foundational sector can provide that level of staffing?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, I think it is, absolutely, because, again, what we're finding is we've got several things going on at once in terms of how we monitor and assess the development of this roll-out. One is the work that we're doing on the ground with the phased roll-out, so we're literally learning live time, and I have pretty much weekly or fortnightly updates on how things are going, but also there is a termly update as well. We've also commissioned additional work from Arad to look at this first phase of the roll-out that we've done to see what that tells us as well. But the feedback that we're getting from the childcare providers themselves, on the basis that we're now identifying where either the gaps in the workforce or the physical facilities are, is that, 'Yes, we can do this', because we're putting the money in, we have the strategy for the workforce development, and it's not going to be the same in all parts of Wales. It's not as if what we're saying is, 'Here's what we're going to do all of a sudden—flick a switch and we have a universality of the same type of provision everywhere.' So, let me give you one key example. Alongside this, alongside the £60 million capital fund, alongside the workforce development, we've also identified a separate strain of money into cylch meithrin. We know that there is a shortage in parts of Wales for Welsh language childcare development. We're specifically putting money into developing that, and, in fact, the first one of those will be, from that new tranche of money, opening up, I think, in September. They anticipate, as part of our big strategy with Welsh language development, we'll have an additional 40 of those by—
Jo-Anne Daniels: Thirty.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It's an additional 30 by 2020, and an additional doubling of that in the 10 years after that. We can't take this for granted, Hefin. This is difficult. This is hard work, but we have everything in place to make it happen.
Hefin David AM: The last thing from me: the £4.50 single national rate—is there a danger that we might be creating a kind of EasyJet-style nursery provision where you get the basics but the wealthier parents are going to be able to pay for better care within those settings because of the add-ons?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We really mulled over this a lot and discussed it, I have to say, not only internally but with childcare providers out there and with parents as well and with local authorities. The first thing to say is the £4.50 rate that we've set has been welcomed, and it's been welcomed because it's unlike the much more complex offer that's in England, where there's a variable rate and there are lots of determining factors on it and it's added complexity and confusion.
Hefin David AM: Can I just ask there, it's been welcomed perhaps in Blaenau Gwent, but has it been equally welcomed in Cardiff?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, because we haven't rolled it out in Cardiff yet, and that is a salient point.
Hefin David AM: Okay, fair enough. But will it be, then?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, it will be. Some of the more expensive areas like Cardiff and Newport are knocking on our door saying, 'Please can we have this offer?', and we are keen to give it to them. But, as I say—
Hefin David AM: But do you anticipate a capacity problem with the £4.50 in those areas, compared to, say, the Cynon valley?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We can't anticipate it yet, Hefin, but that's exactly the reason for going into that area and then assessing how it works. We're reasonably confident that the £4.50—. We're reasonably assured by the feedback that we're having that the £4.50 might work as a universal amount. But if we learn, when we roll it out in Cardiff and Newport, that there needs to be some variation, we can look at that, because we're not doing a big-bang approach. So, that is part of why we will move to roll it out within Cardiff and Newport and other more expensive areas and learn from it, but at the moment, I have to say, the £4.50 amount has been welcomed—it's appropriate. You touched on the other aspect, though, of the wider aspects of beyond the £4.50, because the £4.50 doesn't cover everything. The £4.50 is a contribution towards the wraparound childcare element but it doesn't cover—and we agonised over this—the issues of things like transport out on trips or food or snacks and things like this. Now, we did agonise a number of things that brought us to the conclusion where we are. I have to say, this hasn't been ivory-tower stuff; it's been in discussion with the providers but also parents. One: parents are quite used to—with childcare settings and play care settings and so on—the idea that providers are quite different. Some providers charge a fee that does everything in one; others provide simply the childcare element but they tell the parents—and I'm used to this as a parent myself, although mine are older now—'Mr Irranca-Davies, when you sign on, just to be aware, if we do take your kids down to St Fagans, there's going to be a little bit of a charge for that' and so on.
Hefin David AM: That's fair enough, but it would be the lowest-income working families who would be most unduly affected by that, because the higher income families would be able to afford those add-ons, the lower income ones won't. Isn't that a concern?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: If money was absolutely no object, then I think you'd be looking at quite a different offer, but it has to be affordable within what we've got as well. The fact that parents, including those who are on lower incomes, are used to currently discriminating between providers, not only with childcare settings but also within school settings as well, where very often schools now will say, 'We're doing something extra'—
Hefin David AM: That may be the case, but it's not fair, is it?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: In a pure argument about equity, and if funding was no object and if the burdens of austerity were released and we were told we had money—'You can do what you want'—I think you'd be looking at a very different approach. But within what we have, I think this works very, very well indeed, because it's very transparent for parents who are used to making these decisions. It says, 'Here you have 10 hours of the foundation education offer. You have the additional hours here provided with the childcare offer. But within those additional hours, you may be with a local provider in the middle of Powys that actually says, "Within that we provide everything"; you may be with a provider that says, "Well, actually, we do a whistles and bells thing and we take them out on trips, but it's up to you if you want to come, and here's the additional cost—".' Parents are used to making that decision and realistically, in terms of what we can do with this offer, this is actually—the arguments around this have been well rehearsed both with providers and with parents and we're not getting any concerns that this is going to unnecessarily disadvantage. In a total fairness argument, would you make it universal and with no additional charges? Well, possibly you would. But we work within the realistic—
Hefin David AM: Or have a lower top-end income limit.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Depending on how the Bill progresses in the main Chamber and when it goes through committee, there's that flexibility built into the Bill that those things can be looked at over time and adjusted. For the moment, I think there is an attraction, in terms of the upper limit, of saying: one—'Let's try not to add additional complexity, let's go with a scheme that's already working its way through the system, which is, if you like, what they're doing in England, and not add additional complexity. But, secondly, there is an appeal to universality, curiously, in saying to all parents—and I say this regardless of political hues across the committee here—there's an attraction when you say, 'Let's make an offer focused on working parents as it is', as universal to those working parents as possible, and avoid the administrative costs of saying, 'Well, let's take the upper limit down to £80 or £60 or £55.' There's always the question of how much additional cost is incurred in actually doing that tweak of complexity. We have looked at it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Darren on this.
Darren Millar AM: Just to ask, I mean, the labour market costs are changing, aren't they? You've got the national living wage increasing—[Inaudible.]—that's going to have a bearing, isn't it, on the affordability of this project in terms of the childcare offer and the suitability of the £4.50 per hour regime? By the time it's fully rolled out, of course, that £4.50 rate is going to be a number of years old, for example. Do you have plans to review that? Where is it headed? Because it's certainly not going to be enough in the future.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It depends how far in the future you're looking. I have to say, the feedback that we're having at the moment from organisations like the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and from the National Day Nurseries Association Wales and others is that this is the right rate and it's suitable not only today but for the foreseeable future of rolling this out.
Darren Millar AM: But they've raised concerns about the national living wage implications, haven't they, as well?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Of course, and I think it's incumbent on us as well to not—
Darren Millar AM: So, it's not fair to say that they haven't raised concerns about the rate.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, but what they're not arguing for at the moment is for this rate to be raised.
Darren Millar AM: But they have suggested that in meetings—
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: That in future—
Darren Millar AM: Absolutely.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, of course, in future, any Minister, any committee, will want to come back and look at—is the hourly rate, as one element of the scheme, appropriate to the current financial challenges for the sector, and not least, by the way, as we try not only to develop the workforce, but to develop the career pathways through this as well? And I think that's the right discussion to be had, live time, as this is taken forward. But at this moment in time, we're not getting people saying within this part of the roll-out that we need to adjust this amount.
Darren Millar AM: So, have you forecasted for any adjustment in the rate going forward in terms of affordability of the project? Because you've still got this £100 million price tag on it, haven't you?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Similar to the point that was raised with Hefin about Cardiff and Newport, if we identify that the rate is not appropriate, if it's—. I don't think anybody's going to come back to us and say that it's too little. But do bear in mind that it's above where the average England rate is, even though there's this complex variability within the English rate that has caused some confusion there, which is why the universal rate with us has been welcomed. If we find, as we pilot it, or if we find because there are more expensive areas for it to be delivered in, there needs to be adjustment, then we'll be back in front of the committee arguing why that needs to be the case.
Darren Millar AM: But that won't put the project at risk in terms of its finances?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, no. We are still very confident, looking forward, on the best projections we have, fed by the live input that's coming in from the pilot, which will be fed again in the autumn—the Arad report coming forward—that we have not only the capacity to actually deliver this—challenging as this is, we have the capacity to deliver it—but also that the funding that's available, on our best estimate—the estimate we've stood by, that broad ball park of that £100 million figure—it's deliverable within that. But if it changes, we will come back. And if it changes, I'll have to be sitting down with my boss, Vaughan Gething, and with Mark Drakeford, to argue the case on it. But at this moment, we have confidence and we've run the rule across this repeatedly. But that rate, combined with the other elements of this childcare offer—there is sufficient there allocated to actually deliver the whole roll-out.
Lynne Neagle AM: Mark on this.
Mark Reckless AM: Minister, as a parent who's been researching childcare options, it's obvious to me that in Cardiff, and to a degree in Newport and Monmouthshire, costs are substantially higher than this, and I haven't been able to find anywhere that has a six-hour day for £27, which is implied by your rate. Isn't it the case that rents and wages are higher and therefore you're going to need a higher rate to make it work? Isn't that already obvious? Why are you postponing coming back and looking at this until some point in the future?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Chair, my biggest fear is a parent who's actually involved in this area already, but, having been one myself—. Mark, you may be right, that's exactly why we're piloting it and that's why when we pilot in Cardiff and Newport, we know we have lessons to learn over the affordability and the £4.50 per hour rate.
Mark Reckless AM: But you're not piloting it in any of the high-cost areas that I've referred to.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No. We will be. We are going to be.
Mark Reckless AM: When are you starting?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Cardiff and Newport—September.
Owain Lloyd: This September.
Mark Reckless AM: This September?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes. So, we're not missing any of these learning experiences and we know that—. The reason we've gone for the other areas first, by the way—please take this back to any authorities affected—is simply because we've done deep dives into areas that vary from very rural areas in mid Wales, areas in north Wales, areas around Welsh language provision, areas in deep valleys, understanding the cultural and the economic impacts. So, we've held back a little bit from going into what we know is an obvious challenge within the more expensive areas of provision. But it's coming, it's imminent, and we'll learn the lessons from it. And do you know, you may be right? And if you are right, that it's more expensive, and we need a higher rate within those areas, then we're going to have to come back and discuss it with the committee. But let's go in and learn it first of all, rather than assume it necessarily.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before I bring David in on the issue that Hefin raised about the chargeable items, your paper says that providers can charge up to £7.50 a day for food, snacks, transport and consumables such as nappies. Now, that's £37.50 a week, which is a lot of money for parents, and I just wondered if you wanted to comment on that figure? But also, do you think there's a risk that providers who maybe aren't charging at the moment may start charging because of any new pressures that arise because of this scheme?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I think they're the right areas to flag up, and if I thought that was going to happen I'd be concerned as we take this forward and design this scheme. I think part of the evaluation from Arad will also show us that—whether or not, within the pilot areas that we are already in, which are quite diverse, that is happening. We're only one term into learning the lessons, by the way, but I would want to make sure that we design a scheme where we are not heaping on disadvantage or where there was exploitation of disadvantaged families. So, the early evaluation, I think, will give us good feedback on that. I think also, by the way, that providers know that this is a collaborative effort to do this here. It's not in their interests, I have to say, as the umbrella bodies or individual providers, to see this as some way that they can unduly rake in additional income from this on the backs of poorer families. This is about providing opportunities for all working families. But especially, I have to say, the early evaluation that we've seen already suggests that the greatest proportion of those who are taking advantage of this scheme in the early parts—in the early evaluation—are those who are below the average working wage within in Wales. That's by far the greatest number of people who are doing it, and we don't want them then being priced out because of add-ons. So, there has to be some pragmatism, I have to say, and some open partnership working here with the sector, and we do have that.
Lynne Neagle AM: John on this.
John Griffiths AM: I want to come back to the £4.50 rate, but in terms of working with the sector, briefly, if I might, Chair, I just wonder, Huw, in terms of that £4.50 figure and understanding the sector in Wales, to what extent are we talking about a market rate and to what extent are we talking about the increase in demand that will come from the scheme and how that relates to economies of scale and capacity? Is it purely a market rate or is there a conversation with the sector in terms of the benefits that will come from this scheme and how they should be recognised in terms of setting the rate?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: This has been a very open dialogue with the sector around affordability, around the hourly rate and around what might happen in future as well. This is not a pure hard data-driven analysis that says, 'Here we've calculated everything and this is the rate that will satisfy it', because we recognise that there's great diversity in provision out there, and we also recognise that things will change over time. It's not only the geographical diversity—it's the diversity of the sector itself. I think we need to, as we take this scheme forward and look at the full roll-out, continue in that very open dialogue with the sector not about what is purely a market-driven amount but actually what is also affordable for the Welsh Government within the constraints that we have. Just to flag up one issue, it's right that we're focusing on those elements that aren't included within it, to some extent as well, and the effect of that on more disadvantaged families, but that has to be balanced with the pocket of affordability for this scheme as well. Let me give you a clear illustration: some of our calculations have suggested that if we included free food within this offer as well, it would add something like in the region of 50p to that £4.50 rate. That would have, at this moment, impacts on the affordability of this and the roll-out of it. I would need to be going back to my seniors and arguing the case now, okay? But, it's that open dialogue with the sector that says, 'There's one thing about what you're saying you demand as a market; there's another thing about what we're saying that we have affordability from taxpayers' money to actually put into this'. They also understand, John, that as well as an enabling policy—and we're seeing the evidence, by the way; I can cite it—of individuals who are being helped into more flexible options to get back into work, increase their hours and so on, this is also about building capacity in a fundamental foundation sector that is in every single part of Wales. The stuff that's being debated ad nauseam here within the Assembly about foundational sectors—. The sector itself understands that if we boost the childcare offer in all its diversity, including, by the way, not just the independent sector but social enterprises and third-sector organisations, such as exist in Neath and elsewhere that I was involved in 20 or 30-odd years ago setting up—that has an economic impact that goes beyond that immediate family who are receiving the provision to the wider communities as well. They know that. They know there is job creation within this and there's economic impact for that. So, it's an open dialogue on what the rate should be rather than purely, 'Our wonks have crunched the numbers and we've come up with £4.50.'
Lynne Neagle AM: David, you had a question on the pilots.
David Rees AM: Yes, just to finish that section off, if I may, Chair. Before I go to my question, I want to come back to Mark Reckless's question and the answer you gave. I got the impression that if there is a need to look at different rates because of the higher-end areas, you may therefore have different sets of rates and not a universal rate. Is that also on the cards?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: David, it's possible. I think our preference would be, I have to say, to stick with the universal rate, because we know it's—. There's real simplicity and it's been welcomed in the sector. But the sector, also, are quite pragmatic about this. One of the defining hallmarks of the way that we've taken this scheme forward is learning in live time as we pilot and expand the pilots into different areas and different types of provision. If we learn lessons from that that suggest we need to come back and look at a differential in more-expensive-to-provide areas, then we'll have to look at that, but there might be other ways of splicing it. But first of all, I think we have to go in and see how does this work. We might find, Mark, we might find, David, that we go in and when everything is tallied up, the £4.50 per hour works in supporting provision there.
David Rees AM: Okay. In your answer to John, you talked about affordability, which I totally understand. If I can now remind you: I don't remember the word 'affordability' coming in the manifesto pledge of the Government. It was 'we will offer childcare facilities'. So, I just want to put a reminder to you there.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Ministers always look at affordability.
David Rees AM: Well, voters don't. In the situation regarding Welsh-medium, you answered that a little bit earlier, but I have concerns about capacity. Workforce capacity you've mentioned. To actually be registered you need staff who are qualified. There's clearly a need to get more staff, because in your own paper you say that the report in 2016 said you do not have the childcare capacity in Wales at the moment. Do you believe that you can actually deliver the workforce to meet that capacity, first of all through the English medium, but secondly through the Welsh medium as well? Because there's a clear need to look at it. You talk about 30 by 2020. By the way, 30 is nothing big when you consider the whole of Wales. Do you actually think you've got that workforce capacity set up before this is fully rolled out?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I hope, Chair, you'll appreciate that in our submission to you we've been very open. This is challenging. This is. To get to where we want to go is a huge challenge. Can we do it? Yes we can. And I don't say that glibly. Let me suggest some of the ways why. We have confidence that we can do this if everybody is working together across the sector, across the local authorities. Let me talk broadly about capacity, first of all, including English and Welsh-medium provision for children with complex needs, provision for children with disabilities—all of this. First of all, this is being—. The work that we're doing to increase both capacity in terms of trained staff and qualified staff: we have the 10-year plan that I mentioned, which has already been announced. We're working through it. We're working through it with the sector. So, we're identifying not only broadly at a national level where we need to develop those qualifications, but also at a regional, geographic level as well, and that's being taken forward. We've engaged with the 22 authorities—not just the pilot areas as well on this. So, beyond the pilot areas, we also have intense engagement. As you can see from what I've said before, it's rolling out progressively, but with all 22 authorities we're working with them on their childcare sufficiency assessments to identify where their shortages are.
David Rees AM: What have the pilot programmes actually shown you about this, and how are you going to move this forward?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, it's precisely that. So, within the pilot areas, we have a greater depth of analysis now of where both the workforce and the physical provisions are. Whether those are maintained or non-maintained or third sector or school facilities or whatever, we've got a much deeper granulation of identifying where that is, and we're working, then, with those authorities, with the capital moneys that we've allocated to this and the workforce development, and with local colleges, to develop the workforce and the physical constraints. But we're also doing that with the other 22, with all the 22 authorities as well, in anticipation of the wider roll-out. They're not being left out of this. And by the way, it's not only the Cardiffs and the Newports; it's all the other ones where there isn't full roll-out. We're engaged with them deeply at the moment with that analysis on their childcare sufficiency assessments, both in terms of workforce, but also physical provision. So, we're doing that already. We are looking as well, as this is rolled out, around the issue of co-location. Now, co-location is a fruitful way to look at future development. It doesn't mean, by the way, that we exclude the third sector or social enterprise approach, or the independent sector, but co-location could be key to the roll-out of this in the right areas where it can be done, because then we avoid any fracture between the education hours and the childcare hours: the physical transportation of children from one location to another. So, we're engaged with the 22 authorities on that: where could that be developed, who would be the providers that would do it and do they have the workforce to scale up to do it? If not, how do they talk to local colleges to do that? So, we're doing that at the moment. I mentioned we've put the £1 million additional funding into the meithrin over the next two years, targeting 40 new Welsh-medium groups by 2021, which pretty much coincides with the full roll-out of this. It's part of the aim of an additional 150 over the next decade of meithrin. So, all of those things, David, give us a confidence that we're going to be in the right place.
David Rees AM: But in particular, take the Welsh language—I understand Gwynedd, and I won't ask another question on that for obvious reasons at this point in time—but in some of the other areas where you've piloted, you've gone partial in some areas. When there's Welsh language education, and the three to five-year-olds go to schools, they go from all areas of the council, basically. They don't actually go necessarily from the local area, and therefore you're getting a different picture. Have you been able to assess the actual impact, properly, upon the Welsh-medium side of things? Because, for example, my grandchildren will go from my area, which may not be in one of the considerations, to a school that may be in that consideration, and that happens regularly.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Absolutely. We know that historically we've got, across the country, a shortage of Welsh-language childcare provision—meithrin and so on—but we have not only a strategy in place, but the fact that we've got local authorities now doing their own assessments within their area, across the piste of childcare, but also in terms of Welsh language, that means then that we can start filling those gaps with the money we've put to it, and that includes in all parts of Wales, including those areas within south Wales and others that are less deep in their tradition of speaking Welsh over recent history, anyway, but where the demand for it is massive. So, local authorities are tasked with doing their own assessments of childcare sufficiency for this childcare offer. They're identifying the gaps, David, and we will work with them and with providers to fill those gaps, and that includes with the umbrella organisations for Welsh language childcare provision.
David Rees AM: And that's the same for those children with physical disabilities or learning disabilities.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Absolutely the same. Absolutely the same. And this does mean, Chair, that it will be different, as it currently is in different areas: the type of provision, where the provision is located. But the provision should be there. This offer won't happen unless the provision is there for those children with complex needs, children with disabilities, Welsh language provision, as well as more generic provision as well, but it will be diverse in its provision around areas.
Lynne Neagle AM: I do want to move on now, John, so if I can come back to your question. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: I would like to pick up on the last point, if I may.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you. The investment in meithrin, of course, is one that we all welcome. A question from me though, the wider question, is: how do we mainstream Welsh medium into childcare? Because, clearly, leaving it to meithrin is one way of doing it, but there's a lot of existing infrastructure out there that we need to upskill in terms of the provision of Welsh medium. So, it's not a question as such, but I'm sure you recognise that—that there is a challenge there. Because if we are to get to where we want to get to, it isn't about growing meithrin, or Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin; it's about mainstreaming Welsh-medium provision within the wider sector. So, it wasn't a question after all. So, looking at the manifesto commitment that was made in 2016, clearly the main or the principal aim of this policy is around removing some of the barriers to secure employment for parents, albeit with very positive outcomes for the children themselves, and we don't ignore or neglect that at any cost. But I'm just wondering: how would you then reconcile that with the findings of the Public Policy Institute for Wales report, which I mentioned to you yesterday, which was commissioned by the Government to look at policy options in this context, which concluded that there will be no 'substantial impacts on net income, poverty or work behaviour for families with children' and that 'the impact on work participation and work hours for mothers in families with a child of target age is extremely small'?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, the first thing I would say is that what we're learning from the pilots is that it is having real-life impacts on parents, including in disadvantaged families, and we're having this fed back from real-life situations on the ground, where parents are making different choices in the areas where it's being piloted. So, the types of different choices they're making could be to expand the number of hours that they're in work, because they now have a choice, they're not constrained to certain hours or whatever, they have a wider choice, with a wider number of providers, and they're making that decision and they're able to expand their hours. Some, by the way, Llyr, I have to say—and, again, these are real-life situations—are saying, 'What we're doing is not expanding our hours, but, because of the increased provision of childcare and the increased offer, we are now able to actually spend more time with our children, because we're adjusting our hours of work, based on the childcare provision offer.' That in itself, I have to say, is a worthy aim. But I would say what we found out, in real-life examples—I'm not saying that in direct contrast to what that paper was saying—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's what I was going to ask; it sounds as if you're saying they were wrong.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: But what we have is the advantage of this phased roll-out, where we are learning, live time, and I think the Arad report in October—we're hoping to see the final report in October—will help put some flesh on this as well. It is already having an effect: the majority of parents who are taking advantage of this are actually in those groups that are below the average wage, they are making positive choices to get into this offer and to either expand, take more hours, adjust their own lifestyles around it or more. So, it's having a positive effect. I can cite to you examples, because I've asked my own officials on this, of families who tell us they're saving up to £250 a week on the basis of this offer within the pilot areas, who've increased their hours of employment, who've changed their working patterns to suit their work life, but also to suit their families. Now, that's real stuff, as opposed to—yes.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, in effect, you are saying that the PPIW report got it wrong, basically.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, I'm not saying that they got it wrong and it's wholly wrong, but it is interesting, within that report, that it did identify that there were a range of factors here that play upon this. It's not only the childcare; it is the transport, it's the training and education, it's the employment support and all of those. And we agree with that, but we do think, and what we're seeing, live time, at the moment—maybe at some point, somebody else will produce a report beyond the Arad report in October that will say, 'Well, actually, the way this is designed, that they've done it in Wales, is having a material effect on those families, particularly the most disadvantaged families.'
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you're asking us to support a Bill here, albeit a framework Bill, to achieve a policy aim where you're giving us anecdotal evidence that it's having an impact, contrary to research that's previously been done, albeit with promises that, maybe, an evaluation sometime in the autumn might tell us a different story.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We know, and we are constantly told—I'm sure this is commonplace in constituency surgeries, as well—by parents who say that the biggest mitigating factor for them, actually, either going into work at an earlier opportunity or expanding their hours is purely the cost of childcare in front of them. We are picking up, even from the early term of the analysis—. I think our further reports, both Arad and as we go forward with the pilots, will substantiate this more. It'll go beyond the anecdotal, it will show that parents are having an enhanced opportunity to balance their work life, to make better choices, either in terms of expanding the number of hours they're working and increasing their disposable income within their families, or actually making it simply better for them in their family situation, where they don't currently have that offer. So, I get the fact that we have one report out there, but it's one report. It's a report, and we're not dismissing it entirely, but what we are saying is: we are now working with real-life piloting of an offer, and we are seeing the benefits coming through. As we roll this out, we'll be back in front of this committee saying, 'Well, this is now what we're finding. We can go beyond the real-life stories that I'm relating to you now, and we can say, "Well, here's some hard data that goes with this, as well."'
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. You reference in your paper, as well, another report, which is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report, 'Starting Strong 2017', and it highlights countries that have, maybe, the most similar childcare offer to what's being proposed here in Wales. I'm just wondering what assessment you've made of those similarities, because, clearly, there'll be different economic contexts in different countries and different levels of public expenditure, et cetera.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We haven't done really detailed analysis of comparisons with other countries far from Wales, but we will be doing work that will be doing some benchmarking against, where we can find similar models, where appropriate—do some appropriate benchmarking. What we have been doing is looking at what's been happening across the border in England and trying to learn from the lessons there, and also the offer in Scotland as well, which are both close to hand. They're in quite similar contexts. But we will do some work, Llyr, around benchmarking against good comparative international examples, where appropriate.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, there we are, because one of my concerns was that the focus in a number of the countries in the OECD report are for nought to three-year-olds, whereas, of course, the policy focus here is for a slightly older age group.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, and I fully get that, but again, and I know it can be said, 'Well, this is an example' but it's real-life examples. We are having people who are telling us that they're now making the choice to go to work earlier because this is extended to three-year-olds, but they would have delayed. There is a direct outcome there if this childcare offer enables somebody to say, 'Well, I'm going to go a year earlier back into work and bring income into the family.'
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. So, moving on, then, to the impact on the child and this whole question around school readiness, of course, which is an important one to address. Clearly, one of the main outcomes of this policy will be the academic performance of children, hopefully, later on in life. I want to come back to this point that the Children's Commissioner for Wales and others have raised: the concern that, actually, the most disadvantaged—those from workless households—are being excluded from this policy. Isn't there therefore a risk that they'll be left even further behind?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I've had long, detailed and positive discussions with the children's commissioner on this, and I know the children's commissioner would want a more universal offer, but I make two points on that: one is, that was not what the commitment in the manifesto was, and it's not the offer that's being taken forward now. It is a different thing, a universal offer, and there are issues around that with complexity, and also affordability. But it isn't the offer that we took forward into Government; this is what we're taking forward. But it is interesting in terms of that aspect of families then who lose out. I'd say two significant things on it: one is, this doesn't stand alone purely as 30 hours of childcare. Within this, there are 10 hours of the foundation years, educational input, which is there for everybody. But before that, particularly for those disadvantaged families, before we even get to that stage, you have schemes such as Flying Start, and I know this committee has looked in detail at Flying Start and has said that it would like to see it rolled out everywhere. If I had all the money under the sun, I would really do that, Chair; I would really do it. But I don't have all the money under the sun.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you do have the ability to target the money.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, but the fact that Flying Start, we know, is leading to those outcomes where those children, in quite challenged circumstances very often, are more ready to step up to the foundation year, are more ready, then, to step through into mainstream education in later years—those things tie together. So, there are the 10 hours of education provision that sits here for every family, by the way, within this offer, let alone the childcare. That doesn't mean that everybody's excluded, but it does mean, yes, that this offer is focused on working parents. And we don't think that that's a bad thing. In fact, it does overlap with other offers that other political parties were taking forward into the last election, which was focusing on how we support the biggest thing that we often have in our constituency mailbags, which is, 'I can't afford to go back to work because I can't afford the childcare. Don't tell me to go back to work, I can't afford it.'
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The majority of disadvantaged children don't live in Flying Start areas, do they?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, indeed.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, there's a missing cohort there that can't access one or the other, and the school readiness gap is growing, and, really, are we focusing our resources in the right place here?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, yes, in terms of this scheme, but it doesn't sit alone as this scheme—it's the wider plethora of, I have to say, progressive and advanced initiatives that we have in Wales that take different forms. It's not only Flying Start that provides that other support for parents, and readiness not only for the parents and for their children, but also the support into work. So, if, for example, you look at the Parents, Childcare and Employment programme, which is separate from this, there is support there for every parent in terms of helping them get supported into work from disadvantaged families. If you look at the support for the children, we've got the 10 hours that sits within the sphere of the education, but we've also got all the other family intervention programmes that help with socialisation, education and so on and so forth. If you look at this solely on its own and say, 'Well, there is nothing else there; the rest of Wales is a desert and there's no support for parents, for getting parents back into work or for those parents who are not seeking to go back into work but also need the support and for their children in education', I'd be worried. But, actually, this fits as part of the jigsaw that we have in Wales, where I think we are well ahead of the other nations. Yes, we could do more, and I always say, Llyr; I always say, Chair, that if I had—I don't have a chequebook at all, because it's not in my gift—if I had a blank cheque I'd do a lot more, but we don't. But what we can do is get the right schemes in place, and if this helps drive more choices for working parents, including, by the way—. There are niceties within this as well; it doesn't have to be that both parents are working. You could have a parent who is on incapacity benefit. You could have a parent who is a registered carer. They would qualify for the scheme. Those will be some of those most disadvantaged families that we both have those concerns about. So, there is some flexibility within this scheme as well to deal with some of those disadvantaged families.
Lynne Neagle AM: Darren on this.
Darren Millar AM: I am surprised by the answer there, particularly given that one of the ambitions of the Government is to close this attainment gap later in life when schoolchildren get to their examinations, when they're 16 years old. Yet this appears to be driving a bigger wedge in terms of development, which could, of course, lead to a perverse outcome later on in life, but I don't want to ask you about that. If I can just very quickly ask you: has consideration been given to making free childcare available to parents where they're in 16 hours or more of education each week? So, they may not be entering the labour market, but, of course, one of those barriers to them getting back into the labour market could well be their education, so what arrangements are in place there?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Darren, we have considered it, and we haven't included it within the scheme because this is designed to enable parents to go into work, not into training to enable them to get into work. There are other forms of support available for parents in terms of college and so on and so forth, but it's not this scheme.
Darren Millar AM: But it's not prescribed support, is it? You know, it's not universally available to people who might be wanting to get back into the labour market over that barrier. You must have done some costings, then, if you've considered it, and you must have tried to identify numbers.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I'm looking to my left and my right.
Owain Lloyd: Not at this point.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We haven't—
Darren Millar AM: So, you haven't considered it that much, have you?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We have actually considered—. We consider it from the point of, 'What is this scheme set up to do?' It's very clear. When we ran, in the manifesto on this point—
Darren Millar AM: I understand that. I don't want you to repeat yourself because I know we are against the clock. But, very specifically, when you say you've considered it, what you mean is you thought about it but you've not costed it, you've not identified the numbers that might be involved—
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Absolutely, absolutely.
Darren Millar AM: And therefore you've not considered whether it might be affordable in addition to the policy objective that this is trying to meet.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, Darren, you're right: we haven't considered affordability because we've considered it on first principles to do with what this offer is trying to do. It doesn't fit within the offer so, as such, why would we do the costings?
Darren Millar AM: Perhaps I can frame my question in another way. Are you prepared to consider it if you're able to identify the numbers and potential cost?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Ah, right, okay. We'd be interested in your thoughts as a committee, but it doesn't actually fit within the first principles of what the scheme is designed to do. Darren, can I just pick up on your point, in case you misinterpreted what I was saying to Llyr? I drew attention in my answer to Llyr to schemes such as the PaCE scheme. In Gwynedd, one of our pilot areas, they are combining the Team Around the Family with this childcare offer. So, what they are doing is wrapping the support around. It is not the case, as you've suggested then, that there is somehow more disadvantage being heaped on other families. What this does is tie in in those pilot areas with the existing provision, and that's the way we want to see it work. So, I wouldn't want you to be under any misapprehension that this makes conditions worse for families. Those families who have a registered carer in them where one parent works, and those families who have somebody on incapacity benefit will qualify for the scheme. All families will qualify for the 10 hours of education. In Gwynedd, they're wrapping the Team Around the Family with this offer—
Darren Millar AM: But on the other hand, Minister, you've also suggested that this will accelerate child development for those kids who are able to access it, and yet not all kids will be able to access it, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: But all children can access the 10 hours, and they can access Flying Start—
Darren Millar AM: But 10 hours is very different to 30 hours, is it not?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, but they can access Flying Start or they can access the Team Around the Family—
Darren Millar AM: If they're in a Flying Start area.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: —or they can be in a children's zone area or they can—
Darren Millar AM: If they're in those areas.
Lynne Neagle AM: Right, I've got John and then David, and the questions and answers are going to have to be brief, please.
John Griffiths AM: Yes, certainly, Chair. In terms of child development and how this fits with wider Welsh Government strategy, Huw, I'd be interested in what you'd have to say about the quality of childcare. We're talking a lot about quantity, but obviously we want to up quality, and that's recognised by Welsh Government. They've talked about increasing the qualifications within the workforce, and the quality. I just wonder how that sits within the £4.50, because there could be pressures in the opposite direction there, and some tension between wanting to up the qualifications and quality of workforce whilst keeping affordability in place.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: John, you're absolutely right, and two things on that: I visited one of the facilities in the Valleys the other day that was taking this forward—a very good independent sector-run childcare provision, with Welsh language and English language running alongside each other, and I asked the point about the integration, curiously, but what they were doing was—. Their standard of staff was an exemplar of what we'd want to see: not only very well-qualified childcare staff who were qualified within not simply the child-minding but the wider child development aspects—. So, it was hard to differentiate, in some ways, what was happening there from what would be happening in a child development educational surrounding, and including the nutritional stuff and all of that. Now, that is the model we need to see, and the £4.50 seems to work, at the moment, for that. It'll be interesting, as we discussed previously, as it goes forward—. We need to look at whether that works, going forward. But the quality, I think, is key, and that's why we're focused very much on registered inspected providers, as opposed to every Tom, Dick and Harriet.
John Griffiths AM: If we want to increase salary levels, though, which I think is a necessary part of this picture of improving quality, then obviously that might impact on the £4.50 rate.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, indeed, and we are cognisant—. It's interesting that we focus on whether the £4.50 is affordable, but the £4.50—you know, we're having an interesting discussion internally about how that £4.50 offer per hour sits alongside others, such as the foundation phase offer, and it's more generous. So, I think it's: how do we align, as time goes by, the child development aspects of the whole early years stuff? Now, we're doing some fascinating work that I think I've referred to on this committee before about aligning the early years development entirely. Now, this is an evolving piece of work, but I think the childcare offer should ultimately fit within that. How do you make sure that every offer that is Government-funded works on child development? It's not simply childcare.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Right. The next questions are from Mark.
Mark Reckless AM: In terms of child development and not accentuating disadvantage, another area where this may apply is the kids who are born in the summer term, compared to those who are born in Michaelmas. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that they start with a disadvantage at school and often don't make that up, even as they go through school. What is the rationale for providing the older children with five terms of this, compared to three terms for the younger children who already have the relative disadvantage?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I'm looking to my colleagues here and—
Jo-Anne Daniels: Well, the criteria for eligibility for the offer are the term after the child's third birthday, which is equivalent to the eligibility criteria for the foundation phase early education offer. Clearly, then, the number of terms that a child is able to, or parents are able to, access the childcare offer will be influenced by when the child is born, but I think you may be referring to a sort of parallel question, which is about whether—. There have been questions raised about whether children who are summer-born should, in fact, start school in the term after they turn four, or whether actually they should be allowed the flexibility to start school at a later age, which I know is something that has been tested in England, and there is some mixed evidence about school starting age and the birth month of children.
Mark Reckless AM: Well, they do have flexibility. You don't have to start your kids until the term following when they're five. That's the compulsory school—
Jo-Anne Daniels: Well, that's the legal position, but, obviously, in practice, most children will start school in the term after they're four.
Mark Reckless AM: So, given the disadvantage we know that the younger children born in the summer have, relative to the older ones, why accentuate that by giving the older kids five terms of this project, which you tell us will have such positive effects on their child development, but the summer kids only get three? Doesn't that make the situation worse?
Jo-Anne Daniels: I'm not 100 per cent sure I understand the question. So, children will stop being in receipt of the childcare offer once they become eligible for a full-time school place, and most children will become eligible for a full-time school place in the term after their fourth birthday.
Mark Reckless AM: But the older kids become eligible for this five terms before they start school, where the younger kids, who're already disadvantaged, become eligible for it only three terms before, accentuating the problem, surely. Could more thought be given to this issue?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We'll take that away. It's confused us a little bit, but we'll take that away. We might need to come back to you and—. Yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: If you could write to us about that, that would be helpful.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes.
Mark Reckless AM: Thank you. Minister, you got, or Welsh Government, really, got the Public Policy Institute for Wales to study this proposed policy and they concluded that it would have no substantial impacts on net income, poverty or work behaviour for families with children, and that the impact on work participation and work hours for mothers and families with a child of target age is extremely small. What do you say to that?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, Mark, I can only refer to what I said earlier. Our real-life evidence that is accumulating now is showing us examples of where people are making savings and increasing disposable income—as I mentioned earlier, up to £250 per week within some poorer households; so, real-life examples—but also where it's enabling them to make much better choices about when they work because there's more childcare offer available, or, alternatively, to work their childcare provision and their working hours around being able to spend more time with their children, which they currently can't do.
Lynne Neagle AM: And I don't want to go back over Llyr's questions.
Mark Reckless AM: I understand. That's not my focus. I just wondered about the quality of this PPIW piece of work. They said if you had a work requirement, as you do, it would cost £61 million a year on their numbers, substantially less than you're saying, and then they said it would cost £144 million without a work requirement. Now, that implies to me that 57 per cent of the parents wouldn't be working and would continue not working even if there is this available with a work requirement. I mean, are those numbers really credible from PPIW?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It's not quite comparing like with like. Just to draw your attention, Mark, and the committee's attention to that the PPIW analysis was looking at a provision of 38 weeks. Ours is a 48-week option. And the fact that we are having parents already saying to us that their ability to actually extend that into the 48 weeks—beyond the term time and so on—carries advantages that are not picked up in that report.
Mark Reckless AM: And what is your early assessment of the income levels of families who are finding this offer most attractive?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I think, from recollection, we're one term in, so we're one term into the assessment, and I mentioned earlier that the majority of parents are below the average income of £26,000 in Wales— it's around about 60 per cent of families are those. We're finding very few families are those who are on higher incomes. It's disproportionately towards those below the average income, and many of them amongst the most disadvantaged families are opting in to this offer where it is being offered. So, clearly, they're seeing the benefits of it.
Mark Reckless AM: And what consideration have you given to integrating this Welsh Government offer with the UK Government offer of tax-free childcare that's applicable across the UK?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, that offer, as you rightly say, is available across the UK and still is. The fact that it's more integrated within their scheme within England—the tax offer is more integrated—has caused them some problems in complexity and in the administration of this and the digital platforms that they've had. That offer is still available in Wales and it might well be that parents who opt in to that say, 'Well, we do want to buy additional hours beyond the 30 hours', but this 30 hours is there for every—
Mark Reckless AM: I wonder, Minister, whether what you're doing, in a very good way, to promote your project—people will see that as the childcare offer and, at least in my experience, very few parents are aware of the tax-free childcare on a UK basis.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: You're right—sorry. That's absolutely one of the lessons we've learnt from even this early stage of the early implementers, because there are elements of a childcare offer within the tax offer, within universal credit, within working tax credit. There are little bits of different ones and it does cause confusion. So, one of the lessons that we've learnt from the Talk Childcare communication strategy alongside this is the importance of communicating to parents and providers who the parents go to what is best for them to access, how they access it easily, and we'll learn more as these pilots roll by.
Mark Reckless AM: So, as you go into the Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs criteria—you have a £100,000 cap, as well as the £6,000 minimum wage cap, and you're getting HMRC to say whether people are eligible, which requires them to set up that account with HMRC—will you assure this committee that you will make sure that parents who are doing that are aware of the UK tax-free childcare offer, and that their providers also are? Because we've been looking, say, at the £7.50 extra per day, but, if someone's eligible for this offer, they should also be eligible for the UK tax-free childcare offer and have set up the account to do that. So, will you make sure that those parents know to pay their provider out of tax-free funds, rather than paying them the fully taxed amounts, which might otherwise happen?
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, absolutely. And I think, if it's okay, Owain would like to add something as well.
Owain Lloyd: Yes, just to say, as I understand how things currently work with the English offer and TFC, when a parent applies, that automatically happens in terms of, on the one hand, they're given a 'yes' or 'no' in terms of their eligibility for the 30-hours offer in England, but they will also be told in terms of the parental account that's set up under TFC. So, that is integrated in the offer, and we'll be looking to do the same in terms of the Welsh offer. But, obviously, what we're not looking at doing in terms of the 30-hours offer is the setting up of the parental account to make the payment; the payment currently is very much between local government and the provider directly, rather than the TFC model, where the parent pays the provider.
Mark Reckless AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Okay. Well, we have come to—well, we've run over, actually. So, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank the Minister and the officials for attending? You are, of course, back with us on 16 May for Stage 1 of the Bill, so we will look forward to seeing you then. You will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy, as is usual practice. But thank you again, all of you.
Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Lovely. Thank you—diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, item 3 then is papers to note. As Members can see, there are 11 papers to note. So, if Members are content, I'd suggest that we note all of them in a block, if that's okay. Yes, okay. Thank you. Item 4, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Okay. Thank you.
Query:
Summarize the whole meeting.
Answer:
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This meeting was about the Welsh Government's childcare offer. During the whole process, Huw Irranca-Davies, Jo-Anne Daniels, and Owain Lloyd answered questions given.The first topic was about the situation of early implementer local authority areas, mentioning what it had learned and the burden they had met. Turning to the childcare offer itself, Huw Irranca-Davies answered several questions regarding its quality and growth. Next, hourly rates of the service and workforce capacity had been emphasized, followed by the discussion of public policy. Moreover, the meeting talked about the impact on children as well as school readiness. The last part was mainly about the assessment of the income levels of each family.
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies, although Dawn Bowden is running late. I'll take this opportunity to welcome Dawn formally to the committee but also to place on record our thanks to John Griffiths for his service to the committee. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is a scrutiny session with a focus on higher and further education. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Cabinet Secretary for Education, Eluned Morgan, Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning, and Huw Morris, who is the group director of skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Thank you all for your attendance this morning. If you're okay with it, we'll go straight into questions. The first questions are from Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If we can just start with teacher training and teacher training for secondary school teachers in particular, obviously there's been what looks like a trend in recent years in filling the places for secondary school training. Obviously, this is at Welsh teacher training centres. Do you think there's still a problem recruiting teachers into the 300 priority places, or is there a trend where things are getting better?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. I think, for this year's intake, although we're in touch with our providers, we're not in a position to be able to give figures for this year's intake for a couple of months. But what we have seen over recent years is that we are only recruiting to about 65 per cent of those targets. So, there is still a job of work to do to understand and to respond to those needs. So, what we're doing is first of all making sure that our ITE provision is world class, so that, actually, Welsh centres are the place to go to train to be a teacher. You'll be aware that we've recently been through an accreditation process for new ITE provision that will start in the next academic year. We have looked at financial incentives. It's not the whole answer, I think, to these issues, but it's part of a mixture of things that we need to do. You'll be aware that, for priority subjects, with graduates with the very highest levels of qualifications, those financial incentives are now £20,000 a year. We're also embarking on our first ever national ITE recruitment marketing exercise. We have initially done some work in the last year specifically targeting Welsh students in studying for priority subject degrees, e-mailing them, sending them materials to ask them to consider (1) becoming a teacher, and (2) crucially coming to do that training here in Wales. We are now part of a full national programme of ITE recruitment, giving people that idea that you can serve your nation and your community by training to be a teacher. So, there's a whole package of things we need to do. In January of this year I set up an advisory board on the recruitment and retention of teaching staff, and we are awaiting some reports from that advisory group on what they feel that we should do next.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. I can see there's a lot of activity, but what exactly is it responding to? Presumably, some research has been done about why people don't want to become teachers so that the answers you come up with are appropriate answers. I can't believe it's just about ITE, although this is very valuable, what you're talking about. Is there something that's running through our younger learners at the moment that makes them think that teaching isn't a profession they want to go into? Is that something that's happening just in Wales or is it happening elsewhere as well?
Kirsty Williams AM: No. I think what you will find is that this isn't a uniquely Welsh issue. I think they are suffering quite acute problems across the border, which proves to me that money isn't necessarily the entire answer, because, despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses, they're not able to do that in England either. So, that proves to me—what the research does show—that it's not money alone that will get people onto these courses. Interestingly, I don't even think it's a UK problem. Recently, as you'll be aware via my written statement, I attended the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory, which is a system-to-system conference. If you talk to education systems in different parts of the world, the one common factor that we are all grappling with is teacher recruitment and retention. In the USA, they have seen a 40 per cent drop in the number of students training to be teachers. So, in the Californian system, significant teacher shortages, and in Oregon, Washington. I met with New York state—significant teacher recruitment and retention problems in New York state, and in Finland, Australia. So, this is a common issue across the globe, really. That's why we set up the advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor John Gardner—it's to understand what the issues are exactly that are preventing people or putting people off. One of the things that we have got strong performance in, and I think this is perhaps something that we're trying to follow up on, are employment-based routes into qualified teacher status—so, those are people who are training on the job. Those remain strong. There's high demand for those places, so much so that we've increased those places to 90 last year and 90 again this year, which says to me that—there's definitely a place for the traditional, 'Take a year off, do a postgraduate certificate in education in a university for a year'—actually, that type of course suits some students but it might be preventing other people from pursuing a qualification in teaching, which is why, of course, from next year, we will have our unique part-time PGCE route into qualification. So, that allows people to perhaps combine some of their employment opportunities, so they can earn while they learn, or maybe they've got caring responsibilities that prevent them from going to do a full-time course. I think that will give us an alternative route that people can take to gain qualified teacher status and work in our schools. So, there's no one thing, I think, that we can do that will solve this issue. But it is an international issue, I agree with that.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's what I was after finding out, and, actually, what you've just said about the part-time PGCE is pretty interesting as well, because if you can bring your outside world experience into teaching, that's got to help, hasn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Can I just agree with you? I think that is really, really important—that we have a diversity in our teaching workforce. I think the different dynamic that brings to a school and the experience that brings to children is really, really valuable. I was up in the Deeside Sixth just last week, talking to the A-level chemistry teacher. She had been a teacher for a while, she'd gone into industry, worked in industry, and now had come back into teaching. She said that she felt that that made her a better educator and she could talk with knowledge and experience about the opportunities outside of teaching that the students in front of her could pursue. I'm very keen to increase the diversity in our teaching workforce and I'm very keen in looking at career changers, who perhaps have different life experience and work experience, coming into our teaching profession.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Part of that diversity, of course—it would be great if you had more people interested in qualifying to teach through the medium of Welsh. Great aspirations; the trend's going the other way. No-one can solve this in 280 characters, I get that, but can you give us some indication about why you think this is proving still such an unattractive option when it's clear that there's a policy for this country to improve the number of Welsh speakers? You'd have thought there'd be a pretty good carrot for this.
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. Again, data for recruitment for the 2018-19 cohort is not yet available and we are, as I said, keeping in touch with our ITE centres to keep a close eye on them. I think an important thing to recognise is that there is a difference between the number of people who are on courses where there is a specific designation that enables them to teach through the medium of Welsh and those people who have linguistic ability and Welsh ability but don't necessarily do a course that allows them. So, there is a difference. We do think that, for the 2016-17 cohort, there were an additional 130 qualifiers that, actually, were fluent in Welsh and who could have gone on to teach in Welsh-medium schools, didn't necessarily do a course that gave them that designation. But, clearly, we've got three academic years now to get to the targets that we've set ourselves. The evaluation of Welsh-medium provision in ITE reported at the end of last month, and the Minister and officials are busy working now to implement the recommendations of the report that was published, I think, on 28 September, to be able to move this agenda forward. Again, we've got new incentives, this year, both for people starting their course and then for teachers who complete their QTS after a year. So, we've added in new financial incentives this year to try and address some of those issues. But, clearly, these are ambitious targets and we will need to have a step change over the next three years if we're to meet them.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you for that answer. We're now talking about cohorts of students coming into PGCE and teaching degrees. If they're from Wales, they will have had Welsh as part of their education from day one, and we'll accept there are varying qualities in different parts of Wales, different attitudes towards it as well. But there isn't a single a person now who's been through Welsh education who can say they have no Welsh at all, unless they've moved into the system from, say, England very, very recently. What is being done within the teaching qualifications, including the degrees, to ensure that, at least in Welsh universities, those nascent Welsh language skills are at least kept alive, even though we're not talking necessarily about being at a level where people can teach through the medium? It's the age-old question: once the school gate closes, is that the end of their Welsh use? So, is there something—it won't be Donaldson, but in the teacher training qualifications—that is keeping this going and, hopefully, increasing the usability of the Welsh skills they have?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, in terms of how we can encourage children who have got Welsh skills as a result of their education up to 16, how they can continue to use those skills and, potentially, use them in the workplace, I'm sure Eluned will want to talk about some of the work, for instance, in other, non-teaching sectors. But, with regard to ITE, you'll be aware that, in the evaluation report, as I said, that was published, the report comes forward with two options in how we could develop an intervention programme to support Welsh language skills amongst all primary and secondary ITE entrants. So, what we'll be doing now as a result of that report is that we'll be working very closely with our ITE centres to develop and agree upon minimum provision that constitutes those skill levels within ITE provision for all teachers.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: You have your targets for 2021, in terms of numbers of teachers coming through the system, which is positive, although, clearly, the report or the review itself said that, actually, we need to double the numbers, really. But it's not just the trends that are going down; it's a cataclysmic drop, really. We've lost 24 per cent in the number of people over the last four or five years who are going into teacher training to study subjects that they could teach through the medium of Welsh. So, it's a huge turnaround that we're looking for, and I'm not getting the feeling that the level of ambition and the answers that you're giving here this morning reflect the level of action that's needed, really.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, as I tried to illustrate to Suzy, the figures on their own tell one story, but there are additional people in the system with an ability to speak Welsh and to be able to use—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: I think it's 40 per cent of those who are currently in the system who don't—
Kirsty Williams AM: —the language and skills. And if we look at qualifiers of ITE courses in Wales by degree type, actually, we see a different trend—we see numbers going up. So, there are statistics and there are statistics. Depending on which ones you look at, it's quite a complex picture. And that's why we had the evaluation report. We understand and we know and acknowledge that there is more work to be done. That's why we have got the evaluation of provision in ITE and that's why we'll be taking that ambition forward. We know what we need to do. As I said, we're not sitting back and hoping that something miraculous will change things. We are pulling levers and putting in place plans to improve that situation.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you for that. Clearly, there are statistics and there are statistics, so could you just explain to us which statistics you've used for your targets for growth over the next three years?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that comes as a result of the work done for the 2050—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Upon which baseline are you basing the increases that you're projecting?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using the baseline of 2012-13. There has been a decline since then.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's the one I was using when I said '24 per cent reduction'.
Kirsty Williams AM: There has been a decline in those numbers. That's why, as I said, we're doing the work that we need to do to reverse that decline. In using those numbers, we also know that there are additional people in the system who are not captured in those figures and who do have the linguistic ability to use their language positively in school settings. So, what I'm saying is that that doesn't tell us the whole story, but I will be the first to admit that there is a significant job of work with our ITE providers to ensure that we will have the skilled professionals that we need to deliver on our ambitions, and I'm not hiding from that.
Eluned Morgan AM: Also, I just think it's worth saying that a lot of this is about building the confidence of those people who actually can speak Welsh, who are not teaching through the medium of Welsh, and to give them that support. First of all, we need to identify who these people are, so there is a job of work being undertaken now in terms of registration in particular—when people register, let's just make sure that we collect that kind of data.
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't even do that consistently at the moment. One of the recommendations of the report is that there is no consistent approach to understanding this baseline data and there's no consistent competency test that people start at the beginning of their course, so we need a national approach rather than leaving it to individual institutions.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Have we missed any tricks, potentially, in terms of the reforms to accrediting ITE, for example, in terms of, maybe, strengthening aspects around the Welsh language and provision in that respect?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I don't believe so. The accreditation process, which is independent of the Government—the accreditation process demands of our ITE providers that their provision will be able to meet the goals of our curriculum. Our curriculum is very clear about the equality of the language and the ability of our children, through all stages of their education journey, to be able to be bilingual children.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, that requirement, as far you're concerned, is there.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, okay. Diolch—thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Before I turn to Hefin, can I just clarify—? In answer to Suzy Davies, you said that 65 per cent of the places in Welsh training centres had been filled. Is that 65 per cent of the priority places?
Kirsty Williams AM: Priority places.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much.
Kirsty Williams AM: Sixty-five per cent of the priority courses are being met.
Lynne Neagle AM: Lovely, thank you for clarifying that. Hefin.
Hefin David AM: The decision by the Education Workforce Council not to accredit the University of South Wales with the ability to deliver teacher training—what are your views and concerns about that?
Kirsty Williams AM: The process is independent of Government, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that, especially as I understand that there is an appeals process that may be being undertaken. What I would say is that from the very outset of our ITE reforms we have made it very clear that I expect very high standards in our ITE system, but the process is independent of this Government. I have confidence in the people who have been appointed by the EWC to undertake that process, but it is independent of me, and it's not appropriate for me to comment on that further.
Hefin David AM: I fully understand that and the need for distance for the EWC, but there'll be an impact on students and staff. Students, first of all: are you concerned that the reduction in providers might have an impact on students, and those students going through the second year at USW? Would you have concerns about that issue?
Kirsty Williams AM: In terms of the overall numbers, we will be looking to commission from those institutions that have been accredited the number of training places that our planning tool says that we need. So, in terms of an overall number of places, we will commission from those accredited units. Clearly, there will be a responsibility upon the University of South Wales to ensure that those students already in the system are able to complete their studies and their course, with the appropriate level of support and tuition to enable them to achieve their career aspirations and to graduate from that programme.
Hefin David AM: And what about the uncertainty for staff, or would you say that's an issue for the university itself?
Kirsty Williams AM: These are autonomous bodies. They have to act accordingly, in compliance with any employment law or any statutory responsibilities that they would have as an employer. That's not a matter for me; that is a matter for the institution that is an autonomous body.
Hefin David AM: But I would be surprised if you weren't keeping an eye on this, given that it has been a key provider. Are you aware of when the appeal decision will be known?
Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding is that the appeals process is ongoing, and next month, perhaps. But as I said, this is a process that is independent of Government—
Hefin David AM: But it will have an impact for what you do.
Kirsty Williams AM: It will potentially change the nature of the people from whom we commission places, but as I said, I do not have any concerns that we will not be in a position to commission the appropriate number of training places that we will need as a result of our planning.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy on this—mindful of what the Minister said about it being an independent decision.
Suzy Davies AM: It's not directly about USW; it's about the geographic spread of provision. I wonder if you could just give us a snapshot of what that looks like, and whether you think—certainly for PGCE or postgrad courses, anyway—that if they're not accessible geographically and we've got students who already have three years' worth of debt, they're not going to be looking to, necessarily, live away from home for a fourth year, and may want to study nearer home. Has there been any research done on the access to these postgrad courses, about where people are coming from and whether that's had an impact on the fact that some of these places haven't been filled?
Kirsty Williams AM: Currently, with our current providers, there is a significant geographical spread. There are centres here in the south-east, there are centres in the south-west, in mid Wales, and in north Wales. Obviously, accessibility is an issue for us. We do think that, for some students, accessibility is an issue, and of course that's why we are responding with our part-time PGCE route, which actually will be location neutral, because you will be able to study that as a distance learner, and so you will be able to remain in your community and undertake that course. So, that's part of the attractiveness, I believe, of offering that to people. So, if geographical disadvantage is stopping somebody from pursuing a career aspiration to qualify as a teacher, our new part-time PGCE, as I said, will allow them to do that.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thanks, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We're going to move on now to talk about reform and reconfiguration of the post-16 education sector. Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Good morning. There are some encouraging provisional signs regarding the demand for part-time undergraduate study for the first year of Diamond, but the £12.5 million reduction Higher Education Funding Council for Wales is having to make this academic year has potentially placed the funding for part-time provision under pressure. Is there a danger that, without maintaining and growing this funding, Welsh Government will undermine the Diamond reforms and increase the cost of part-time courses?
Kirsty Williams AM: Let's be absolutely clear what this Government has done for part-time students. We are unique, Janet: unique in the UK and, I believe, unique in Europe, in the parity of the support that is available for full-time and part-time students. So, Welsh part-timers have something that they do not get if they are in England or if they're in Scotland. It's too early to have definitive figures for the impact of Diamond on the number of people who are undertaking part-time study. I don't want to get into trouble by not having that verified data, and I know Members get testy with me for anecdotal evidence, but I can tell you this: there is one provider that is reporting at this moment a 40 per cent increase in the number of students that are registered to start part-time study with them this year, as compared to last year, and that reflects really, really well, compared to the onward downward trend that we see across the border for part-time. What this means, for us as a nation, is that people are able to take this opportunity to upskill themselves and to be able to develop their qualifications and to be able to move themselves up career ladders, and I think that's such an important economic factor for us. So, rather than feeling doom and gloom about the prospects for the part-time sector, the early indications, at least, show that the Diamond reforms are leading to an increase in demand and, more importantly, an increase in uptake—students taking advantage of that system to go away and study.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Is the Welsh Government able to reassure the committee that its ambitions for the post-compulsory education and training reforms are still in line with the original Hazelkorn recommendations, and go beyond the Labour manifesto commitment of simply replacing HEFCW with a new funding body for HE and FE?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. So, you will be aware, Janet, that the agreement between myself and the First Minister that brought me into the Government and the Government's programme state very clearly about our desire to pursue the recommendations of the Hazelkorn report. I hope, by the end of this week, we will have published the responses to the technical consultation, and we will continue to move forward. And I would argue, certainly, that the reforms that we are intending to implement do go beyond just simply a body that replaces HEFCW and joins in FE. It's a much wider remit to the potential new commission. And, as I said, I believe we've had in the region of about 450 responses to the technical consultation and I'm pleased to say that there remains a consensus—we will always have some arguments about the details—but there remains a consensus on the direction of travel that we are pursuing. A summary of the consultation responses will be available to Members and will be published by the end of the week.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Is the Welsh Government still committed to introducing the PCET Bill before the end of the fifth Assembly, and are you confident this will happen?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I'm absolutely determined that we will get the PCET legislation on the floor. It's a substantial piece of work, as you've just alluded to. This goes just beyond abolishing a single body. So, it is a substantial piece of work, but I believe that we are on track to be able to do that by the end of this term. But it's a big piece of work.
Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr, on this.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Can I just pick up on that? I mean, it is going to be a big job, and, clearly, there's a strong focus on creating the commission and putting the structures in place, but, of course, one of the drivers is that we want to effect a cultural change in the way that people perceive post-16 education. This thing about parity of esteem and all that kind of agenda. And a key part of this process, therefore, is the vision that people are waiting for. When are we going to see this coming forward? Because I think we're putting structures in place, so there's a big discussion about the technical stuff, but I feel there's a bit of a vacuum in terms of the vision.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would disagree with you, Llyr, because—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Right, okay. Well, maybe you should have come to the cross-party group on further education last night.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would disagree with you because, of course, the technical consultation has followed what we had last year, which was a consultation on the vision, on what we needed to do to bring the sector together beyond just HE and FE, to the inclusion of sixth forms; work-based learning providers; apprenticeships; and bringing all of that together under one body. I believe that that gives us an opportunity to have better strategic planning; to help us prevent duplication; to help us bridge gaps that are not available for learners at the moment. It will, hopefully—. My vision is that it will promote collaboration between institutions rather than simply having the market-based process that we see in other places where there's competition rather than collaboration. I want to see it strengthen links between schools, FE and HE, strengthen links between schools and employers and business, to make sure that we've got better information and advice services so that young people know what their pathways are and can make really informed choices about what's best for them, to help them make them. So, I think: we've done the vision, we're now doing the technical consultation, that will be published by the end of the week, and we'll move forward with our overarching vision that Hazelkorn elaborated and that we are now taking forward.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you would be very concerned if FE institutions were saying that we really need to see the vision, that that's the next step, that we really need to understand the vision.
Kirsty Williams AM: But, I've met—. As I said, I was with one of our excellent FE leaders just at the end of last week; it wasn't raised with me then. I do understand that there are concerns from the FE sector about will the vision be realised. I think there's a shared understanding of the vision, but I understand and I do see some nervousness about, actually, in the end, will this just be HEFCW by another name, and, the opportunity for FE, will this be realised in this new body? We need to keep ensuring that, as we go forward and develop the policy, and as we develop, eventually, the legislation, that that parity of esteem and that true equality across all parts of the sector is realised.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much. Our next questions are from Michelle Brown.
Michelle Brown AM: Good morning, Cabinet Secretary; good morning, Minister. Your paper to the committee says that there's a need for more analysis and research into the outcomes for learners from different backgrounds. At the same time, Welsh universities have declared £104 million towards equality and opportunity activity for 2018. If you don't have the analysis, how can you be sure that the investment that's being made by the Welsh universities is actually going to have a positive outcome in the right places and lead to better outcomes for underrepresented groups?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, of course, that would be one of the duties of the new commission set up as a result of our post-compulsory education and training reforms that I would anticipate. The universities are required, under the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015, to produce fee and access statements, and the £104 million that they have to take off their fees to be able to promote this work—those fee and access plans have to be signed off by the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales as being robust and truly promoting equality of opportunity. They're also there to promote access and the opportunities for people to aspire to higher education. We are looking at—. It's quite early days, still, for that new regulatory regime to come through, so we ask HEFCW, when I meet with HEFCW, about the adequacy of those plans. Equity is an important part of my approach to higher education. That's why we're introducing the Diamond reforms—so that those from the poorest backgrounds can be adequately financially supported and are not put off from going to a university. And we're also looking—. I would envisage under PCET a better mechanism of tracking destinations for learners. So, for instance, in the FE sector, we're introducing new joint monitoring for outcomes for sixth-form learners and FE learners, because we've never tracked them in the same way. So, we're introducing that now so that we can see the destinations for those two sectors, but the PCET reforms give us an opportunity to do that right across the board. Huw, is there anything else I need to add?
Huw Morris: Well, I'd just reinforce the point the Cabinet Secretary made about the fee and access plans being the vehicle through which we get universities to specify what they're going to do, and the funding council tracks that. To make sure that we're doing that in a full and appropriate manner, periodically, we ask for that system to be reviewed. I think it was in 2017 that the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods—the research arm of Cardiff University—reviewed the system and looked at how widening access was being promoted by different institutions and whether that was working in all parts of Wales. The report from that group was considered by one of the sub-committees in HEFCW and they are revising the process as a consequence. So, I think we can be confident that there are ambitious targets that are monitored, and, periodically, the system as a whole is reviewed.
Michelle Brown AM: Can you tell us what sort of research and data the universities are basing those access plans on? I assume they'll all have slightly different methods—I appreciate that—but can you give us any idea of how they actually formulate these access plans?
Huw Morris: So, there are data collected across the UK by a body called the Higher Education Statistics Agency. They produce detailed breakdowns, along with UCAS, of where applicants come from, which institutions did they study at, what courses, what their particular characteristics are, including their socioeconomic status, and that data is then analysed at a UK level and in Wales, through HEFCW and its agents, to track what's happening at different institutions at different stages, not just in terms of who's applying and who gets access, but who progresses and what happens to people once they've graduated.
Michelle Brown AM: So, there is already data there. I'm just wondering how that data that's already there differs from the research and analysis that you were talking about in your paper. They must be different, then. What specific analysis and research were you referring to in your paper?
Kirsty Williams AM: We use the HESA—. It is HESA, isn't it?
Huw Morris: Yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: That's shorthand—the HESA data, and institutions use that. We also then use WISERD and other organisations to supplement that piece of work. I think there is a challenge to some of this going forward. So, the Office for Students in England now is having some discussions about access to HESA data. This is a source of real concern to me, that Welsh institutions may not be able to have the ready access to that data because of changes the OfS may be making. So, we supplement where we think that there's value to be added in additional breakdowns, or in additional slicing of data and understanding of what is motivating people to come forward.
Huw Morris: And to give you a specific example of that as it applies in north Wales—. So, take a university like Wrexham Glyndŵr University; they have quite a large intake of mature students. The data that's collected and analysed at a UK level tends to look at people who are going into university at a young age, not a mature profile. So, some of the analysis that we do in Wales—indeed, the deliberations of the sub-committee that I spoke about earlier—is about how do we make sure that those differences in Wales are reflected in the data and reflected in the targets that are set.
Michelle Brown AM: Okay.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Cabinet Secretary, are you in favour of more university mergers?
Kirsty Williams AM: I wouldn't use the word 'agnostic', but what I'm in favour of is a healthy, strong and sustainable HE sector. If individual institutions wish to collaborate or, indeed, go further to a formal merger then, obviously, that is a matter for them. We're not pursuing or urging a policy of mergers, but, if individual institutions feel that is of benefit to them and their students, obviously, we would have an interest in that and making sure that they were robust plans, but that's a matter for individual institutions.
Hefin David AM: But HEFCW are pushing it.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, what HEFCW are interested in is a sustainable HE sector that is strong but, as I said, I do not have a burning desire or a set policy to try and pursue mergers.
Hefin David AM: Okay. That's a little bit of a contrast with your predecessors, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that's a matter for them.
Hefin David AM: Okay. The reason I say it is because I was kind of on the inside when Cardiff Metropolitan University was under pressure from the then Minister to merge with the University of Glamorgan and Newport. It was a very difficult time for staff and, indeed, for students. You had the University and College Union and the Minister pushing it; the vice-chancellor of Cardiff Met at the time very much against it. So, do you think that it's really—? You're agnostic, but do you think perhaps it's not worth the disruption that can occur to staff and students?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, Hefin, I have no formal policy for reconfiguration or mergers. That's not to say I don't believe in collaboration between institutions. Going back to the issue of ITE, a very interesting programme came forward from Cardiff Met and Cardiff University for their ITE provision. So, I'm all for universities and institutions working together, but there's no formal policy. These are autonomous institutions. If they see that there is an advantage—I would hope for the student first, and, if we put the student at the front of this process, then we would obviously have an interest in that and making sure that that was the right thing to do. But, certainly, there is no pressure from us as a Government to pursue an agenda of mergers.
Hefin David AM: Just to be clear, then, that's likely to be a policy for the foreseeable future as well; you're not going to change that view.
Kirsty Williams AM: I have no intentions at this stage, but 'Events, dear boy'. [Laughter.] You know, sometimes there may be a situation that I cannot foresee at this moment that would necessitate, for the benefit of students, the benefit of Wales, a merger. So, never say never, but, at this point in time, I do not foresee us changing that policy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Julie on this.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, just looking back at that time, which I remember very vividly—
Hefin David AM: So do I.
Julie Morgan AM: I had many meetings with Cardiff Met. Do you feel there has been any disadvantage to Cardiff Met because that merger didn't go ahead?
Kirsty Williams AM: I, personally, am not aware of any disadvantage to Cardiff Met, but I would recognise—I would absolutely recognise—for staff and students caught up in those deliberations and those issues, then that would have had a personal impact on them. In terms of the institution going forward, I'm not aware that they are currently struggling with any disadvantage from that discussion. And, as I said, I'm really heartened by some of the really interesting collaborative work that Cardiff Met are interested in doing, and new partnerships and new collaborations between institutions, whether that be Cardiff Uni or local colleges, and I think that's to be welcomed.
Julie Morgan AM: So, following on from what Hefin said, was it worth all the fuss?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, look, as it's turned out, we have a strong institution in Cardiff Met, and I think, rather than looking at the past, we need to look at the future. But, of course, there was some reconfiguration and we need to understand any lessons that arose out of reconfiguration, and HEFCW are currently doing some work, actually, to look at reconfiguration, the experience of reconfiguration that did happen, and were benefits realised and what are the lessons that can be learned from that process. So, they are doing a piece of work to reflect, and that will, perhaps, help inform us as we go forward.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, Hefin.
Hefin David AM: I'd just say—Julie Morgan was one of our heroes at the time, I've got to say.
Eluned Morgan AM: She always is.
Hefin David AM: And still is. If I turn that on its head and have a look at University of South Wales, one of the concerns I'm getting from former colleagues and staff is that the Newport aspect—because it was a merger between Newport and the University of Glamorgan—has been somewhat denuded by the merger, and the amount of activity in the new Newport campus and elsewhere in Newport has been reduced by the merger. Are you aware of those concerns that staff may have?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, it's not for me to second-guess the judgment of previous Ministers who pursued—
Hefin David AM: But it's happening now, I mean.
Kirsty Williams AM: —a particular policy agenda. With regard to Newport, we are aware of concerns. Obviously, one campus closed completely, and there are concerns about the level of activity at the new campus. And we continue to discuss with the University of South Wales and the local FE college what offer is available to the local population, but also the wider contribution that that institution can make to the rest of Wales, and we continue to have conversations with both the college and the university about utilisation of the facilities in Newport and opportunities that could be made available in Newport.
Hefin David AM: That's interesting, because that's the first time I've heard it confirmed from the Government that those concerns that have been raised by former staff and colleagues in Newport are actually echoed by yourself, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, we're aware of them. We take our time to listen to people. When people raise issues with us, we take them seriously. Clearly, going back to the point that I believe Suzy made about geographical coverage, we want to make sure that FE and HE opportunities are available for people throughout Wales, and we continue to work with providers in that area to explore what can be done to enhance the opportunities.
Hefin David AM: And, from a financial point of view, they had £25 million for the merger. Are you satisfied that's value for money, and, at this point in the 10-year plan, that things are going as they should, with incomes being squeezed across the sector?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I mean, it's difficult, isn't it, to second-guess what would have happened, what might have happened, if the merger hadn't gone ahead, around the financial stability and sustainability of an institution. How do you prove that, if that hadn't happened, something worse or something better might have happened? It's difficult to do that and to second-guess those judgments, but, as I've said, what I am interested in—. And I can't change that decision that was made by a previous Minister—it wasn't my decision—but what I can do is to ensure that any lessons learnt, any evaluation of that particular set of circumstances, can be looked at and can help inform future policy, which is why HEFCW is doing the piece of work. When that's published, you and I will be in a better position to understand whether the aspirations of that particular merger were realised, not realised, and if we were in that situation again, could we do it better next time?
Hefin David AM: Okay, so you'll reflect on that later. At this point in time, you don't have any concerns about the long-term sustainability of the University of South Wales.
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at this point.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. The Welsh Government's draft outline budget for 2019 states that it will continue to provide £20 million to further and higher education in 2019-20. Can you outline how this will be allocated between HE and FE and if conditions will be attached to the funding?
Kirsty Williams AM: Janet, you will have to wait until the end of the month, when the detailed, main expenditure group by main expenditure group lines of the budget are published, otherwise I will be stealing the finance Minister's thunder. There is a process by which the Welsh Government's budget is dealt with, and those details will emerge later on this month.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Kirsty Williams AM: But can I just say on conditions—? You will be aware that there are conditions attached to Government spend, both in the FE sector and in the HE sector. Those budgets will be subject to those existing arrangements; so, for instance, in the HE sector, the remit letter to HEFCW.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Can I just pick up on funding, generally? Sorry. Because, we did talk about HEFCW and part-time funding earlier, and I'm not sure that we addressed the issue of this £12.5 million cut in a specific budget line from HEFCW, because what they've done, if I understand correctly, is that they've put four priorities into one budget line, which includes part-time teaching, and cut that budget line by £12.5 million. Are you not concerned that that'll have an impact on part-time teaching, given that it's such a success story that you're proud of?
Kirsty Williams AM: HEFCW have to take cognisance of the remit letter, but then, ultimately, they are free to allocate resources as they see fit. What will drive part-time provision is the students taking it up, and universities responding to that desire and that need within their institutions. So, at this moment, I don't have any concerns.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We're going to move on now to look at the parity of esteem between academic and vocational post-16 education. The first question is from Michelle.
Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. Welsh Government wants to achieve parity of esteem between academic and vocational education, and I think that's a very laudable aim. Higher apprenticeships are a key part of this, but Estyn's recent inspection found that only four providers from 17 were achieving good outcomes for learners. What action do you propose to take about this, to make sure that those learners have much better outcomes across the board?
Eluned Morgan AM: First of all, just to make it clear that that is very much our intention. I think we have got work to do to make sure that we do reach that parity of esteem, but let's be clear that, in relation to these higher level apprenticeships, we were concerned that, actually, we weren't doing as well, perhaps, as we should be, which is why we commissioned Estyn to look at this specifically, and what it was that we were doing well, and what we needed to improve on. One of the things that we found is that we are doing very well in relation to foundation courses in terms of attainment—we've got 83 per cent attainment levels—but if you look at that at higher level apprenticeships, then we've got 77 per cent, so what is going wrong there? But, also, it's worth underlining the fact that, actually, we're still miles ahead of England, who are only reaching levels of about 61 per cent. So, we're already doing much better than England, but we're ambitious, and we want to make sure that if we are serious about this parity of esteem, how do we get there if we're not offering the kind of quality that we'd like to see in those higher level apprenticeships? So, some of the recommendations in that report, we'll be taking up. We want to increase the number of new employers and mentors within the system. I think we're also very keen to make sure that people don't repeat learning that they've already done. That's a danger and it takes up too much time. So, there are lots of these recommendations that now we'll set in motion, and I think the important thing for us then is to understand that, in relation to who's doing well and who's not doing well in the FE sector, the bulk of where that finance goes is actually doing quite well. It's pushing some of the private sector providers where we need to actually make sure that the quality is where we want it to be, and is, very importantly, matching the needs of employers. So, we've constantly got to be looking at the courses: are they responding to the needs of the market and what employers are looking for? And that means revising the offer sometimes in terms of the courses.
Michelle Brown AM: Where are the difficulties arising—? You refer to difficulties arising with the private providers. What are those difficulties?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, some of it is about, perhaps, not giving the kind of guidance that we'd like them to give in-house. So, they're perhaps not doing the kind of on-the-job work that we'd like them to do. So, I think it's making sure that, when they're in the workplace, they are still being pushed to attain those levels. But I think it's clear that what we need to do is to also listen to what the advisory board that we've set up in relation to apprenticeships is also asking us, and we've got the Confederation of British Industry advising us on that as well.
Michelle Brown AM: Do you have a service level agreement with the private providers?
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes. I mean, the whole thing is under a tender procedure, obviously, and we will be revising that soon. There'll be a new apprenticeship procurement process that we'll be undergoing and starting to look at that process next year. So, there's an opportunity there for us to drive change in the system.
Michelle Brown AM: Would you be willing to share the targets under the SLA with the committee?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I think the—. I can't see that there'd be a problem with that, so I'm sure we could do that, but I think the way to make people move, quite often, is through making sure that you put the finances where they need to be, and then they're likely to shift. And, so, I think, in responding to this Estyn report, we can then build that into the next framework.
Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Julie.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you. Right, I wanted to ask about the investment. If we're going to get parity of esteem, we've got to, probably, get more investment in. Could you say why there isn't more investment in degree, and there doesn't seem to be any investment in Master's-level apprenticeships at universities?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I think we've got to be careful that what happens is that the state doesn't pick up what, currently, people are prepared to pay for themselves, and, so, we've got to just make sure that that balance is right. So, what's happened in England, for example, is lots of people who were previously sitting Master of business administration courses, for example, are now switching into apprenticeship programmes. So, the system—it means that, previously, they were prepared to pay and now the state is paying or the employer's playing it in a slightly different way. So, I think we've got to just be aware about how—making sure that we don't get employers passing that responsibility that, actually, they have to upskill and to uptrain their workers and pass it back on to the state, whereas, actually, they need to step up as well as employers.
Julie Morgan AM: So, how are you going to judge that? How are you going to tell when, maybe, you should start putting some money in?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, what we are doing is we're putting money into areas where we know there are skills shortages. So, we're focusing where we want those apprenticeships—and particularly at the higher level—to be. So, for example, we're looking at ICT; we're looking at construction. There are areas where we definitely need to be focusing our attention. So, that's where we'll be prioritising our funding, and that's what we're doing already.
Kirsty Williams AM: And that's for degree-level apprenticeships, not Master's. Just degree-level apprenticeships.
Julie Morgan AM: Right, thank you. And then, in terms of getting data, could you clarify the progress on developing outcome and destination data for higher apprenticeships? Your plan seems to suggest that data won't be available until 2020-21, at the end of the programme.
Eluned Morgan AM: And that's because we're only just starting on this, and it takes a long time for people to complete an apprenticeship. So, we won't have anybody going from the higher level apprenticeship into a destination until around 2021, so there's no point in measuring that until that point.
Julie Morgan AM: Right. And then, can you tell us when you'll publish Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol's new operational plan to develop post-16 Welsh-medium provision, which was presented during July, and clarify if the plan requires additional funding?
Eluned Morgan AM: So, there is a report that was published in July, and we are waiting for the operational actions from that report to be published, probably within the next month. In terms of the implementation of that programme, some of that journey has already begun, so they're not waiting for the report to—. We're not waiting for the actions to be very clearly set out; actually, some of that work has been done. For example, already, there's been a review of the governance. We're also looking at the kind of research that needs to be done in that area. I think what's clear, and something that's very much driving me as the Welsh language Minister, is this understanding that you reach 16 and you get this fall off a cliff in terms of the number of people who actually speak and use Welsh. So, that's the thing that we need to address, and that's why moving now into that area of further education is crucial. And the report, written by Delyth Evans, did suggest that we do need to move into this area but, actually, there wasn't necessarily a need for further funding in that area. But it may be something that we will consider, but it's something that we'll try and absorb, perhaps, from within the department.
Kirsty Williams AM: A relatively modest amount of money was being made available this year to be able to kick-start some of this work, but we are mindful of the recommendations from the Evans report. So, future allocations will have to reflect the priorities within the implementation plan, and that's not just money that goes directly to y coleg, but also trying to get better alignment between other budget lines that support the Welsh language, and making sure that all budget lines that could help on this agenda are aligned to the recommendations and the implementation report.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, on this.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Just on coleg cenedlaethol's extended remit, have you had—? I haven't read the Evans report, but is there anything in there about the role of increased use of Welsh in adult community learning, for example? That's a further education pot, isn't it?
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes, it is, and we are very much in touch with adult community learning, and they are aware of the responsibilities they have in relation to the Welsh language. The issue, of course, with adult education, is that they have undergone some quite dramatic cuts.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, yes, I don't mean the higher education sector that's taken over responsibility for this; I'm talking about community learning, low level, just having Welsh there. And, you know, as you mentioned yourself, post 16, people stop using it, so getting it in wherever you can as part of a strategy.
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes. They're aware of that responsibility and we—
Suzy Davies AM: They're free to choose partners, then, are they, to help them deliver that?
Eluned Morgan AM: And also to work with the new organisation that we've set up to promote the learning of Welsh, in particular, that is based in Carmarthen. So, that's something also that's being driven, and they're working closely, I think, on this.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, great, thanks.
Kirsty Williams AM: There's lots of innovative practice. So, for instance, up in Wrexham, if a student has gone into the college to do A-levels, then they may decide to do those A-levels through the medium of English. But if they were previously in a Welsh-medium school, they are actively encouraged—indeed, persuaded—to do their Welsh baccalaureate through the medium of Welsh. So, they may be doing their A-levels in English, but if they've come from a Welsh-medium school, the college proactively seeks them out and makes sure that there is provision for them to do their Welsh bac qualification through the medium of Welsh, or, for instance, they are working very hard to form tutor groups. So, the tutor group—you might be doing your qualifications in English, but your tutor group will be a Welsh-medium tutor group, so that you are placed with other students who have come from Welsh-medium schools, and your tutor does all that tutor work through the medium of Welsh. So, there are other ways in which we can continue to help support children's linguistic ability, even if they have made a decision not to formally study their A-levels, for instance, or a course, through the medium of Welsh, and we're constantly looking at new ways. I think one particular aspect of the market—if we call it that word—that we're interested in are those students who've been to Welsh-medium schools, but at 16, perhaps, as I say, decide to go to a college. So, for instance, here in Cardiff, looking at childcare, and the opportunity—you know, there's a sector where we know we need a Welsh-medium workforce.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, definitely.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, again, it's trying to target those children, and track them from a previous Welsh-medium education into a college, capturing their language skills, and finding ways in which they can use them. Merthyr college—there's a Welsh-medium champion in Merthyr college actively looking for children who have come from a Welsh-medium background, and they are allocated roles as Welsh-medium champions within the college, to promote. So, there are lots of innovative ways, especially in the FE sector, that they're looking to keep children's linguistic skills relevant, and they're using them, even if they make that decision to switch the language of their tuition.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's encouraging to hear. My question was about community learning, where it's essentially older people who perhaps are coming back to education in a way that wasn't as formal as it was before, if I can put it like that—so we don't lose sight of them as well. I've still got an abiding worry that there's a cohort in the middle here of people who we might lose, and maybe pass on bad attitudes towards the Welsh language to their children, despite the fact that those children now have huge opportunities to absorb Welsh language skills and make the most of them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. The next questions are from Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair. I'd like to ask about the regional skills partnership—partnerships, I should say—because they are having a direct influence now on courses and provision in FE, and with degree apprenticeships in universities as well. You, I believe, received the Graystone review back in March, so could you tell us a bit about what was in it, and what the recommendations are?
Eluned Morgan AM: So, some of the recommendations—. So, we wanted to review it because it's still relatively new. They've only been up and running about two or three years. He brought out some positives—things that we, I think, are doing well. I think they found that the voluntary partnership approach was quite effective. He did suggest that, actually, what they need to be producing is much shorter, sharper, focused reports. There was a suggestion of a lack of transparency, in terms of reporting from those regional skills partnerships, and that's obviously something now that we've undertaken to review. And there, I think, is an understanding that what we need to do now is to put in place those changes. But, on the whole, what we've done is to reinforce our commitment to the regional skills partnerships, and in particular now, through allocating £10 million to further education colleges to respond directly to the wishes and the desires of the regional skills partnerships, you can see actually the status of the regional skills partnerships has just grown significantly. Because now there is an outcome as a result of their recommendations. So, you've seen quite a dramatic shift, I think, in the respect for regional skills partnerships over the past year.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, are there any recommendations in terms of governance as well—
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: —because, clearly, there may have been concerns about the way that people ended up being members of the partnerships? You touched on transparency—clearly, that's an issue as well. So, just particularly on governance—.
Eluned Morgan AM: So, on governance, I think there was an understanding that that needs to be looked at again, and that we need to get the right people around the table. And what is interesting is, I think, because it was a voluntary approach, because now people can see an outcome, we're getting different people now really showing an interest in being a part of the regional skills partnerships. So, governance is something again we're going to be addressing and following up the recommendations on in that Graystone review. Is there anything to add to that?
Huw Morris: Well, I was just going to say, I don't see why we couldn't share the review with you.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That was going to be my next question.
Huw Morris: That might be helpful. And we are actioning the recommendations from that review.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The normal course of action would be, of course, to have published it and then to publish a Government response. Any reason why that wasn't done? I find it quite strange that you're saying that you're actually actioning the report and you still haven't published it. As a committee, we've not been party to any of that, really.
Eluned Morgan AM: I don't see why that can't be done. There's nothing to hide here, so why wouldn't we? We're the people who commissioned the report—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: I'm the one asking the questions. [Laughter.] No, but you're right. I just find it strange. I just find it odd that that hasn't been published.
Eluned Morgan AM: Okay. Well, we'll certainly get a copy of that to you.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, okay.
Huw Morris: May I just say: we ask a number of people periodically to comment on what we do, and agencies we work with do the same. The status of those reports varies. I don't suppose we'd anticipated there would be the interest in this issue that there is and so, as the Minister said, there's no problem that I can see with that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And do you have a timeline in terms of by when you want to introduce some of the reforms that you're looking at now, because of this report?
Eluned Morgan AM: Some of them have already been introduced, so we're not waiting. The transparency issue that I think there was a bit of concern about—that's already been introduced. So, it's just about making sure that people understand what is going on in these regional skills partnerships. I think that's really important—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, quite, given the influence that they have now. Yes, sure. Just another short one on the regional skills partnerships, really: how effective are they in supporting the planning and delivery of Welsh-medium provision in post-16?
Eluned Morgan AM: I think there's more we can do in relation to that. But I think there are aspects where we're already changing in respect of specific sectors. So, if you think about the care sector, for example, what we do need is more people who have those skills to speak through the medium of Welsh in the care sector. And, coming back to the point that was made earlier, what we're doing now is looking at the curriculum: to what extent can we include—? You don't have to do your whole course through the medium of Welsh, but there are aspects that would be very useful. So, those kind of things are being taken on board now in terms of the courses. One of the things that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol are looking at is building the resources that will be needed in order to mainstream those into, in particular, those front-line service areas where we have a skills shortage.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Diolch.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, you know that this committee has taken a very keen interest in the emotional and mental health of our young people. In the summer, the English universities Minister made an announcement about the development of a new mental health charter. That followed some concerns about young people dying by suicide across the UK. Is Welsh Government expecting Welsh universities to sign up to that charter or are you planning to work on your own?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you for raising this. I think it's really important that whilst for many, many, many young people moving away from home and starting their degree course is an incredibly exciting time and something they look forward to hugely, it can bring significant stresses with it, especially for first-year students, who, as I said, are moving away, perhaps are suddenly responsible for finances in a way they've never been responsible for, for all the day-to-day living that perhaps they've relied on other people to assist them with. So, it can be quite a stressful time. So, it is right that we look at how we can support health and well-being for students, especially mental health and mental resilience. So, I very much welcome the work on the mental health charter, and HEFCW are engaged and keeping a very close eye on what's going on to see the opportunities for Welsh universities to participate in that. But this was on a recent agenda item that I had with HEFCW, and indeed with the vice-chancellors, when I met them last week, or the week before last. So, they are developing their own strategic approach to well-being and health for students, which will be underpinned by a co-created action plan with the universities themselves on supporting students with mental health problems in particular. So, the strategic approach and the action plan are being developed by HEFCW at the moment and HEFCW are also meeting with colleagues from England and Scotland to see the opportunities for a universal approach across the UK to supporting students. The universities, when I met with them recently, all shared a commitment to do better in this particular area. One, because it's the right thing to do, but, actually, stopping people from dropping out and not completing their courses obviously is of a financial benefit to the institution. So, it's actually the right thing to do for their students, they want to do it for that reason, but, actually, there is a strong financial underpinning to ensure that students complete their studies. So, it's looking at, again, each university looking at individual approaches of how better they can do that. But it's not just responding to students who become unwell, it's actually, 'What can we do to in the campus to maintain good mental health?' So, rather than just trying to fix a problem once it's occurred, it's 'What can we do?' And you'll be aware of individual institutions taking different approaches. It's not something that we dictate, but individual institutions—when they do exams, how work is assessed and marked and graded—are taking different steps to promote well-being, as well as then responding to situations where students become unwell. We do know that financial pressures can be a source of huge stress for students, so we are constantly working with the Student Loans Company to make sure that the services that they offer to people are as good as they can be, and that there are no unnecessary delays that, perhaps, put a student under pressure or give students worries about their financial situation. And I would argue our Diamond reforms, which allow students access to a living wage—for some students, completely by a grant, for some students, a combination of grant and loan, with no expectation at all that your parents will contribute, which is not the case in other places where there is an expectation of parental contribution—that actually, hopefully, addresses some of those financial worries that some students may have. But I am aware that if people are waiting for their grant or people are waiting for their payments, that can be a source of stress. So, ensuring that we have good performance by the Student Loans Company is crucial.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And I'm sure the committee's very interested to hear the update on that. Are you able to give us any indication of timescale by which you'd expect HEFCW and the individual universities to actually have this work in place?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not sure, but I will write to the committee and let you know. In fact, we can probably provide, from Universities Wales and from the work that's going on centrally, a list of proposals that are being undertaken.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. The next question is from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. I wanted to ask you about the pay dispute, and I know that you're not the employer, because I know that's going to be the first answer—
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right, that is the first answer. [Laughter.] Well anticipated.
Dawn Bowden AM: But we are in a stalemate here and you clearly have an interest in making sure that this dispute is resolved quickly in the interest of the students and the reputation of the colleges et cetera, et cetera. I can see how this dispute has arisen. When we've seen the teachers' pay settlement, we've seen FE settlements in England and Scotland higher than what's on the table here. And I am concerned, and I do think this is where the Welsh Government does have a role, because I am concerned that the employers seem to be using the funding issue as the reason not to have a reasonable settlement with staff. So, they've walked away from the table, they've said, 'One per cent, take it or leave it. Unless Welsh Government gives us any more money, that's the end of that.' And I'm really concerned about that, because this is potentially going to have a major impact on whether we can recruit and retain staff in FE colleges. And I look at the college in my constituency, Merthyr college—it's a tertiary college, they're providing A-level education across Merthyr and they're astounding results they've been getting as well. I'm coming round to the question in a moment. It's really: what more do you think you can do as a Government to try to get these parties back round the table and not allow the dispute to become a political football?
Eluned Morgan AM: Thanks very much for that. I think, first of all, you're absolutely right—this is about ColegauCymru's negotiation, but we are keeping a close eye on the situation. I think it's probably worth emphasising that the reason this has come about, or part of the reason, is because you've seen that pay settlement in relation to teachers' pay and we've had the consequential. So, sixth-form teachers are happy. The people actually providing the same teaching course in a different institution, you can understand why they may say, 'Something needs to change here.' The problem here is that it's about that, actually, that falls to the Welsh Government. We don't have that. Or at least it falls to FE colleges to fund that, and it's up to them to come up with that proposal. We are keeping a close eye on things. I think it's fair to say that we'll wait until they get further along down the line, but we are extremely aware of the sensitivities of the situation.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you for that, Minister. When you say you're keeping a close eye on it, have you actually had conversations with ColegauCymru? Because I note what you just said there: 'We'll keep an eye on it and wait and see what's happening.' Well, all the unions are currently consulting. One has already balloted for industrial action. We could have the other unions also balloting for industrial action. I mean, this isn't something we want in the FE sector, clearly, so is there anything more proactive that Government could actually be doing to try to bring a resolution to this dispute?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, we are listening and speaking to ColegauCymru, and also we're aware of what the unions are saying as well. So, I think that's probably as far as we can go at this point. When they come to a conclusion, and when they come to us and say, 'Look, this is the consequence and this will finish'—at this point, we have no idea where that settlement is likely to fall.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, thank you. Yes, we wouldn't expect you to make an announcement on this, because it's happening outside of Government, but there is a principle here, isn't there, in terms of pay equality between schoolteachers and FE? So, would you not wish to see a situation where we do have greater equality in that respect?
Eluned Morgan AM: In relation to teaching, I think it's fair to say that we would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching, yes.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay, thank you. You emphasise 'in relation to teaching'—my next question is that, of course, within FE establishments you have teaching staff and non-teaching staff, and if there was to be some sort of increase, then would you not expect all staff to have that?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, let's see—that's up to ColegauCymru to negotiate and to discuss, so let's see what the outcomes are.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because some of the non-teaching staff are the lowest paid, as well, aren't they? So, you know—.
Eluned Morgan AM: Let's wait for the outcome of the negotiations. I think we are very aware of the situation. ColegauCymru are in that negotiation. We're aware of what the requests are from the trade union members, and we'll wait to see what they come up with before responding formally.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Could I just briefly as well ask about pensions, because that's coming down the line, potentially, isn't it, and the impact that's going to have on FE? One college was saying it will cost them £1 million if it happens next year. Are you thinking about any steps that you could take to support them, potentially, because obviously this is coming down the line, really, isn't it?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I think, already, we've got the situation in relation to teachers, and again what we've seen is the consequential and the UK Government honouring that. Again, what we don't have, necessarily, is that money coming down from the UK Government for us to be able to support it in the way that we might like to. It's early days on this, but it's something, again, we're keeping an eye on.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The fundamental question, really, is: if the money doesn't come down the line from Westminster, are you in a position to underwrite that?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, we'll wait until we see that situation arising, but we're aware that that is an issue that we're going to have to deal with in future.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Diolch.
Lynne Neagle AM: In relation to the pay dispute, it's the committee's understanding that ColegauCymru's position is that, in order to meet a pay award that is commensurate with schoolteachers, an additional 3.5 per cent or £10.1 million is needed. Are you aware of that being their position?
Eluned Morgan AM: We are aware of their position, yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The final question is from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: You will have had, Cabinet Secretary, a letter from Professor Colin Riordan on 26 September regarding essay mills, in which he refers to the other letter that was sent by him and 39 vice-chancellors regarding essay mills and the fact that it's legalised cheating. In the letter—it was actually to me—that was copied to you, he says: 'We have requested the UK Government commission the QAA to publish a draft Bill by or before the beginning of the next parliamentary session. We've also requested the Department for Education give support to the establishment of a UK centre for academic integrity, which would research, analyse and combat academic misconduct. Any support that the Welsh Government can provide in this regard will also be appreciated, so I'm copying this letter to the Cabinet Secretary for Education.' Can you just give me your opinions on that, please?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think 'legalised cheating' is a polite way of describing what goes on. My officials have been in touch with their counterparts in the UK Government to see if we can co-ordinate a UK approach, which I think is necessary. I don't think there's any merit in us trying to do this on our own; it would be pointless. I hope that we can agree a formal approach as quickly as possible, and I will take every opportunity—. We're trying to establish a meeting with the UK Minister for HE before Christmas, and I will take every opportunity that I can to ensure that we can take some very, very strong action in this regard. But it does have to be done at a UK level. I want people who attend our universities and who work hard to achieve the grades that they get not to be disadvantaged by people who look to find an easy way out and are not willing to put—. I think it undermines the individual effort of individual students who are doing the right things, as well as the integrity of our system. I'm proud of the quality of the system that we have in the Welsh HE sector, and I want that maintained. I hope that we can agree a UK approach to ending this practice.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And in addition to the specifics regarding the quality assurance agency and the proposed centre for academic integrity, let's be clear: what we're talking about it outlawing those websites that offer to write essays for cash.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And quite often, very bad ones as well. [Laughter.] My understanding is—
Hefin David AM: Well, they get through the system and they guarantee—. The websites, and I've experienced this, and I mentioned it in First Minister's questions—
Kirsty Williams AM: You did.
Hefin David AM: The websites say to you, 'Unless you tell anyone, you won't get caught', and students are believing that. The new student grant system—some of that money will go to these websites.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, and, unlike you, I have no experience of this myself—
Hefin David AM: Well, I have experience of it. I've not done it, but I've experienced it. [Laughter.]
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm so old, Hefin, that such internet sites didn't exist when I was a student. [Laughter.] But, you know, I'm sure you listened to it too: a recent article, on a radio station, where, actually, it was an experiment just like you did—a student deliberately went through this process to expose, but, actually, what they got in return wasn't even very good. It was a particularly poor essay on the portrayal of women in Victorian literature, so they weren't even getting very good value for their money. [Laughter.] But, clearly, this is a terrible and abhorrent practice in our system, and, as I said, I will do everything that I can to work with colleagues across the United Kingdom to find a solution to this. If I thought it would help if we did it on our own, we could do that, but it won't help if we act unilaterally. It has to be a UK approach.
Hefin David AM: And just—final question—with regard to the representations you've made, do you feel that the UK Government is open to this course of action?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, officials are the ones who have had those direct, face-to-face conversations, rather than me. I hope to do that when I meet the Minister, hopefully before Christmas. Huw, would you like to comment?
Huw Morris: We haven't had anything formally, but I understand from what I've heard in England that there is an interest to do something. Whether that will take the form of a Bill in the timescale you've outlined, I'm not sure, but as the Minister said, we'll be exploring that with officials through the ministerial meetings.
Hefin David AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering all our questions? As usual, you'll have a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time. Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education regarding eligibility criteria for free school meals. I'd like to return briefly to that when we go into private. Paper to note 2: a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 3: also from that Minister, which is his response to the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee on the Bill. And paper to note 4: also a letter from that Minister to the Finance Committee on the Bill. And the final paper to note is from Mind Cymru regarding the task and finish group on a whole-school approach to mental health, and I will update Members on that when we go into private. Happy to note those? Item 4, then: can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.
Query:
What did Kirsty Williams say about the trend of teacher recruiting, the reasons for it, and the steps they had taken?
Answer:
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Even though there was no specific figure that could be provided, they had only been recruiting about 65 percent of targets.Therefore, there was a lot of work they have to do about this. First, they were making sure that their ITE provision was world class, and recently they were through an accreditation process for a new ITE provision that would start in the next academic year. Second, they had looked at financial incentives.Third, they were embarking on their first national ITE recruitment marketing exercise. Kirsty Williams mentioned that this was not a unique issue in Wales, but a common issue across the globe. Money was not the only reason that prevented people from getting onto these courses. What's more, from next year, they would be going to have their unique part-time PGCE route into qualification, which allowed people to bring their outside world experience into teaching, and this could increase the diversity in their teaching workforce.
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies, although Dawn Bowden is running late. I'll take this opportunity to welcome Dawn formally to the committee but also to place on record our thanks to John Griffiths for his service to the committee. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is a scrutiny session with a focus on higher and further education. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Cabinet Secretary for Education, Eluned Morgan, Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning, and Huw Morris, who is the group director of skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Thank you all for your attendance this morning. If you're okay with it, we'll go straight into questions. The first questions are from Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If we can just start with teacher training and teacher training for secondary school teachers in particular, obviously there's been what looks like a trend in recent years in filling the places for secondary school training. Obviously, this is at Welsh teacher training centres. Do you think there's still a problem recruiting teachers into the 300 priority places, or is there a trend where things are getting better?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. I think, for this year's intake, although we're in touch with our providers, we're not in a position to be able to give figures for this year's intake for a couple of months. But what we have seen over recent years is that we are only recruiting to about 65 per cent of those targets. So, there is still a job of work to do to understand and to respond to those needs. So, what we're doing is first of all making sure that our ITE provision is world class, so that, actually, Welsh centres are the place to go to train to be a teacher. You'll be aware that we've recently been through an accreditation process for new ITE provision that will start in the next academic year. We have looked at financial incentives. It's not the whole answer, I think, to these issues, but it's part of a mixture of things that we need to do. You'll be aware that, for priority subjects, with graduates with the very highest levels of qualifications, those financial incentives are now £20,000 a year. We're also embarking on our first ever national ITE recruitment marketing exercise. We have initially done some work in the last year specifically targeting Welsh students in studying for priority subject degrees, e-mailing them, sending them materials to ask them to consider (1) becoming a teacher, and (2) crucially coming to do that training here in Wales. We are now part of a full national programme of ITE recruitment, giving people that idea that you can serve your nation and your community by training to be a teacher. So, there's a whole package of things we need to do. In January of this year I set up an advisory board on the recruitment and retention of teaching staff, and we are awaiting some reports from that advisory group on what they feel that we should do next.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. I can see there's a lot of activity, but what exactly is it responding to? Presumably, some research has been done about why people don't want to become teachers so that the answers you come up with are appropriate answers. I can't believe it's just about ITE, although this is very valuable, what you're talking about. Is there something that's running through our younger learners at the moment that makes them think that teaching isn't a profession they want to go into? Is that something that's happening just in Wales or is it happening elsewhere as well?
Kirsty Williams AM: No. I think what you will find is that this isn't a uniquely Welsh issue. I think they are suffering quite acute problems across the border, which proves to me that money isn't necessarily the entire answer, because, despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses, they're not able to do that in England either. So, that proves to me—what the research does show—that it's not money alone that will get people onto these courses. Interestingly, I don't even think it's a UK problem. Recently, as you'll be aware via my written statement, I attended the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory, which is a system-to-system conference. If you talk to education systems in different parts of the world, the one common factor that we are all grappling with is teacher recruitment and retention. In the USA, they have seen a 40 per cent drop in the number of students training to be teachers. So, in the Californian system, significant teacher shortages, and in Oregon, Washington. I met with New York state—significant teacher recruitment and retention problems in New York state, and in Finland, Australia. So, this is a common issue across the globe, really. That's why we set up the advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor John Gardner—it's to understand what the issues are exactly that are preventing people or putting people off. One of the things that we have got strong performance in, and I think this is perhaps something that we're trying to follow up on, are employment-based routes into qualified teacher status—so, those are people who are training on the job. Those remain strong. There's high demand for those places, so much so that we've increased those places to 90 last year and 90 again this year, which says to me that—there's definitely a place for the traditional, 'Take a year off, do a postgraduate certificate in education in a university for a year'—actually, that type of course suits some students but it might be preventing other people from pursuing a qualification in teaching, which is why, of course, from next year, we will have our unique part-time PGCE route into qualification. So, that allows people to perhaps combine some of their employment opportunities, so they can earn while they learn, or maybe they've got caring responsibilities that prevent them from going to do a full-time course. I think that will give us an alternative route that people can take to gain qualified teacher status and work in our schools. So, there's no one thing, I think, that we can do that will solve this issue. But it is an international issue, I agree with that.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's what I was after finding out, and, actually, what you've just said about the part-time PGCE is pretty interesting as well, because if you can bring your outside world experience into teaching, that's got to help, hasn't it?
Kirsty Williams AM: Can I just agree with you? I think that is really, really important—that we have a diversity in our teaching workforce. I think the different dynamic that brings to a school and the experience that brings to children is really, really valuable. I was up in the Deeside Sixth just last week, talking to the A-level chemistry teacher. She had been a teacher for a while, she'd gone into industry, worked in industry, and now had come back into teaching. She said that she felt that that made her a better educator and she could talk with knowledge and experience about the opportunities outside of teaching that the students in front of her could pursue. I'm very keen to increase the diversity in our teaching workforce and I'm very keen in looking at career changers, who perhaps have different life experience and work experience, coming into our teaching profession.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Part of that diversity, of course—it would be great if you had more people interested in qualifying to teach through the medium of Welsh. Great aspirations; the trend's going the other way. No-one can solve this in 280 characters, I get that, but can you give us some indication about why you think this is proving still such an unattractive option when it's clear that there's a policy for this country to improve the number of Welsh speakers? You'd have thought there'd be a pretty good carrot for this.
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. Again, data for recruitment for the 2018-19 cohort is not yet available and we are, as I said, keeping in touch with our ITE centres to keep a close eye on them. I think an important thing to recognise is that there is a difference between the number of people who are on courses where there is a specific designation that enables them to teach through the medium of Welsh and those people who have linguistic ability and Welsh ability but don't necessarily do a course that allows them. So, there is a difference. We do think that, for the 2016-17 cohort, there were an additional 130 qualifiers that, actually, were fluent in Welsh and who could have gone on to teach in Welsh-medium schools, didn't necessarily do a course that gave them that designation. But, clearly, we've got three academic years now to get to the targets that we've set ourselves. The evaluation of Welsh-medium provision in ITE reported at the end of last month, and the Minister and officials are busy working now to implement the recommendations of the report that was published, I think, on 28 September, to be able to move this agenda forward. Again, we've got new incentives, this year, both for people starting their course and then for teachers who complete their QTS after a year. So, we've added in new financial incentives this year to try and address some of those issues. But, clearly, these are ambitious targets and we will need to have a step change over the next three years if we're to meet them.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you for that answer. We're now talking about cohorts of students coming into PGCE and teaching degrees. If they're from Wales, they will have had Welsh as part of their education from day one, and we'll accept there are varying qualities in different parts of Wales, different attitudes towards it as well. But there isn't a single a person now who's been through Welsh education who can say they have no Welsh at all, unless they've moved into the system from, say, England very, very recently. What is being done within the teaching qualifications, including the degrees, to ensure that, at least in Welsh universities, those nascent Welsh language skills are at least kept alive, even though we're not talking necessarily about being at a level where people can teach through the medium? It's the age-old question: once the school gate closes, is that the end of their Welsh use? So, is there something—it won't be Donaldson, but in the teacher training qualifications—that is keeping this going and, hopefully, increasing the usability of the Welsh skills they have?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, in terms of how we can encourage children who have got Welsh skills as a result of their education up to 16, how they can continue to use those skills and, potentially, use them in the workplace, I'm sure Eluned will want to talk about some of the work, for instance, in other, non-teaching sectors. But, with regard to ITE, you'll be aware that, in the evaluation report, as I said, that was published, the report comes forward with two options in how we could develop an intervention programme to support Welsh language skills amongst all primary and secondary ITE entrants. So, what we'll be doing now as a result of that report is that we'll be working very closely with our ITE centres to develop and agree upon minimum provision that constitutes those skill levels within ITE provision for all teachers.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: You have your targets for 2021, in terms of numbers of teachers coming through the system, which is positive, although, clearly, the report or the review itself said that, actually, we need to double the numbers, really. But it's not just the trends that are going down; it's a cataclysmic drop, really. We've lost 24 per cent in the number of people over the last four or five years who are going into teacher training to study subjects that they could teach through the medium of Welsh. So, it's a huge turnaround that we're looking for, and I'm not getting the feeling that the level of ambition and the answers that you're giving here this morning reflect the level of action that's needed, really.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, as I tried to illustrate to Suzy, the figures on their own tell one story, but there are additional people in the system with an ability to speak Welsh and to be able to use—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: I think it's 40 per cent of those who are currently in the system who don't—
Kirsty Williams AM: —the language and skills. And if we look at qualifiers of ITE courses in Wales by degree type, actually, we see a different trend—we see numbers going up. So, there are statistics and there are statistics. Depending on which ones you look at, it's quite a complex picture. And that's why we had the evaluation report. We understand and we know and acknowledge that there is more work to be done. That's why we have got the evaluation of provision in ITE and that's why we'll be taking that ambition forward. We know what we need to do. As I said, we're not sitting back and hoping that something miraculous will change things. We are pulling levers and putting in place plans to improve that situation.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you for that. Clearly, there are statistics and there are statistics, so could you just explain to us which statistics you've used for your targets for growth over the next three years?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that comes as a result of the work done for the 2050—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Upon which baseline are you basing the increases that you're projecting?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using the baseline of 2012-13. There has been a decline since then.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's the one I was using when I said '24 per cent reduction'.
Kirsty Williams AM: There has been a decline in those numbers. That's why, as I said, we're doing the work that we need to do to reverse that decline. In using those numbers, we also know that there are additional people in the system who are not captured in those figures and who do have the linguistic ability to use their language positively in school settings. So, what I'm saying is that that doesn't tell us the whole story, but I will be the first to admit that there is a significant job of work with our ITE providers to ensure that we will have the skilled professionals that we need to deliver on our ambitions, and I'm not hiding from that.
Eluned Morgan AM: Also, I just think it's worth saying that a lot of this is about building the confidence of those people who actually can speak Welsh, who are not teaching through the medium of Welsh, and to give them that support. First of all, we need to identify who these people are, so there is a job of work being undertaken now in terms of registration in particular—when people register, let's just make sure that we collect that kind of data.
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't even do that consistently at the moment. One of the recommendations of the report is that there is no consistent approach to understanding this baseline data and there's no consistent competency test that people start at the beginning of their course, so we need a national approach rather than leaving it to individual institutions.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Have we missed any tricks, potentially, in terms of the reforms to accrediting ITE, for example, in terms of, maybe, strengthening aspects around the Welsh language and provision in that respect?
Kirsty Williams AM: No, I don't believe so. The accreditation process, which is independent of the Government—the accreditation process demands of our ITE providers that their provision will be able to meet the goals of our curriculum. Our curriculum is very clear about the equality of the language and the ability of our children, through all stages of their education journey, to be able to be bilingual children.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, that requirement, as far you're concerned, is there.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, okay. Diolch—thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Before I turn to Hefin, can I just clarify—? In answer to Suzy Davies, you said that 65 per cent of the places in Welsh training centres had been filled. Is that 65 per cent of the priority places?
Kirsty Williams AM: Priority places.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much.
Kirsty Williams AM: Sixty-five per cent of the priority courses are being met.
Lynne Neagle AM: Lovely, thank you for clarifying that. Hefin.
Hefin David AM: The decision by the Education Workforce Council not to accredit the University of South Wales with the ability to deliver teacher training—what are your views and concerns about that?
Kirsty Williams AM: The process is independent of Government, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that, especially as I understand that there is an appeals process that may be being undertaken. What I would say is that from the very outset of our ITE reforms we have made it very clear that I expect very high standards in our ITE system, but the process is independent of this Government. I have confidence in the people who have been appointed by the EWC to undertake that process, but it is independent of me, and it's not appropriate for me to comment on that further.
Hefin David AM: I fully understand that and the need for distance for the EWC, but there'll be an impact on students and staff. Students, first of all: are you concerned that the reduction in providers might have an impact on students, and those students going through the second year at USW? Would you have concerns about that issue?
Kirsty Williams AM: In terms of the overall numbers, we will be looking to commission from those institutions that have been accredited the number of training places that our planning tool says that we need. So, in terms of an overall number of places, we will commission from those accredited units. Clearly, there will be a responsibility upon the University of South Wales to ensure that those students already in the system are able to complete their studies and their course, with the appropriate level of support and tuition to enable them to achieve their career aspirations and to graduate from that programme.
Hefin David AM: And what about the uncertainty for staff, or would you say that's an issue for the university itself?
Kirsty Williams AM: These are autonomous bodies. They have to act accordingly, in compliance with any employment law or any statutory responsibilities that they would have as an employer. That's not a matter for me; that is a matter for the institution that is an autonomous body.
Hefin David AM: But I would be surprised if you weren't keeping an eye on this, given that it has been a key provider. Are you aware of when the appeal decision will be known?
Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding is that the appeals process is ongoing, and next month, perhaps. But as I said, this is a process that is independent of Government—
Hefin David AM: But it will have an impact for what you do.
Kirsty Williams AM: It will potentially change the nature of the people from whom we commission places, but as I said, I do not have any concerns that we will not be in a position to commission the appropriate number of training places that we will need as a result of our planning.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy on this—mindful of what the Minister said about it being an independent decision.
Suzy Davies AM: It's not directly about USW; it's about the geographic spread of provision. I wonder if you could just give us a snapshot of what that looks like, and whether you think—certainly for PGCE or postgrad courses, anyway—that if they're not accessible geographically and we've got students who already have three years' worth of debt, they're not going to be looking to, necessarily, live away from home for a fourth year, and may want to study nearer home. Has there been any research done on the access to these postgrad courses, about where people are coming from and whether that's had an impact on the fact that some of these places haven't been filled?
Kirsty Williams AM: Currently, with our current providers, there is a significant geographical spread. There are centres here in the south-east, there are centres in the south-west, in mid Wales, and in north Wales. Obviously, accessibility is an issue for us. We do think that, for some students, accessibility is an issue, and of course that's why we are responding with our part-time PGCE route, which actually will be location neutral, because you will be able to study that as a distance learner, and so you will be able to remain in your community and undertake that course. So, that's part of the attractiveness, I believe, of offering that to people. So, if geographical disadvantage is stopping somebody from pursuing a career aspiration to qualify as a teacher, our new part-time PGCE, as I said, will allow them to do that.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thanks, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We're going to move on now to talk about reform and reconfiguration of the post-16 education sector. Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Good morning. There are some encouraging provisional signs regarding the demand for part-time undergraduate study for the first year of Diamond, but the £12.5 million reduction Higher Education Funding Council for Wales is having to make this academic year has potentially placed the funding for part-time provision under pressure. Is there a danger that, without maintaining and growing this funding, Welsh Government will undermine the Diamond reforms and increase the cost of part-time courses?
Kirsty Williams AM: Let's be absolutely clear what this Government has done for part-time students. We are unique, Janet: unique in the UK and, I believe, unique in Europe, in the parity of the support that is available for full-time and part-time students. So, Welsh part-timers have something that they do not get if they are in England or if they're in Scotland. It's too early to have definitive figures for the impact of Diamond on the number of people who are undertaking part-time study. I don't want to get into trouble by not having that verified data, and I know Members get testy with me for anecdotal evidence, but I can tell you this: there is one provider that is reporting at this moment a 40 per cent increase in the number of students that are registered to start part-time study with them this year, as compared to last year, and that reflects really, really well, compared to the onward downward trend that we see across the border for part-time. What this means, for us as a nation, is that people are able to take this opportunity to upskill themselves and to be able to develop their qualifications and to be able to move themselves up career ladders, and I think that's such an important economic factor for us. So, rather than feeling doom and gloom about the prospects for the part-time sector, the early indications, at least, show that the Diamond reforms are leading to an increase in demand and, more importantly, an increase in uptake—students taking advantage of that system to go away and study.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Is the Welsh Government able to reassure the committee that its ambitions for the post-compulsory education and training reforms are still in line with the original Hazelkorn recommendations, and go beyond the Labour manifesto commitment of simply replacing HEFCW with a new funding body for HE and FE?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. So, you will be aware, Janet, that the agreement between myself and the First Minister that brought me into the Government and the Government's programme state very clearly about our desire to pursue the recommendations of the Hazelkorn report. I hope, by the end of this week, we will have published the responses to the technical consultation, and we will continue to move forward. And I would argue, certainly, that the reforms that we are intending to implement do go beyond just simply a body that replaces HEFCW and joins in FE. It's a much wider remit to the potential new commission. And, as I said, I believe we've had in the region of about 450 responses to the technical consultation and I'm pleased to say that there remains a consensus—we will always have some arguments about the details—but there remains a consensus on the direction of travel that we are pursuing. A summary of the consultation responses will be available to Members and will be published by the end of the week.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Is the Welsh Government still committed to introducing the PCET Bill before the end of the fifth Assembly, and are you confident this will happen?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I'm absolutely determined that we will get the PCET legislation on the floor. It's a substantial piece of work, as you've just alluded to. This goes just beyond abolishing a single body. So, it is a substantial piece of work, but I believe that we are on track to be able to do that by the end of this term. But it's a big piece of work.
Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr, on this.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Can I just pick up on that? I mean, it is going to be a big job, and, clearly, there's a strong focus on creating the commission and putting the structures in place, but, of course, one of the drivers is that we want to effect a cultural change in the way that people perceive post-16 education. This thing about parity of esteem and all that kind of agenda. And a key part of this process, therefore, is the vision that people are waiting for. When are we going to see this coming forward? Because I think we're putting structures in place, so there's a big discussion about the technical stuff, but I feel there's a bit of a vacuum in terms of the vision.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would disagree with you, Llyr, because—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Right, okay. Well, maybe you should have come to the cross-party group on further education last night.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I would disagree with you because, of course, the technical consultation has followed what we had last year, which was a consultation on the vision, on what we needed to do to bring the sector together beyond just HE and FE, to the inclusion of sixth forms; work-based learning providers; apprenticeships; and bringing all of that together under one body. I believe that that gives us an opportunity to have better strategic planning; to help us prevent duplication; to help us bridge gaps that are not available for learners at the moment. It will, hopefully—. My vision is that it will promote collaboration between institutions rather than simply having the market-based process that we see in other places where there's competition rather than collaboration. I want to see it strengthen links between schools, FE and HE, strengthen links between schools and employers and business, to make sure that we've got better information and advice services so that young people know what their pathways are and can make really informed choices about what's best for them, to help them make them. So, I think: we've done the vision, we're now doing the technical consultation, that will be published by the end of the week, and we'll move forward with our overarching vision that Hazelkorn elaborated and that we are now taking forward.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you would be very concerned if FE institutions were saying that we really need to see the vision, that that's the next step, that we really need to understand the vision.
Kirsty Williams AM: But, I've met—. As I said, I was with one of our excellent FE leaders just at the end of last week; it wasn't raised with me then. I do understand that there are concerns from the FE sector about will the vision be realised. I think there's a shared understanding of the vision, but I understand and I do see some nervousness about, actually, in the end, will this just be HEFCW by another name, and, the opportunity for FE, will this be realised in this new body? We need to keep ensuring that, as we go forward and develop the policy, and as we develop, eventually, the legislation, that that parity of esteem and that true equality across all parts of the sector is realised.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much. Our next questions are from Michelle Brown.
Michelle Brown AM: Good morning, Cabinet Secretary; good morning, Minister. Your paper to the committee says that there's a need for more analysis and research into the outcomes for learners from different backgrounds. At the same time, Welsh universities have declared £104 million towards equality and opportunity activity for 2018. If you don't have the analysis, how can you be sure that the investment that's being made by the Welsh universities is actually going to have a positive outcome in the right places and lead to better outcomes for underrepresented groups?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, of course, that would be one of the duties of the new commission set up as a result of our post-compulsory education and training reforms that I would anticipate. The universities are required, under the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015, to produce fee and access statements, and the £104 million that they have to take off their fees to be able to promote this work—those fee and access plans have to be signed off by the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales as being robust and truly promoting equality of opportunity. They're also there to promote access and the opportunities for people to aspire to higher education. We are looking at—. It's quite early days, still, for that new regulatory regime to come through, so we ask HEFCW, when I meet with HEFCW, about the adequacy of those plans. Equity is an important part of my approach to higher education. That's why we're introducing the Diamond reforms—so that those from the poorest backgrounds can be adequately financially supported and are not put off from going to a university. And we're also looking—. I would envisage under PCET a better mechanism of tracking destinations for learners. So, for instance, in the FE sector, we're introducing new joint monitoring for outcomes for sixth-form learners and FE learners, because we've never tracked them in the same way. So, we're introducing that now so that we can see the destinations for those two sectors, but the PCET reforms give us an opportunity to do that right across the board. Huw, is there anything else I need to add?
Huw Morris: Well, I'd just reinforce the point the Cabinet Secretary made about the fee and access plans being the vehicle through which we get universities to specify what they're going to do, and the funding council tracks that. To make sure that we're doing that in a full and appropriate manner, periodically, we ask for that system to be reviewed. I think it was in 2017 that the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods—the research arm of Cardiff University—reviewed the system and looked at how widening access was being promoted by different institutions and whether that was working in all parts of Wales. The report from that group was considered by one of the sub-committees in HEFCW and they are revising the process as a consequence. So, I think we can be confident that there are ambitious targets that are monitored, and, periodically, the system as a whole is reviewed.
Michelle Brown AM: Can you tell us what sort of research and data the universities are basing those access plans on? I assume they'll all have slightly different methods—I appreciate that—but can you give us any idea of how they actually formulate these access plans?
Huw Morris: So, there are data collected across the UK by a body called the Higher Education Statistics Agency. They produce detailed breakdowns, along with UCAS, of where applicants come from, which institutions did they study at, what courses, what their particular characteristics are, including their socioeconomic status, and that data is then analysed at a UK level and in Wales, through HEFCW and its agents, to track what's happening at different institutions at different stages, not just in terms of who's applying and who gets access, but who progresses and what happens to people once they've graduated.
Michelle Brown AM: So, there is already data there. I'm just wondering how that data that's already there differs from the research and analysis that you were talking about in your paper. They must be different, then. What specific analysis and research were you referring to in your paper?
Kirsty Williams AM: We use the HESA—. It is HESA, isn't it?
Huw Morris: Yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: That's shorthand—the HESA data, and institutions use that. We also then use WISERD and other organisations to supplement that piece of work. I think there is a challenge to some of this going forward. So, the Office for Students in England now is having some discussions about access to HESA data. This is a source of real concern to me, that Welsh institutions may not be able to have the ready access to that data because of changes the OfS may be making. So, we supplement where we think that there's value to be added in additional breakdowns, or in additional slicing of data and understanding of what is motivating people to come forward.
Huw Morris: And to give you a specific example of that as it applies in north Wales—. So, take a university like Wrexham Glyndŵr University; they have quite a large intake of mature students. The data that's collected and analysed at a UK level tends to look at people who are going into university at a young age, not a mature profile. So, some of the analysis that we do in Wales—indeed, the deliberations of the sub-committee that I spoke about earlier—is about how do we make sure that those differences in Wales are reflected in the data and reflected in the targets that are set.
Michelle Brown AM: Okay.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The next questions are from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: Cabinet Secretary, are you in favour of more university mergers?
Kirsty Williams AM: I wouldn't use the word 'agnostic', but what I'm in favour of is a healthy, strong and sustainable HE sector. If individual institutions wish to collaborate or, indeed, go further to a formal merger then, obviously, that is a matter for them. We're not pursuing or urging a policy of mergers, but, if individual institutions feel that is of benefit to them and their students, obviously, we would have an interest in that and making sure that they were robust plans, but that's a matter for individual institutions.
Hefin David AM: But HEFCW are pushing it.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, what HEFCW are interested in is a sustainable HE sector that is strong but, as I said, I do not have a burning desire or a set policy to try and pursue mergers.
Hefin David AM: Okay. That's a little bit of a contrast with your predecessors, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that's a matter for them.
Hefin David AM: Okay. The reason I say it is because I was kind of on the inside when Cardiff Metropolitan University was under pressure from the then Minister to merge with the University of Glamorgan and Newport. It was a very difficult time for staff and, indeed, for students. You had the University and College Union and the Minister pushing it; the vice-chancellor of Cardiff Met at the time very much against it. So, do you think that it's really—? You're agnostic, but do you think perhaps it's not worth the disruption that can occur to staff and students?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, Hefin, I have no formal policy for reconfiguration or mergers. That's not to say I don't believe in collaboration between institutions. Going back to the issue of ITE, a very interesting programme came forward from Cardiff Met and Cardiff University for their ITE provision. So, I'm all for universities and institutions working together, but there's no formal policy. These are autonomous institutions. If they see that there is an advantage—I would hope for the student first, and, if we put the student at the front of this process, then we would obviously have an interest in that and making sure that that was the right thing to do. But, certainly, there is no pressure from us as a Government to pursue an agenda of mergers.
Hefin David AM: Just to be clear, then, that's likely to be a policy for the foreseeable future as well; you're not going to change that view.
Kirsty Williams AM: I have no intentions at this stage, but 'Events, dear boy'. [Laughter.] You know, sometimes there may be a situation that I cannot foresee at this moment that would necessitate, for the benefit of students, the benefit of Wales, a merger. So, never say never, but, at this point in time, I do not foresee us changing that policy.
Lynne Neagle AM: Julie on this.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, just looking back at that time, which I remember very vividly—
Hefin David AM: So do I.
Julie Morgan AM: I had many meetings with Cardiff Met. Do you feel there has been any disadvantage to Cardiff Met because that merger didn't go ahead?
Kirsty Williams AM: I, personally, am not aware of any disadvantage to Cardiff Met, but I would recognise—I would absolutely recognise—for staff and students caught up in those deliberations and those issues, then that would have had a personal impact on them. In terms of the institution going forward, I'm not aware that they are currently struggling with any disadvantage from that discussion. And, as I said, I'm really heartened by some of the really interesting collaborative work that Cardiff Met are interested in doing, and new partnerships and new collaborations between institutions, whether that be Cardiff Uni or local colleges, and I think that's to be welcomed.
Julie Morgan AM: So, following on from what Hefin said, was it worth all the fuss?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, look, as it's turned out, we have a strong institution in Cardiff Met, and I think, rather than looking at the past, we need to look at the future. But, of course, there was some reconfiguration and we need to understand any lessons that arose out of reconfiguration, and HEFCW are currently doing some work, actually, to look at reconfiguration, the experience of reconfiguration that did happen, and were benefits realised and what are the lessons that can be learned from that process. So, they are doing a piece of work to reflect, and that will, perhaps, help inform us as we go forward.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, Hefin.
Hefin David AM: I'd just say—Julie Morgan was one of our heroes at the time, I've got to say.
Eluned Morgan AM: She always is.
Hefin David AM: And still is. If I turn that on its head and have a look at University of South Wales, one of the concerns I'm getting from former colleagues and staff is that the Newport aspect—because it was a merger between Newport and the University of Glamorgan—has been somewhat denuded by the merger, and the amount of activity in the new Newport campus and elsewhere in Newport has been reduced by the merger. Are you aware of those concerns that staff may have?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, it's not for me to second-guess the judgment of previous Ministers who pursued—
Hefin David AM: But it's happening now, I mean.
Kirsty Williams AM: —a particular policy agenda. With regard to Newport, we are aware of concerns. Obviously, one campus closed completely, and there are concerns about the level of activity at the new campus. And we continue to discuss with the University of South Wales and the local FE college what offer is available to the local population, but also the wider contribution that that institution can make to the rest of Wales, and we continue to have conversations with both the college and the university about utilisation of the facilities in Newport and opportunities that could be made available in Newport.
Hefin David AM: That's interesting, because that's the first time I've heard it confirmed from the Government that those concerns that have been raised by former staff and colleagues in Newport are actually echoed by yourself, then.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, we're aware of them. We take our time to listen to people. When people raise issues with us, we take them seriously. Clearly, going back to the point that I believe Suzy made about geographical coverage, we want to make sure that FE and HE opportunities are available for people throughout Wales, and we continue to work with providers in that area to explore what can be done to enhance the opportunities.
Hefin David AM: And, from a financial point of view, they had £25 million for the merger. Are you satisfied that's value for money, and, at this point in the 10-year plan, that things are going as they should, with incomes being squeezed across the sector?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I mean, it's difficult, isn't it, to second-guess what would have happened, what might have happened, if the merger hadn't gone ahead, around the financial stability and sustainability of an institution. How do you prove that, if that hadn't happened, something worse or something better might have happened? It's difficult to do that and to second-guess those judgments, but, as I've said, what I am interested in—. And I can't change that decision that was made by a previous Minister—it wasn't my decision—but what I can do is to ensure that any lessons learnt, any evaluation of that particular set of circumstances, can be looked at and can help inform future policy, which is why HEFCW is doing the piece of work. When that's published, you and I will be in a better position to understand whether the aspirations of that particular merger were realised, not realised, and if we were in that situation again, could we do it better next time?
Hefin David AM: Okay, so you'll reflect on that later. At this point in time, you don't have any concerns about the long-term sustainability of the University of South Wales.
Kirsty Williams AM: No, not at this point.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. The Welsh Government's draft outline budget for 2019 states that it will continue to provide £20 million to further and higher education in 2019-20. Can you outline how this will be allocated between HE and FE and if conditions will be attached to the funding?
Kirsty Williams AM: Janet, you will have to wait until the end of the month, when the detailed, main expenditure group by main expenditure group lines of the budget are published, otherwise I will be stealing the finance Minister's thunder. There is a process by which the Welsh Government's budget is dealt with, and those details will emerge later on this month.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Kirsty Williams AM: But can I just say on conditions—? You will be aware that there are conditions attached to Government spend, both in the FE sector and in the HE sector. Those budgets will be subject to those existing arrangements; so, for instance, in the HE sector, the remit letter to HEFCW.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Can I just pick up on funding, generally? Sorry. Because, we did talk about HEFCW and part-time funding earlier, and I'm not sure that we addressed the issue of this £12.5 million cut in a specific budget line from HEFCW, because what they've done, if I understand correctly, is that they've put four priorities into one budget line, which includes part-time teaching, and cut that budget line by £12.5 million. Are you not concerned that that'll have an impact on part-time teaching, given that it's such a success story that you're proud of?
Kirsty Williams AM: HEFCW have to take cognisance of the remit letter, but then, ultimately, they are free to allocate resources as they see fit. What will drive part-time provision is the students taking it up, and universities responding to that desire and that need within their institutions. So, at this moment, I don't have any concerns.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We're going to move on now to look at the parity of esteem between academic and vocational post-16 education. The first question is from Michelle.
Michelle Brown AM: Thank you, Chair. Welsh Government wants to achieve parity of esteem between academic and vocational education, and I think that's a very laudable aim. Higher apprenticeships are a key part of this, but Estyn's recent inspection found that only four providers from 17 were achieving good outcomes for learners. What action do you propose to take about this, to make sure that those learners have much better outcomes across the board?
Eluned Morgan AM: First of all, just to make it clear that that is very much our intention. I think we have got work to do to make sure that we do reach that parity of esteem, but let's be clear that, in relation to these higher level apprenticeships, we were concerned that, actually, we weren't doing as well, perhaps, as we should be, which is why we commissioned Estyn to look at this specifically, and what it was that we were doing well, and what we needed to improve on. One of the things that we found is that we are doing very well in relation to foundation courses in terms of attainment—we've got 83 per cent attainment levels—but if you look at that at higher level apprenticeships, then we've got 77 per cent, so what is going wrong there? But, also, it's worth underlining the fact that, actually, we're still miles ahead of England, who are only reaching levels of about 61 per cent. So, we're already doing much better than England, but we're ambitious, and we want to make sure that if we are serious about this parity of esteem, how do we get there if we're not offering the kind of quality that we'd like to see in those higher level apprenticeships? So, some of the recommendations in that report, we'll be taking up. We want to increase the number of new employers and mentors within the system. I think we're also very keen to make sure that people don't repeat learning that they've already done. That's a danger and it takes up too much time. So, there are lots of these recommendations that now we'll set in motion, and I think the important thing for us then is to understand that, in relation to who's doing well and who's not doing well in the FE sector, the bulk of where that finance goes is actually doing quite well. It's pushing some of the private sector providers where we need to actually make sure that the quality is where we want it to be, and is, very importantly, matching the needs of employers. So, we've constantly got to be looking at the courses: are they responding to the needs of the market and what employers are looking for? And that means revising the offer sometimes in terms of the courses.
Michelle Brown AM: Where are the difficulties arising—? You refer to difficulties arising with the private providers. What are those difficulties?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, some of it is about, perhaps, not giving the kind of guidance that we'd like them to give in-house. So, they're perhaps not doing the kind of on-the-job work that we'd like them to do. So, I think it's making sure that, when they're in the workplace, they are still being pushed to attain those levels. But I think it's clear that what we need to do is to also listen to what the advisory board that we've set up in relation to apprenticeships is also asking us, and we've got the Confederation of British Industry advising us on that as well.
Michelle Brown AM: Do you have a service level agreement with the private providers?
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes. I mean, the whole thing is under a tender procedure, obviously, and we will be revising that soon. There'll be a new apprenticeship procurement process that we'll be undergoing and starting to look at that process next year. So, there's an opportunity there for us to drive change in the system.
Michelle Brown AM: Would you be willing to share the targets under the SLA with the committee?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I think the—. I can't see that there'd be a problem with that, so I'm sure we could do that, but I think the way to make people move, quite often, is through making sure that you put the finances where they need to be, and then they're likely to shift. And, so, I think, in responding to this Estyn report, we can then build that into the next framework.
Michelle Brown AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Julie.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, thank you. Right, I wanted to ask about the investment. If we're going to get parity of esteem, we've got to, probably, get more investment in. Could you say why there isn't more investment in degree, and there doesn't seem to be any investment in Master's-level apprenticeships at universities?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I think we've got to be careful that what happens is that the state doesn't pick up what, currently, people are prepared to pay for themselves, and, so, we've got to just make sure that that balance is right. So, what's happened in England, for example, is lots of people who were previously sitting Master of business administration courses, for example, are now switching into apprenticeship programmes. So, the system—it means that, previously, they were prepared to pay and now the state is paying or the employer's playing it in a slightly different way. So, I think we've got to just be aware about how—making sure that we don't get employers passing that responsibility that, actually, they have to upskill and to uptrain their workers and pass it back on to the state, whereas, actually, they need to step up as well as employers.
Julie Morgan AM: So, how are you going to judge that? How are you going to tell when, maybe, you should start putting some money in?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, what we are doing is we're putting money into areas where we know there are skills shortages. So, we're focusing where we want those apprenticeships—and particularly at the higher level—to be. So, for example, we're looking at ICT; we're looking at construction. There are areas where we definitely need to be focusing our attention. So, that's where we'll be prioritising our funding, and that's what we're doing already.
Kirsty Williams AM: And that's for degree-level apprenticeships, not Master's. Just degree-level apprenticeships.
Julie Morgan AM: Right, thank you. And then, in terms of getting data, could you clarify the progress on developing outcome and destination data for higher apprenticeships? Your plan seems to suggest that data won't be available until 2020-21, at the end of the programme.
Eluned Morgan AM: And that's because we're only just starting on this, and it takes a long time for people to complete an apprenticeship. So, we won't have anybody going from the higher level apprenticeship into a destination until around 2021, so there's no point in measuring that until that point.
Julie Morgan AM: Right. And then, can you tell us when you'll publish Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol's new operational plan to develop post-16 Welsh-medium provision, which was presented during July, and clarify if the plan requires additional funding?
Eluned Morgan AM: So, there is a report that was published in July, and we are waiting for the operational actions from that report to be published, probably within the next month. In terms of the implementation of that programme, some of that journey has already begun, so they're not waiting for the report to—. We're not waiting for the actions to be very clearly set out; actually, some of that work has been done. For example, already, there's been a review of the governance. We're also looking at the kind of research that needs to be done in that area. I think what's clear, and something that's very much driving me as the Welsh language Minister, is this understanding that you reach 16 and you get this fall off a cliff in terms of the number of people who actually speak and use Welsh. So, that's the thing that we need to address, and that's why moving now into that area of further education is crucial. And the report, written by Delyth Evans, did suggest that we do need to move into this area but, actually, there wasn't necessarily a need for further funding in that area. But it may be something that we will consider, but it's something that we'll try and absorb, perhaps, from within the department.
Kirsty Williams AM: A relatively modest amount of money was being made available this year to be able to kick-start some of this work, but we are mindful of the recommendations from the Evans report. So, future allocations will have to reflect the priorities within the implementation plan, and that's not just money that goes directly to y coleg, but also trying to get better alignment between other budget lines that support the Welsh language, and making sure that all budget lines that could help on this agenda are aligned to the recommendations and the implementation report.
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, on this.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Just on coleg cenedlaethol's extended remit, have you had—? I haven't read the Evans report, but is there anything in there about the role of increased use of Welsh in adult community learning, for example? That's a further education pot, isn't it?
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes, it is, and we are very much in touch with adult community learning, and they are aware of the responsibilities they have in relation to the Welsh language. The issue, of course, with adult education, is that they have undergone some quite dramatic cuts.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, yes, I don't mean the higher education sector that's taken over responsibility for this; I'm talking about community learning, low level, just having Welsh there. And, you know, as you mentioned yourself, post 16, people stop using it, so getting it in wherever you can as part of a strategy.
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes. They're aware of that responsibility and we—
Suzy Davies AM: They're free to choose partners, then, are they, to help them deliver that?
Eluned Morgan AM: And also to work with the new organisation that we've set up to promote the learning of Welsh, in particular, that is based in Carmarthen. So, that's something also that's being driven, and they're working closely, I think, on this.
Suzy Davies AM: Oh, great, thanks.
Kirsty Williams AM: There's lots of innovative practice. So, for instance, up in Wrexham, if a student has gone into the college to do A-levels, then they may decide to do those A-levels through the medium of English. But if they were previously in a Welsh-medium school, they are actively encouraged—indeed, persuaded—to do their Welsh baccalaureate through the medium of Welsh. So, they may be doing their A-levels in English, but if they've come from a Welsh-medium school, the college proactively seeks them out and makes sure that there is provision for them to do their Welsh bac qualification through the medium of Welsh, or, for instance, they are working very hard to form tutor groups. So, the tutor group—you might be doing your qualifications in English, but your tutor group will be a Welsh-medium tutor group, so that you are placed with other students who have come from Welsh-medium schools, and your tutor does all that tutor work through the medium of Welsh. So, there are other ways in which we can continue to help support children's linguistic ability, even if they have made a decision not to formally study their A-levels, for instance, or a course, through the medium of Welsh, and we're constantly looking at new ways. I think one particular aspect of the market—if we call it that word—that we're interested in are those students who've been to Welsh-medium schools, but at 16, perhaps, as I say, decide to go to a college. So, for instance, here in Cardiff, looking at childcare, and the opportunity—you know, there's a sector where we know we need a Welsh-medium workforce.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, definitely.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, again, it's trying to target those children, and track them from a previous Welsh-medium education into a college, capturing their language skills, and finding ways in which they can use them. Merthyr college—there's a Welsh-medium champion in Merthyr college actively looking for children who have come from a Welsh-medium background, and they are allocated roles as Welsh-medium champions within the college, to promote. So, there are lots of innovative ways, especially in the FE sector, that they're looking to keep children's linguistic skills relevant, and they're using them, even if they make that decision to switch the language of their tuition.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's encouraging to hear. My question was about community learning, where it's essentially older people who perhaps are coming back to education in a way that wasn't as formal as it was before, if I can put it like that—so we don't lose sight of them as well. I've still got an abiding worry that there's a cohort in the middle here of people who we might lose, and maybe pass on bad attitudes towards the Welsh language to their children, despite the fact that those children now have huge opportunities to absorb Welsh language skills and make the most of them.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. The next questions are from Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair. I'd like to ask about the regional skills partnership—partnerships, I should say—because they are having a direct influence now on courses and provision in FE, and with degree apprenticeships in universities as well. You, I believe, received the Graystone review back in March, so could you tell us a bit about what was in it, and what the recommendations are?
Eluned Morgan AM: So, some of the recommendations—. So, we wanted to review it because it's still relatively new. They've only been up and running about two or three years. He brought out some positives—things that we, I think, are doing well. I think they found that the voluntary partnership approach was quite effective. He did suggest that, actually, what they need to be producing is much shorter, sharper, focused reports. There was a suggestion of a lack of transparency, in terms of reporting from those regional skills partnerships, and that's obviously something now that we've undertaken to review. And there, I think, is an understanding that what we need to do now is to put in place those changes. But, on the whole, what we've done is to reinforce our commitment to the regional skills partnerships, and in particular now, through allocating £10 million to further education colleges to respond directly to the wishes and the desires of the regional skills partnerships, you can see actually the status of the regional skills partnerships has just grown significantly. Because now there is an outcome as a result of their recommendations. So, you've seen quite a dramatic shift, I think, in the respect for regional skills partnerships over the past year.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, are there any recommendations in terms of governance as well—
Eluned Morgan AM: Yes.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: —because, clearly, there may have been concerns about the way that people ended up being members of the partnerships? You touched on transparency—clearly, that's an issue as well. So, just particularly on governance—.
Eluned Morgan AM: So, on governance, I think there was an understanding that that needs to be looked at again, and that we need to get the right people around the table. And what is interesting is, I think, because it was a voluntary approach, because now people can see an outcome, we're getting different people now really showing an interest in being a part of the regional skills partnerships. So, governance is something again we're going to be addressing and following up the recommendations on in that Graystone review. Is there anything to add to that?
Huw Morris: Well, I was just going to say, I don't see why we couldn't share the review with you.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: That was going to be my next question.
Huw Morris: That might be helpful. And we are actioning the recommendations from that review.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The normal course of action would be, of course, to have published it and then to publish a Government response. Any reason why that wasn't done? I find it quite strange that you're saying that you're actually actioning the report and you still haven't published it. As a committee, we've not been party to any of that, really.
Eluned Morgan AM: I don't see why that can't be done. There's nothing to hide here, so why wouldn't we? We're the people who commissioned the report—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: I'm the one asking the questions. [Laughter.] No, but you're right. I just find it strange. I just find it odd that that hasn't been published.
Eluned Morgan AM: Okay. Well, we'll certainly get a copy of that to you.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, okay.
Huw Morris: May I just say: we ask a number of people periodically to comment on what we do, and agencies we work with do the same. The status of those reports varies. I don't suppose we'd anticipated there would be the interest in this issue that there is and so, as the Minister said, there's no problem that I can see with that.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And do you have a timeline in terms of by when you want to introduce some of the reforms that you're looking at now, because of this report?
Eluned Morgan AM: Some of them have already been introduced, so we're not waiting. The transparency issue that I think there was a bit of concern about—that's already been introduced. So, it's just about making sure that people understand what is going on in these regional skills partnerships. I think that's really important—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, quite, given the influence that they have now. Yes, sure. Just another short one on the regional skills partnerships, really: how effective are they in supporting the planning and delivery of Welsh-medium provision in post-16?
Eluned Morgan AM: I think there's more we can do in relation to that. But I think there are aspects where we're already changing in respect of specific sectors. So, if you think about the care sector, for example, what we do need is more people who have those skills to speak through the medium of Welsh in the care sector. And, coming back to the point that was made earlier, what we're doing now is looking at the curriculum: to what extent can we include—? You don't have to do your whole course through the medium of Welsh, but there are aspects that would be very useful. So, those kind of things are being taken on board now in terms of the courses. One of the things that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol are looking at is building the resources that will be needed in order to mainstream those into, in particular, those front-line service areas where we have a skills shortage.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Diolch.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, you know that this committee has taken a very keen interest in the emotional and mental health of our young people. In the summer, the English universities Minister made an announcement about the development of a new mental health charter. That followed some concerns about young people dying by suicide across the UK. Is Welsh Government expecting Welsh universities to sign up to that charter or are you planning to work on your own?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you for raising this. I think it's really important that whilst for many, many, many young people moving away from home and starting their degree course is an incredibly exciting time and something they look forward to hugely, it can bring significant stresses with it, especially for first-year students, who, as I said, are moving away, perhaps are suddenly responsible for finances in a way they've never been responsible for, for all the day-to-day living that perhaps they've relied on other people to assist them with. So, it can be quite a stressful time. So, it is right that we look at how we can support health and well-being for students, especially mental health and mental resilience. So, I very much welcome the work on the mental health charter, and HEFCW are engaged and keeping a very close eye on what's going on to see the opportunities for Welsh universities to participate in that. But this was on a recent agenda item that I had with HEFCW, and indeed with the vice-chancellors, when I met them last week, or the week before last. So, they are developing their own strategic approach to well-being and health for students, which will be underpinned by a co-created action plan with the universities themselves on supporting students with mental health problems in particular. So, the strategic approach and the action plan are being developed by HEFCW at the moment and HEFCW are also meeting with colleagues from England and Scotland to see the opportunities for a universal approach across the UK to supporting students. The universities, when I met with them recently, all shared a commitment to do better in this particular area. One, because it's the right thing to do, but, actually, stopping people from dropping out and not completing their courses obviously is of a financial benefit to the institution. So, it's actually the right thing to do for their students, they want to do it for that reason, but, actually, there is a strong financial underpinning to ensure that students complete their studies. So, it's looking at, again, each university looking at individual approaches of how better they can do that. But it's not just responding to students who become unwell, it's actually, 'What can we do to in the campus to maintain good mental health?' So, rather than just trying to fix a problem once it's occurred, it's 'What can we do?' And you'll be aware of individual institutions taking different approaches. It's not something that we dictate, but individual institutions—when they do exams, how work is assessed and marked and graded—are taking different steps to promote well-being, as well as then responding to situations where students become unwell. We do know that financial pressures can be a source of huge stress for students, so we are constantly working with the Student Loans Company to make sure that the services that they offer to people are as good as they can be, and that there are no unnecessary delays that, perhaps, put a student under pressure or give students worries about their financial situation. And I would argue our Diamond reforms, which allow students access to a living wage—for some students, completely by a grant, for some students, a combination of grant and loan, with no expectation at all that your parents will contribute, which is not the case in other places where there is an expectation of parental contribution—that actually, hopefully, addresses some of those financial worries that some students may have. But I am aware that if people are waiting for their grant or people are waiting for their payments, that can be a source of stress. So, ensuring that we have good performance by the Student Loans Company is crucial.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And I'm sure the committee's very interested to hear the update on that. Are you able to give us any indication of timescale by which you'd expect HEFCW and the individual universities to actually have this work in place?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not sure, but I will write to the committee and let you know. In fact, we can probably provide, from Universities Wales and from the work that's going on centrally, a list of proposals that are being undertaken.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. The next question is from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. I wanted to ask you about the pay dispute, and I know that you're not the employer, because I know that's going to be the first answer—
Kirsty Williams AM: You're right, that is the first answer. [Laughter.] Well anticipated.
Dawn Bowden AM: But we are in a stalemate here and you clearly have an interest in making sure that this dispute is resolved quickly in the interest of the students and the reputation of the colleges et cetera, et cetera. I can see how this dispute has arisen. When we've seen the teachers' pay settlement, we've seen FE settlements in England and Scotland higher than what's on the table here. And I am concerned, and I do think this is where the Welsh Government does have a role, because I am concerned that the employers seem to be using the funding issue as the reason not to have a reasonable settlement with staff. So, they've walked away from the table, they've said, 'One per cent, take it or leave it. Unless Welsh Government gives us any more money, that's the end of that.' And I'm really concerned about that, because this is potentially going to have a major impact on whether we can recruit and retain staff in FE colleges. And I look at the college in my constituency, Merthyr college—it's a tertiary college, they're providing A-level education across Merthyr and they're astounding results they've been getting as well. I'm coming round to the question in a moment. It's really: what more do you think you can do as a Government to try to get these parties back round the table and not allow the dispute to become a political football?
Eluned Morgan AM: Thanks very much for that. I think, first of all, you're absolutely right—this is about ColegauCymru's negotiation, but we are keeping a close eye on the situation. I think it's probably worth emphasising that the reason this has come about, or part of the reason, is because you've seen that pay settlement in relation to teachers' pay and we've had the consequential. So, sixth-form teachers are happy. The people actually providing the same teaching course in a different institution, you can understand why they may say, 'Something needs to change here.' The problem here is that it's about that, actually, that falls to the Welsh Government. We don't have that. Or at least it falls to FE colleges to fund that, and it's up to them to come up with that proposal. We are keeping a close eye on things. I think it's fair to say that we'll wait until they get further along down the line, but we are extremely aware of the sensitivities of the situation.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you for that, Minister. When you say you're keeping a close eye on it, have you actually had conversations with ColegauCymru? Because I note what you just said there: 'We'll keep an eye on it and wait and see what's happening.' Well, all the unions are currently consulting. One has already balloted for industrial action. We could have the other unions also balloting for industrial action. I mean, this isn't something we want in the FE sector, clearly, so is there anything more proactive that Government could actually be doing to try to bring a resolution to this dispute?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, we are listening and speaking to ColegauCymru, and also we're aware of what the unions are saying as well. So, I think that's probably as far as we can go at this point. When they come to a conclusion, and when they come to us and say, 'Look, this is the consequence and this will finish'—at this point, we have no idea where that settlement is likely to fall.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, thank you. Yes, we wouldn't expect you to make an announcement on this, because it's happening outside of Government, but there is a principle here, isn't there, in terms of pay equality between schoolteachers and FE? So, would you not wish to see a situation where we do have greater equality in that respect?
Eluned Morgan AM: In relation to teaching, I think it's fair to say that we would wish to see pay equality in relation to teaching, yes.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay, thank you. You emphasise 'in relation to teaching'—my next question is that, of course, within FE establishments you have teaching staff and non-teaching staff, and if there was to be some sort of increase, then would you not expect all staff to have that?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, let's see—that's up to ColegauCymru to negotiate and to discuss, so let's see what the outcomes are.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because some of the non-teaching staff are the lowest paid, as well, aren't they? So, you know—.
Eluned Morgan AM: Let's wait for the outcome of the negotiations. I think we are very aware of the situation. ColegauCymru are in that negotiation. We're aware of what the requests are from the trade union members, and we'll wait to see what they come up with before responding formally.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Could I just briefly as well ask about pensions, because that's coming down the line, potentially, isn't it, and the impact that's going to have on FE? One college was saying it will cost them £1 million if it happens next year. Are you thinking about any steps that you could take to support them, potentially, because obviously this is coming down the line, really, isn't it?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I think, already, we've got the situation in relation to teachers, and again what we've seen is the consequential and the UK Government honouring that. Again, what we don't have, necessarily, is that money coming down from the UK Government for us to be able to support it in the way that we might like to. It's early days on this, but it's something, again, we're keeping an eye on.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The fundamental question, really, is: if the money doesn't come down the line from Westminster, are you in a position to underwrite that?
Eluned Morgan AM: Well, we'll wait until we see that situation arising, but we're aware that that is an issue that we're going to have to deal with in future.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Diolch.
Lynne Neagle AM: In relation to the pay dispute, it's the committee's understanding that ColegauCymru's position is that, in order to meet a pay award that is commensurate with schoolteachers, an additional 3.5 per cent or £10.1 million is needed. Are you aware of that being their position?
Eluned Morgan AM: We are aware of their position, yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. The final question is from Hefin David.
Hefin David AM: You will have had, Cabinet Secretary, a letter from Professor Colin Riordan on 26 September regarding essay mills, in which he refers to the other letter that was sent by him and 39 vice-chancellors regarding essay mills and the fact that it's legalised cheating. In the letter—it was actually to me—that was copied to you, he says: 'We have requested the UK Government commission the QAA to publish a draft Bill by or before the beginning of the next parliamentary session. We've also requested the Department for Education give support to the establishment of a UK centre for academic integrity, which would research, analyse and combat academic misconduct. Any support that the Welsh Government can provide in this regard will also be appreciated, so I'm copying this letter to the Cabinet Secretary for Education.' Can you just give me your opinions on that, please?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think 'legalised cheating' is a polite way of describing what goes on. My officials have been in touch with their counterparts in the UK Government to see if we can co-ordinate a UK approach, which I think is necessary. I don't think there's any merit in us trying to do this on our own; it would be pointless. I hope that we can agree a formal approach as quickly as possible, and I will take every opportunity—. We're trying to establish a meeting with the UK Minister for HE before Christmas, and I will take every opportunity that I can to ensure that we can take some very, very strong action in this regard. But it does have to be done at a UK level. I want people who attend our universities and who work hard to achieve the grades that they get not to be disadvantaged by people who look to find an easy way out and are not willing to put—. I think it undermines the individual effort of individual students who are doing the right things, as well as the integrity of our system. I'm proud of the quality of the system that we have in the Welsh HE sector, and I want that maintained. I hope that we can agree a UK approach to ending this practice.
Hefin David AM: Okay. And in addition to the specifics regarding the quality assurance agency and the proposed centre for academic integrity, let's be clear: what we're talking about it outlawing those websites that offer to write essays for cash.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. And quite often, very bad ones as well. [Laughter.] My understanding is—
Hefin David AM: Well, they get through the system and they guarantee—. The websites, and I've experienced this, and I mentioned it in First Minister's questions—
Kirsty Williams AM: You did.
Hefin David AM: The websites say to you, 'Unless you tell anyone, you won't get caught', and students are believing that. The new student grant system—some of that money will go to these websites.
Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely, and, unlike you, I have no experience of this myself—
Hefin David AM: Well, I have experience of it. I've not done it, but I've experienced it. [Laughter.]
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm so old, Hefin, that such internet sites didn't exist when I was a student. [Laughter.] But, you know, I'm sure you listened to it too: a recent article, on a radio station, where, actually, it was an experiment just like you did—a student deliberately went through this process to expose, but, actually, what they got in return wasn't even very good. It was a particularly poor essay on the portrayal of women in Victorian literature, so they weren't even getting very good value for their money. [Laughter.] But, clearly, this is a terrible and abhorrent practice in our system, and, as I said, I will do everything that I can to work with colleagues across the United Kingdom to find a solution to this. If I thought it would help if we did it on our own, we could do that, but it won't help if we act unilaterally. It has to be a UK approach.
Hefin David AM: And just—final question—with regard to the representations you've made, do you feel that the UK Government is open to this course of action?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, officials are the ones who have had those direct, face-to-face conversations, rather than me. I hope to do that when I meet the Minister, hopefully before Christmas. Huw, would you like to comment?
Huw Morris: We haven't had anything formally, but I understand from what I've heard in England that there is an interest to do something. Whether that will take the form of a Bill in the timescale you've outlined, I'm not sure, but as the Minister said, we'll be exploring that with officials through the ministerial meetings.
Hefin David AM: Okay, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Are there any other questions from Members? No. Okay. Well, can I thank you all for attending and for answering all our questions? As usual, you'll have a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting, but thank you very much for your time. Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education regarding eligibility criteria for free school meals. I'd like to return briefly to that when we go into private. Paper to note 2: a letter from the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care on the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 3: also from that Minister, which is his response to the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee on the Bill. And paper to note 4: also a letter from that Minister to the Finance Committee on the Bill. And the final paper to note is from Mind Cymru regarding the task and finish group on a whole-school approach to mental health, and I will update Members on that when we go into private. Happy to note those? Item 4, then: can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you.
Query:
Summarize Eluned Morgan's opinion on the pay dispute situation.
Answer:
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Eluned Morgan agreed with Dawn Bowden that this was about ColegauCymru's negotiation. They would keep a close eye on this situation, but they would wait for the outcome of the negotiations of ColegauCymru before they take any serious steps. They had listened and spoken to ColegauCymru and were aware of what the unions were saying. However, at this point, they had no idea where the settlement was likely to fall.
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon. Can I welcome Members to the virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee this afternoon? In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I've determined that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Thursday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video-conference. A record of proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation related to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind everyone that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David AM, and there is no substitution. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay, thank you. Can I just note for the record that if for any reason I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Moving on, then, to item 2 this afternoon, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government in relation to the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on health and social services as they relate to children and young people in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Vaughan Gething AM, the Minister for Health and Social Services; Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Albert Heaney, deputy director general of the health and social services group; Nicola Edwards, deputy director, childcare, play and early years; Jean White, chief nursing officer; and Tracey Breheny, who is deputy director of mental health, substance misuse and vulnerable groups. Thank you all very much for your attendance today—we appreciate your time. We've got lots of questions that we'd like to cover, which we'll go straight into, with questions from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Good afternoon. How much do we understand about how this virus impacts children and young people, and their role in transmitting the virus? And how important is it that this is considered in the Welsh Government's exit strategy, especially in the context of reopening schools?
Vaughan Gething AM: Okay. I think it's fair to say that our understanding is developing across all age ranges about the virus and its impact. It's still the case that children and young people are less likely to be affected significantly by COVID-19 than people with a range of healthcare conditions, and in particular the age grade that we've seen, and that's underpinned the advice we've given to the whole population about self-isolation by people in age categories, as well as the extremely vulnerable group we advise to shield. We still don't understand everything about the role that children have to play in the transmitting of the virus, and this is one of the difficulties we face. Because in cold and flu, children transmit the virus and they're also susceptible, in particular to the flu, as well; that's why we have a childhood immunisation programme for the flu as well. We do know that there's some developing evidence about what's called a Kawasaki-like syndrome, but that's affecting very small numbers of children. We have one possible case in Wales—a child who's in critical care—but that isn't confirmed. That's still a developing knowledge base. So, the rest of the world is still trying to understand that too. But the generals still apply—that children are less likely to be affected than older people, but can nevertheless still become unwell, and that's, if you like, one of the few positives in this condition. But as I say, we're still learning, so I won't try and present a fully accurate or finalised picture of knowledge in this area.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And in terms—[Inaudible.]
Vaughan Gething AM: Chair. Sorry. Excuse me, Chair. Sorry—with apologies to the Member, my translation stopped after a while, so I heard the first part translated, and then it just fell off. I'm really sorry, but I didn't want to try to answer a different question to the one that may be being asked, and don't think that's fair to the Member or other members of the committee.
Lynne Neagle AM: Can we check that translation is back on, please, and maybe Siân could repeat her question?
Vaughan Gething AM: I can hear it, yes.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, Siân, would you mind repeating that, please?
Sian Gwenllian AM: Not at all. I was discussing NHS services, including critical care services, and I was asking whether there is sufficient capacity in place to manage any increase. We, of course, hope that there won't be any increase, but should there be an increase, particularly in paediatric cases of coronavirus—let's say such a thing were to happen and this rare syndrome that you mentioned did emerge here in Wales—do we have the capacity in place to deal with these, and with the impact of coronavirus more generally on children?
Vaughan Gething AM: At this point in time, the answer is 'yes', and there is always a significant caveat, though, and the 'but' that comes in there is that despite the fact that we've got a plan for surge capacity in paediatric care—. So, when we increased critical care right across the national health service, we of course looked at paediatric care as part of that as well. So, we can flex up our capacity. But the challenge in all of that this is—it's part of my caution and the Government's caution about moves out of lockdown. So, it's much easier to go into lockdown than to come out of it, and I know you heard evidence from the Minister for Education last week about the approach that she wants to take and the principles behind doing that. So, actually, we'll need to think carefully about if we are reopening schools, even on a limited basis, what that then does to the circulation of coronavirus within that group of children as well as within the wider community, and then to try to understand whether the current capacity we have planned for in surge capacity is still going to be enough, because, actually, one of the real success stories of the first stage of the fight with coronavirus is that we haven't had our critical care capacity filled up. It's been extended, and the extension has meant that we haven't been overtopped. If we hadn't done that, we definitely would have been. And we'll need to carry on testing ourselves and seeing what's happening and looking at the evidence and making sure that the plan we already have got that we published for paediatric critical care is still fit for purpose, and again to reconsider if we need to do things differently. But that's part of the difficulty of being a Minister at the moment—you don't know everything that's coming, and on this disease in particular, we do know that we're still learning with each passing day.
Lynne Neagle AM: [Inaudible.]—Siân?
Sian Gwenllian AM: Hello. Yes, those are the questions I had on that section.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Lovely. Thank you very much. Right, we'll move on now then to some question on access to health services from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Minister, just some concern that you will have heard about in terms of parents and carers maybe not taking their children into the healthcare system for other conditions while the coronavirus pandemic is with us. How are you monitoring that situation at the moment and have you had to look at your own commutation strategy in relation to that?
Vaughan Gething AM: We've had to look at some specifics around communication, so challenges about not just different languages, but about how we get messages to people in a very different environment, and it's really challenging. So, for example, our health visitor service has absolutely not stopped. We've had to think about the way it works, and I had this conversation earlier this week with the chief nurse. But the bigger challenge are parents refusing to engage with the service. I understand people's fear and anxiety, but that then means that their family, and in particular their child, isn't getting the sort of proactive care that we would want them to have. So, there's a real concern both at the professional leadership end and for the chief nurse and for Ministers as well about how we can get through. That's actually about rebuilding people's confidence in the service, and that isn't straightforward because there's a broader concern about coronavirus still circulating. But I think for us it's really important to reiterate that we have thought again about how to provide the service. We've thought about how to protect staff and families and the very clear message to parents is to please make sure that when health and care professionals are calling to help and support your family, please discuss your concerns with them. We're doing even more remotely, via telephone and online as well. There are times you need to be physically in the same place, for example on routine vaccinations, because we certainly haven't stopped that programme either, and I really wouldn't want to see that one of the unintended consequences of what we've done is that if parents don't engage with that service, we could potentially see a rise in other diseases. We're all, I think—not just you in your constituency, but others who are on this call and others as well—seeing an occasional reappearance of measles, and that's because people didn't engage with the vaccination programme. I don't want, either myself or a different health Minister in the future, to be sat here talking about how in years to come the failure to engage in a vaccination programme has led to clearly avoidable but significant harm to children and young people and the communities they live in.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Jean, you wanted to come in.
Vaughan Gething AM: You need to unmute yourself. Oh, no—
Professor Jean White: Thank you. I just want to add to what the Minister said. So, I approached the immunisation lead in Public Health Wales to see exactly what has been happening recently and they said at the very beginning of the outbreak parents were very reluctant about coming forward for their routine immunisations, but recently, through lots of energy from the immunisation clinics and the leads within it reaching out to families, that trend seems to have turned and there's now a much better attendance. One of the most important things we can do to protect our children is to make sure they have their vaccinations. So, yes, there was a bit of a downturn, but it does seem to be improving at the moment. Thank you.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, thank you. And that answered my second question, Chair, so I'm happy to leave it there. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much. We're going to go on now to some questions about mental health from Siân Gwenllian. Siân.
Sian Gwenllian AM: It's a cause of great concern to us all, of course, in terms of the impact of this crisis on mental health and well-being among our children and young people. So, what assessment has the Government undertaken of the impact on these aspects in young people and what work is being done to understand the impact of the pandemic? What longer term measures will be put in place and what support services will be put in place?
Vaughan Gething AM: Again, I think it's helpful that you've already heard from the education Minister last week, because I think the first of her key principles for returning to school is the impact on the emotional health and well-being of children. So, children's mental health was a central concern and remains so for both myself and the education Minister. Part of the honest challenge, again, is that we don't fully understand the impact on the mental health and well-being of children but we do expect there will have been an impact. So, we're working together with both health boards and our own knowledge and analytical services across the Government to both try to further understand what that is and the difference. Until we have more contact with families, we may not fully understand that, and that's a real point of concern for me. In all of the unknowns within this, the impact on mental health and well-being is absolutely one of them, because we're looking at how we then develop not just a recovery plan for the economy but a recovery plan around mental health, how we support people, and that will have to be informed by the understanding of what's happening when we get more engagement with families about the level of need, and then how we need to think about that. Obviously, it's a key factor for their return to school, but, actually, for the life children and young people lead outside the school environment, and that will be difficult because we're going to phase out of lockdown—it's not going to be a one-hit measure. That absolutely isn't going to happen. We're going to be looking at, at each point, what difference has been made, what more we can do. And, again, there are the efforts we're making to make sure that our online support services and our telephone support services—that we keep on reminding people that they're there and are available, and we want people to make use of them, because I know, as this committee said, we'd much rather be able to support people and intervene earlier rather than wait until there's a much bigger problem in a period of months in the future.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, in reality, there's been no assessment undertaken because it's difficult to do that. So, the full picture in terms of the outcomes of the crisis—you don't know what they are at the moment as things stand.
Vaughan Gething AM: We can't know, because we don't have that level of contact. There is a development—. I wouldn't say that no work's being done, but I couldn't tell you honestly that that work is finalised and we have a definitive understanding of the picture. If I tried to say that, then I'm sure you'd ask me, 'How on earth can you say that? If you're not having regular contact with people, you can't possibly understand the picture.' And it's much better to say, 'We don't understand the full picture. We know there'll have been an impact. We're working alongside health boards and others, but we'll know more as we carry on having more contact with families.' I'll look at a variety of different areas, again, both to reform the recovery plan, but also then to understand what we need to do at various points in the future, and the picture that we're seeing isn't straightforward and we need to make sure that we don't try to pretend to ourselves or to the public that there is a one-off measure that will allow us to be successful in all the areas that we'd want to be.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But can you give the committee an assurance today that this area of mental health and well-being is going to be a priority for you as health Minister?
Vaughan Gething AM: Of course. Not just on the work we've done in the past; not just because it's one of the key principles for the education Minister about the reopening of schools, but it is a real worry list for me about how we understand the impact on the mental health and well-being of children and young people, and to move forwards, that we don't end up with an entire generation of children and young people who grow up with a range of damage because we haven't thought about what that will look like. So, the mental health recovery plan will of course be of very real importance to me. In amongst all the other priorities I have, I'm certainly not going to allow the mental health and well-being of children and young people to be forgotten.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And how does the current capacity in terms of child and adolescent mental health services compare to service capacity prior to the coronavirus outbreak in Wales? Have you had to shift some resources over from CAMHS, for example, in order to deal with more general aspects of coronavirus?
Vaughan Gething AM: No, we've actually got—. Maybe perhaps it might be helpful, Chair, if Tracey Breheny could say something about the way that we're monitoring the impact we have, in terms of we've got a reporting tool, but also weekly contact with leads in CAMHS services.
Lynne Neagle AM: Tracey.
Tracey Breheny: Of course. Thanks, Minister. Yes, on that question, we moved pretty quickly at the beginning of the pandemic phase to put in place, as the Minister said, a weekly monitoring tool of all local health boards, so through that tool, we look at that every week in terms of collecting information. Whilst national reporting's been stood down, we are picking up assurance through that tool on things like staff sickness in CAMHS services, referral numbers and so on, so we do have that tool in place, and at the moment, that's telling us that the system can meet the capacity; has the capacity to meet need.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Have CAMHS staff been shifted over to do other work during this virus outbreak?
Tracey Breheny: There has been some movement, as I'm saying, around health boards, particularly where in the first phase of the epidemic the concentration was on in-patient provision, providing critical care, but my understanding is from the latest tool that we looked at last week, those staff are gradually not just returning to work from self-isolation or whatever, or from different parts of the system.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then, what about the capacity for CAMHS primary mental health services? Has there been a reduction in that capacity since the beginning of the pandemic in terms of in-patients? Because that's what I'm hearing, that there has been such a reduction, but how are those patients then treated and served?
Tracey Breheny: In terms of in-patient capacity, that is in the system in both the north Wales and in the south Wales unit at the moment. There were some discharges of young people, but we've had the assurance that that was only undertaken where it was clinically safe to do so and where the community support was in place.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And finally in this section from me, given that schools are of course closed and that schools are so very important in terms of signposting young people towards services, how can young people access appropriate services—online services, for example? How are they signposted towards those services at the moment?
Vaughan Gething AM: Well, we've not closed off general practice and, as you know, we've expanded the ability for people to access services in an online manner. We've expanded a range of telephone advice services, so the telephone advice service we already provide, we've made sure that's maintained, and both myself and the deputy Minister have referred to that on a number of occasions. I think the real struggle and the real difficulty is actually how you punch through different messages when the broader news agenda is so overwhelmingly focused on headline messages in other areas. That is, again, a worry for me, but the communications we have within the health and care system, people should know where to refer people to and how to provide access to both telephone and online support that continues to be available, and actually, as I say, we've expanded that right across our healthcare system. That's what I’m keen to see continue into the future. Whatever the post-COVID-19 world is, I don't want to miss out on the progress we have made in the online provision of services. Of course, most children and young people expect to be able to access services in an online manner already.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But, of course, there will be some who are missed; they may fall between two stools because they won’t know where to turn.
Vaughan Gething AM: Yes, and that, again, comes back to our challenge of how we help children and young people in their context, with their families, to know where support and advice and guidance is. Many people are defaulting to their general practitioner if they can't find advice somewhere else, so that's why there's the information we're providing through general practice to signpost people, so those pathways haven’t been closed off. It's about making sure that people have alternative means that they’re prepared to use at this point in time. If we go back to where we started this evidence session, we were talking about the difficulty of families who don't want to engage in a traditional person-to-person contact or being in the same room as someone else or allowing people into their home. So, there's a real challenge about how we make the service available, but then encourage people to take it up, so that we don’t see much greater harm that we have to try and resolve at a later point.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. I've got a supplementary from Suzy Davies, and can I remind Ministers about concise answers, please? Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, thank you. Just as we're speaking about children and young people's mental health, I wonder if you can confirm whether you've seen the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child's reports about what they call the grave physical and psychological effect on children and young people, and whether the operational guidance you've given out is responding to that in any way, or maybe there was something in that that you hadn’t thought of and you can respond to as we go along.
Vaughan Gething AM: I, personally, haven't read that advice, but the Government's already concerned about the direct physical and mental health impact of lockdown restrictions. You don't need to be a parent to recognise that that’s a potential issue for children and young people. But, I'm sure—. I haven't read it, but that's been signposted, so I can check with officials if they have and if that would change the advice and the position that we're already adopting, because we do regularly look at a range of advice from a range of sources, including the UN, the World Health Organization and others.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, and we are going to come onto children's rights. But, as you know, Minister, the prevention of young suicide is a cause that is very close to my heart. Can I ask what assessment the Welsh Government has made of an increase in suicide amongst children and young people during this pandemic and because of this pandemic?
Vaughan Gething AM: Apart from the general concern that I've expressed on mental health generally, we are already investigating, we're having a—. We've commissioned, through the Government, the delivery unit to work with the national advisory group, including Dr Ann John and other people, to review the current, unexpected deaths during the start of the pandemic here in Wales, because we want to try to understand the wider concerns about the potential effects of the restrictions on the mental health and well-being of children and young people, and if that is leading to a spike in suicide or not. So, that's why we've commissioned that review to be carried out with the current numbers of unexpected deaths that we have, so we're able then to provide a report to understand where we are. My understanding is that we should have a report on that review before the end of this month and, obviously, I know the committee’s got an interest, so if it's helpful we can write to you once we've had a chance to receive the report and to look at it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please. Thank you. In terms of provision of crisis care, then, how has that been impacted by the pandemic? Are those crisis services available for children and young people who need them at the moment?
Vaughan Gething AM: Yes, they continue to be available. We still have seven-day-a-week crisis care. We've made clear that mental health services, including those for children and young people, are essential services to be provided. They're not services to be scaled down. They were not part of the series of measures that I stopped within the health service on 13 March. We have built up those crisis care services over a period of time, and the last thing we want to see is to see them disappear during this period of time when there are well-understood concerns about emotional and mental health.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Moving on to perinatal mental health, this morning I hosted a round-table with the NSPCC where we heard about lots of good practice that's going on in terms of supporting new mothers and their families in this period, but I wonder if you can tell the committee what you are doing as a Government to make sure that there is consistent perinatal support for all women across Wales in what is a difficult time for any new mother, let alone in a pandemic.
Vaughan Gething AM: We continue, again, to provide our perinatal mental health service. That's not been stopped either. We've also been looking at how that's provided on a phone or online basis where possible, because again the same concerns exist about physical contact with people. So, we're looking to make sure that the progress isn't lost that we've made. We know there is more to go. So, the service may have changed, but it still absolutely exists. And again, part of the challenge in all of this is about the pause or the interruption in work to create the in-patient capacity that I've previously committed to. So, I want to understand what that really means, but again the problem is, at this point in the pandemic, I can't give you an answer about what that means for that in-patient provision. We're still committed to it, but I'm concerned about the time frame—that is partly about the length and the extent. But again, I'm really impressed by the continuing commitment of our staff to deliver this service for women in what is a particularly uncertain time. It's difficult enough in terms of the challenge in terms of perinatal mental health in normal times, about people being prepared to come forward and then receiving the sort of response they'd want, and even more so now.
Lynne Neagle AM: Is the Welsh Government aware that there's apparently been a decrease in the numbers of women being willing to look at mother and baby unit provision, and will you be taking that into account in your planning? Because, obviously, we wouldn't want people to think that was because of a lack of need; it's down to fear and the lockdown.
Vaughan Gething AM: Yes, we're aware there's been a reduction in people wanting to make use of the service—or being prepared to make use of the service is probably a better phrase—because we know that's the same with a range of other areas. There aren't fewer people having strokes than there were at this period of time last year; the reason why the figures are different is the way that people are behaving because of their concerns about coronavirus. So, I certainly wouldn't be using this period of time to plan for the need that exists for a facility that we want to create. So, I'm happy to give that assurance, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. The next questions are from Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. It's a straightforward one, really. Obviously, we have the detail of the third sector resilience fund and the—there are two funds, aren't there, for third sector organisations? But can you give us some indication of how much of that support is being targeted to children and young people, and perhaps you can specifically mention how much of the £6.3 million for hospices is for children's hospices? I don't mind who answers that one.
Lynne Neagle AM: The Deputy Minister would like to come in, I think.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Certainly, I'm sure the committee is aware, as Suzy has said, of the funds that are available for third sector services. The Deputy Minister and the Chief Whip, of course, announced on 6 April the £24 million Welsh Government third sector COVID-19 response fund, and that of course is more than we would have had as a result of consequentials from the UK Government. They can also benefit from the £400 million economic resilience fund, but I am aware that some groups don't benefit from that and they may not qualify for that. So, we've also got third sector support being delivered by WCVA, such as the voluntary services emergency fund, which supports volunteering, and the third sector resilience fund, supporting organisations to stay afloat. We are working very closely with the third sector on issues such as support for fostering services, care leavers and repurposing funding so that they can support the crises. Voices from Care Cymru has developed a specific offer for care leavers, and the Fostering Network provides extended helplines. We've got lots of examples of third sector partners working with children and young people. Childline bases in Wales remain open and operational, and are still providing information and support. And, actually, about 50 per cent of contact with Childline at the moment is to do with COVID-19. NSPCC has put together a support page for young people about COVID-19. The NSPCC UK helpline have also reported a decrease in calls resulting in a referral to children's social services at the start of the lockdown period, but, since then, the numbers have actually risen. So, there are lots of examples of help for children. Meic, Action for Children, and, of course, Voices From Care Cymru have come up with their own specific package. In terms of the actual percentage that is being spent on children, I can't give you an actual figure for that, but, certainly, there are a whole range of projects that are there helping children. I think the Minister for Health and Social Services will be able to respond to the hospice question.
Vaughan Gething AM: It's about £1.5 million from the £6.3 million that's gone to Tŷ Gobaith and Tŷ Hafan, Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you very much for that. So, it's about 25 per cent. Perhaps if you could ask the Deputy Minister, when she's in a position to do so, to let us have a note. Before we finish on this point, could I ask the Deputy Minister, again, about whether any of the things you've been talking about now is additional money, because, obviously, you mentioned yourself one of these funds is £24 million. Some of the work you mentioned is continuity of existing work. So, again, if you don't have the answer to hand, perhaps you could send us a note in due course about how much extra is going in.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think most of those things I mentioned are things that are already there, and the £24 million is for support and extra help. So, any more information, I can send to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Lovely. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. The next questions, then, are from Dawn Bowden on safeguarding and child protection.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Deputy Minister, because one of the questions I was going to ask was around some of the work that you've been doing with the third sector on safeguarding and child protection, and I think you've covered that. But what I'm particularly keen to find out is how you're monitoring the impact of coronavirus on child protection and safeguarding in the round. I know the health Minister raised this as a concern in Plenary only recently, and it's really how we are monitoring it, what concerns have been identified, and how we're going to start to tackle some of those.
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Thank you very much, Dawn, for that question. Obviously, it is difficult to monitor if there's not easy access to the children that we're referring to, and that's why we have been trying to encourage the vulnerable children to go into school or childcare settings. And there's been a lot of encouragement for that happen. The Minister, the director of education and the director of social services sent out a joint letter recently to all the local authorities, asking them to try to encourage the vulnerable children and the families to get the children to go to school. In fact, we've now got 890 vulnerable children attending school settings, and that's the highest number that we've had at all since the opening of the scheme. But it's still only a tiny drop in the ocean. But it's very good, and it is progress that the numbers attending are now going up. But, of course, there are a lot of children who are not attending school and the social services are not necessarily seeing. There has been a drop in safeguarding referrals to social services. Those numbers are now beginning to go up, but there certainly was a significant drop, which is a great deal of concern. One local authority, in fact, reported a drop of 27 per cent in terms of safeguarding referrals compared to this time last year. So, I issued a written statement on 1 May, setting out the work taken forward under our cross-departmental vulnerable children, young people and safeguarding work stream, and encouraging people to report any safeguarding concerns there are. Because, obviously, we are dependent on the public authorities—you know, schools and health services—to report any concerns, and at the moment, obviously, they're not there to report them. So, we have made this public appeal for everyone to look out for each other, and I was very interested in what Siân Gwenllian told me about what was being done in Anglesey in terms of sending out a message via social media to get people to look and listen, and to raise their concerns, because, obviously, safeguarding is the concern of everybody in the community. But I think that we are reassured in terms of our contact with the local authorities that they are, in fact, keeping close touch, as far as they possibly can, with all the children that are vulnerable. For those where it is very critical, face-to-face contact is still taking place, and there are imaginative ways of trying to keep in touch with all the other children and families. So, it is a difficult situation and we are concerned about it, but I think as much as possible is being done.
Lynne Neagle AM: Jean, you wanted to come in on that.
Professor Jean White: Just to add to what the Deputy Minister was saying, the health visiting service has not been stopped or stepped back. It has consolidated some of the ways that it does the Healthy Child Wales Programme, but, for those families that are identified as having particular need or have children that are particularly vulnerable, all the normal contacts have been maintained, so they're not unseen to the normal health visiting service. That covers both Flying Start and general health visiting areas. Thank you.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Jean, for that, and, Deputy Minister, would there be any value at this point in actually revisiting the current Welsh Government definition and guidance around vulnerable children, in terms of who we identify as vulnerable? Because this opens up a whole new group of children that are not necessarily known to services but can still be vulnerable. So,it's just looking at the current guidance that we have. Do you think that needs revisiting at all?
Julie Morgan AM: The definition of vulnerable children and young people includes those with a social worker and with statements of special educational needs, and the most vulnerable of these should be prioritised. But we have now looked at this again, and we've set out an expanded definition, and we intend to publish that this week. This does include discretion for local authorities to have some flexibility and to be able to offer a place for those who may be on the edge of receiving care and support if they are known to be vulnerable by the school or by family support services. Because, obviously, the children that we know about, we know about, but there are those other children who may be on the edge of care—the children that we've been trying very hard, as part of our policies in the Welsh Government, to keep with their families, with a lot of support. Those are the ones that we also want to support. So, we are giving discretion to the local authorities in order to have a degree of flexibility, and that will be published this week.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on now, then, to talk about looked-after children and children on the edge of care, with questions from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. Can you set out the impact the coronavirus emergency has had on the care system, including edge-of-care services, and where have there been areas of concern?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, local authorities have obviously had to change their working practices in response to the COVID emergency, so a red-amber-green rating risk assessment was adopted by all local authorities at the start of the pandemic to ensure that vulnerable children and families receive the right way of receiving services and the frequency of contact from the services. This is being dealt with on a case-by-case basis, so every case that is known is being RAG rated and services are being linked to that. Also, there is very close contact between Welsh Government officials and the local authorities. There are weekly meetings between officials and the heads of the children's services. I can't speak too highly, really, about the amount of support and mutual work that has been going on. We've been assured that there have been no significant increases in the numbers of looked-after children, and the number of placement breaks are minimal. The other interesting good point is the children services workforce remains at 90 per cent plus, and, obviously, that is a great testimony to the dedication of the workforce. So, there's very close contact. The children are all being monitored individually, and I think in the circumstances we're all doing what we possibly can. I know that Albert Heaney is able, probably, to respond in more detail to the contacts, if you'd like to have that.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think we'll move on to the next section. Can I remind everyone again: sharp focused questions and concise answers? Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thanks. How is Welsh Government ensuring that vulnerable children have access to the necessary technology to maintain contact with their social workers and other support workers and networks?
Julie Morgan AM: It is normal practice to ensure that children and families do have appropriate access to technology to keep in touch with social workers, so that is part of our normal practice. We're very keen as a Welsh Government that no children are left behind in their education during this period. So, last month, as you will know, the Minister for Education announced £3 million of funding to help digitally excluded learners so that they've got access to the internet, so that they can fully participate in online learning. So, we do normally ensure that they've got digital contact for social workers.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Can you set out the picture regarding children's residential care? What are the challenges these care settings are facing, and have any children's homes closed?
Julie Morgan AM: Residential children's homes are not really reporting any particularly difficult issues, and certainly they have been able to resolve any issues that have happened. So, I'm very pleased to report that. We obviously expect all children in residential care to be supported, and to keep contact with their families and with their siblings, and that is going on, although it may be by technology rather than face to face. We know that some young people have found the social distancing a challenge, and I think it’s easy for us to understand that they have found that quite difficult. So, there have been a few issues related to that, but, where that has happened, local authorities have been able to resolve that on a case-by-case basis, and really there are not any major issues. In terms of residential care, Hillside is functioning well—no reporting issues. The staffing levels are normal. There are fewer children and young people there, so, in fact, there's been an opportunity to give a great deal of attention to the children, and I think we've had very good reports about how that has happened. So, I am absolutely reassured by our officials here that everything is as well as it could be. I also meet with the children's commissioner once a week, who is an independent source, and she said when I met her last week, 'Well, as far as we know, it's all good news'. So, I don't think we have any concerns at the moment about the residential care.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Moving on to foster care, how is Welsh Government working with local authorities to meet the challenges set out by the Association of Fostering and Adoption Cymru and its fostering guidelines?
Julie Morgan AM: We have worked with the fostering organisations. We have had close communications with them, and we've supported AFA Cymru to develop guidance for foster carers, and that guidance has been very strongly welcomed across the sector. We're working with the third sector. I think I mentioned before specific issues such as support for fostering services and, of course, care leavers. The Fostering Network has extended its helpline hours, and, of course, Voices from Care—I mentioned them before—have developed this particular offer of support for care leavers. I've been reassured, as well, from Voices from Care that the young people appear to be more stable now—that they have contact with. But that's online help for them. So, we have had quite a lot of contact with the fostering services.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, the final point on that, then: the Fostering Network and others, as you know, have called for foster parents who can temporarily no longer foster due to the current virus emergency to be paid a retainer, with all foster carers receiving extra financial support for additional expenses. What is your position on this, please?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, we haven't had any specific representations from local authorities asking for support for foster carers, but some local authorities have paid retainers and some people, I believe, have increased the amount of money that they are paying. They've also given support for various activities and things—have helped sometimes, I think, with broadband access and that sort of issue. And, obviously, foster carers who do require additional support should be approaching their local authorities or the independent fostering agency.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Albert, I just wanted to check there wasn't anything you wanted to add, please.
Albert Heaney: Thank you very much, Chair. I think the only thing to add was relating to monitoring. The Minister has indicated that we are speaking weekly with heads of children's services, and we do now have a data collection that's been implemented to capture the critical data in relation to the children's services. So, that will assist us in our monitoring arrangements going forward. Thank you, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you very much. And the next questions, then, are from Suzy Davies.
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to have a quick answer from probably the Minister, I think, about the primary legislation and the regulations that followed, about which children's rights impact assessments have been done. Have any been done, and can they be shared with the committee if they have? Sorry, Deputy Minister—my mistake.
Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's been a very difficult time, as you appreciate, in terms of having to make legislation very quickly, and it hasn't been possible to do the impact assessments that we would normally do. However, I am very pleased to say that we're actually launching a survey of children. We're going to be launching it next week. And this is to try to get from children their views of what's happened, what we've been doing, and their views on the whole COVID-19 situation. So, we're doing this in conjunction with the children's commissioner and with Young Wales and with the Youth Parliament. So, this is an online survey that we hope will be going out to thousands of children, and we will get their response in terms of what are the important issues that have arisen for them, what they feel about what's happened during this period, what they feel about the way that we've dealt with the schools, the way that they've had to cope in not going school and being at home for so long. And so we're trying to get feedback from young people. So, I'm very pleased that we're doing that, but, in terms of an impact assessment, it has been very difficult, as I'm sure you can imagine, to be able to do those at these times. I think that Albert wants to come in on that.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, because I'll pursue that in a sec.
Lynne Neagle AM: Albert.
Albert Heaney: Thank you. Thank you, Chair, and I think Nicola indicated before me, so apologies, Nicola. Just to say for the committee, really importantly, that we haven't introduced any easements in relation to children's services legislation. I think that's really quite crucial. So, from a Welsh context, the standards that are in place do remain, so therefore there wouldn't have been a necessity for us to do a children's rights impact assessment in relation to the primary legislation. I think that's particularly a strong point to us in Wales, both in terms of safeguarding arrangements, but also ensuring that children's rights are protected at a crucial time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Nicola.
Nicola Edwards: Thanks. In terms of childcare and education, we're obviously looking at the provisions under the coronavirus Act to allow us to maybe ease some of the statutory requirements, and we are going to be undertaking a full suite of impact assessments on those. Obviously, the coronavirus Act itself was UK Government legislation and they ran their own impact assessments, but, in terms of how we implement it in the childcare and education space—and I think Albert was just saying the same thing—we definitely will be looking at those impacts in terms of going forward.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, just to come back on that then, are you saying to me that, as a result of the various coronavirus regulations that we've had, no assessments for children's needs have been postponed, cancelled or done very quickly online rather than in person?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, I think, as Albert said, that there was no relaxation of regulation for children's social care. You know, that's—there haven't been any in Wales.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but that's what—. There's no relaxation, but what's happening in practice? We're down on staff across all our councils and in our third sectors—who's doing the children's needs assessments, particularly for young carers?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, I—. Albert, can you answer that?
Albert Heaney: I think the first thing to say to the committee is that, going back, we took a very strong line at the beginning that we weren't going to introduce easements in requirements to children's social services. Of course, through the way that practitioners and social work practitioners have to operate, they are having to operate through a different time. So, assessments are still taking place for child protection and safeguarding concerns; assessments are still taking place, and especially in relation to—as you mentioned—young carers, to support their needs. So, arrangements—[Inaudible.] But they're having to be slightly differently done—so, some of the technology, and keeping in contact and keeping those visits. So, we've used, for example, the St David's Day fund to make sure that care leavers are well supported in terms of having contact and are accessible and able to engage as well. So, we're having to be a little bit more—and social services departments are having to be a little bit more—innovative in the use of technology in the way that they've engaged as well. But personal visits are taking place, and visits especially, as the Minister mentioned earlier on—they actually individually assess each case to determine the frequency of visits, to make sure that those contacts are maintained with children at a critical time.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. I don't want to take this much further, but personal visits and social distancing could be slightly problematic. I just want to finish with this one question, if I may. We've had recommendations from the Carers Trust, or Carers Trust Wales. Have they been accepted by Government, and is it those that are driving the agenda of the task and finish group that you announced the other day, Deputy Minister?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, those will certainly be considered by the task and finish group. I've had a letter from the Carers Trust about those issues, and we are setting up this group, as you know, and we will be looking at those issues in the group.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you. Any steal on when that might report?
Julie Morgan AM: I don't have that at the moment.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Maybe we could have a note on that, Deputy Minister. Can I just say, we are running short of time? We did start late, so, if the Ministers are happy, we'll carry on until 2.10 p.m.—3.10 p.m.—if that's okay. And the next questions are from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: [Inaudible.]
Lynne Neagle AM: Hold on a sec, Siân, we've lost translation again. Can we just see what can be done to get the translation back? Sorry, Siân. Is there anyone who can help with the translation? There you go, Siân. Thank you.
Sian Gwenllian AM: You will know, Deputy Minister—because we have discussed this in private session—my major concerns with regard to the childcare sector, and what kind of childcare sector we will have at the end of this crisis, as families start to return to the workplace. There are still some childcare providers who are falling between the cracks and aren't receiving financial support. Do you agree—are there people who are still not being supported, and why isn't the Welsh Government able to provide that support for everyone in the childcare sector?
Julie Morgan AM: Thank you, Siân, for that question. And I know that we have had a discussion about this before. Basically, we are aware that there are some sectors in the childcare sector that do fall through some of the loops. We have guaranteed that we will pay the money for the childcare offer for three months. So, that is guaranteed to them, and they are able to take advantage of the Government's job retainer scheme, but that does mean that there is a problem, as I think we've discussed before, of the double funding issue, and that is something that we have been trying to resolve and there have been discussions with the Treasury in Whitehall about ways forward on this. I'm going to ask Nicola to come in in a minute, because she's much more up to date with the discussions about that, but, so far, I don't think very much progress has been made on that. But we are looking to see if there are any other ways that we can get help to the childcare sector, and I'm actually following this meeting with a meeting with the Deputy Minister for equality and chief whip, who is responsible for the voluntary sector, because obviously many of the groups that we're talking about would come under the voluntary sector, because they have voluntary committees, but they fall between many stools, because they rent premises rather than own premises and they don't have high turnovers that would qualify them for some of these grants. So, perhaps I could ask Nicola to come in to expand on that.
Nicola Edwards: Absolutely.
Lynne Neagle AM: Briefly, if possible.
Nicola Edwards: I'll try and be brief, because I'm conscious of time. So, some childcare settings can access funding under the small business rate relief scheme, but certainly not all of them; some of them can access funding under the economic resilience fund, and, as the Deputy Minister said, we're following up for some of them to be able to access funding under the third sector resilience funding. All of the childcare settings can apply for the UK Government's coronavirus job retention scheme, but there are some complications around that in that it's a salary-based scheme and you can't claim two types of public funding for the same individual member of staff. So, if you were using funding under the childcare offer to pay for a particular member of staff's salary, you can't access CJRS and furlough that individual with Government money as well, and that has led to some confusion and complication about how that balances, which we're trying to work through with the sector and with local authorities around the rules and regulations that the Treasury and HMRC have put in place around that. Alongside that, there's a whole range of different loans and services that are available. Some of those are less attractive to some childcare settings, but they are still available and Business Wales is offering support and advice for settings on how they can help weather this storm and support their workers as best they can. We're also having some conversations now with our economy colleagues and with Business Wales about what happens next, the recovery and the return of the sector, and we've just come out of a meeting with the childcare sector around the support they think they would need to have in place to be able to return from this as well. So, it's a topic that's very much live at the moment.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm sure you can share my concerns and the concerns of Cwlwm, which represents the childcare sector and the nursery school sector, that there are a number of providers that aren't receiving support at all and are likely to collapse as a result of this. What I can't understand is why you, in collaboration with the Minister for the economy, Ken Skates, can't devise a specific grant package for the providers that aren't currently receiving support, or we'll be facing a situation that is very difficult when people are seeking childcare for their children and those settings won't be available to them. Why isn't it possible to have a bespoke scheme for those that are falling between the cracks in this sector?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, that is what we're looking to see—if we can get a bespoke scheme. I absolutely agree with you: it is absolutely vital that we keep this sector going, because it is a fragile sector in any case, and I think about 50 per cent of the childcare settings have temporarily closed down and the reason they've given for closing down is because they haven't had enough children to make it viable to keep their settings going. So, it is a very worrying situation. They are heavily reliant on the fees that parents pay and, of course, with the social distancing and the lockdown, this has meant that we've had to discourage children from attending. So, that means the number of children they've had has been much reduced and it hasn't been viable for them to keep going, although obviously it's great that about half have stayed open so we have somewhere for the children of the critical workers and the vulnerable children to go. But, I absolutely agree with what you're saying, Siân, and we are looking for a solution, because we know it's vital not only for the children and their parents, but for the economy as well, that we do have that sector there, surviving after this is all over. So, I can assure you, we're working very hard, and I think Nicola's working day and night to try to achieve this.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And just finally from me, I'm very pleased that you are working on this, and I very much hope that we will see a support package that will reach everyone in the sector, because it's been weeks now since all of this started, and if there's still no light at the end of the tunnel for some of them, then that needs to be dealt with. But just to conclude, how effective has the provision been in general over this period in terms of providing support for key workers?
Julie Morgan AM: I think it's been crucial, because how would the majority of the key workers have been able to get to work and do all the wonderful things that they've been doing if it hadn't been for childcare for those who need it? And we were very pleased to introduce the coronavirus childcare assistance scheme, which means that critical workers and families with vulnerable children are able to have free access to childcare aged 0 to 5, and I believe that we are the only country in the UK that is providing that free service to the vulnerable children, and so—. I mean, that scheme has only really taken off now since Easter, so we don't have any particular statistics.
Nicola Edwards: I do have some early numbers, if you'd like me to announce them?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes, that would be very good.
Lynne Neagle AM: Very briefly.
Nicola Edwards: Yes. In terms of the provision in schools, we're looking at around 4,000 children a day in schools at the moment. In terms of the children accessing the coronavirus childcare assistance scheme, it has only been two weeks up and running really, so the numbers are quite low, but there were nearly 1,500 children accessing that childcare last week, and of those, just over 100 would fall within the definition of vulnerable children. So, it is picking up there; it was 900 children the week before that, so we are seeing some traction now that parents are aware that that support is there.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. And, can I just ask, in terms of the other vulnerable children, what assurance can you give that all the vulnerable children who need to keep in contact with social workers and other key workers are being provided with the necessary technology to do that? Is that happening in a uniform way?
Julie Morgan AM: Well, that is the intention—that everybody should have the opportunity to have the necessary technology, and certainly, that is what is intended.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, very, very briefly, one question on the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, please.
Suzy Davies AM: Just generally, have you had any feedback on the effects on the family courts and the execution of the—well, the child arrangement orders, the various versions of that?
Julie Morgan AM: Yes. In terms of the family courts, as you probably know, a lot of the hearings are going on virtually, but the hearings that are more complex are being postponed to be heard at a later date. So, that's one of the issues, really—that we may expect a lot of demand on the court service after this period has finished. And obviously, the president of the family division has issued guidance on compliance with family court child arrangement orders, which were his guidance, and obviously, this is directed at separated families subject to the family court, and that offers general advice to parents, recognising that the circumstances for each parent and each family will be different. And the Welsh Government has also provided guidance about staying at home and away from others. But of course, where parents have joint parental responsibility, as you know, the Government has said that children under 18 can be moved between the two households. With the other children, it's on a case-by-case basis, really, what actually happens. I have met with CAFCASS to see how their operations are going, and all the CAFCASS officials are not attending any courts at all; they're sending in any of their views virtually, but it appeared to be that there weren't any major issues arising.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, and we have definitely now come to the end of our time. So, can I thank the Ministers and officials for attending? We do recognise what an immensely pressurised time this is for Welsh Government, and we are very appreciative of having your time this afternoon, so thank you both to Ministers and officials. As usual, you will receive a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Diolch yn fawr.
Vaughan Gething AM: Diolch yn fawr, Chair.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content? Thank you very much. This is, of course, our last formal business of the National Assembly for Wales before we become the Senedd tomorrow, and it seems fitting that the National Assembly's last formal proceedings are focused on children and young people, and I'm sure that we would all agree that it is vital that they continue to be at the centre of the work of our Parliament going forward. We are now going to proceed in private.
Query:
What did Vaughan Gething think of the perinatal mental health service when discussing the long-term special care for the pregnant women?
Answer:
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Besides the crisis care, Vaughan Gething also claimed that they did not stop the perinatal mental health service either. However, there were still some problems. For example, because of the shut down of many public services, there might be not enough inpatient care for the pregnant, and less women were willing to resort to such service during the outbreak. Therefore, apart from providing enough inpatient care like the hospital beds, they would also pay attention to how to encourage the mothers to enjoy their service.
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va-sq-145_0
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: I dunno . {vocalsound} Throwing away my toothpick .
User Interface: Hi there .
Project Manager: Yo . Ow .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Nice user interface .
Project Manager: Yeah . What the {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah well , ja well let's just start .
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I've uh made a presentation uh but uh I'll open it on the Smartboard , so we can all see it .
Marketing: Right let's see it .
Project Manager: So it's in the project documents because that's what we can find here . Well {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Very nice . Well this is called the the the kick-off meeting . So uh {vocalsound} I'm the Project Manager , so I had to fill it in ,
Marketing: 'Kay .
Project Manager: and uh hmm . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Oh sorry . {vocalsound} And {gap} an uh a nice agenda . {vocalsound} Uh we'll do the opening and then uh we'll meet each other , what uh we already do , so , that's not uh very much trouble . I'll I'll show you the the tools we have here , so that we can all use them . Then uh we'll look at the project plan from uh Real Reaction .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We'll discuss about our first ideas about the project , and then uh we'll close the meeting , and then we can uh individually uh do our things and then uh we'll get back here . So {vocalsound} this the opening we'll uh {disfmarker} We have to uh design a new television remote control . You have heard that uh already I think , so .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um we want it to be original , so a nice uh a nice new design . Uh trendy , it's {vocalsound} also for young people , and we have to just uh make it uh modern . And uh friendly , so size does matter . And uh {disfmarker} Well it has to be a have the the right uh the right buttons on the right place , that kin those kind of things .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Other uh {disfmarker} There happen to be uh three stages . {gap} functional , conceptual , and d detailed design . Um so every time we we'll do some individual work , get meeting , talk about it , uh and then go into the next phase . That's just it . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} We have uh these two Smartboards . Um well as I just showed , there's a project management folder , a project document folder on the desktop . It just works exactly the same as a computer . You just uh click on the on the folder and you open the everything you you put in it with your laptop . So you can uh make uh {vocalsound} Words Excel , everything . Um and the w the r uh the rest uh also works the same so uh when you open a notepad you uh you just get your uh things , you can uh draw . This is a uh well a drawing board . {gap} you have a {disfmarker} these different uh functions on the board . You can see them there . So you have a a nice pen , and it's works just like a bal ball pen . {vocalsound} This is just a {gap} . I want to uh {disfmarker} Oh yeah . Of course w {vocalsound} doesn't work any more . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Maybe you should try to write on the on the big white uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes I will {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Does it ? Yeah . It works .
Project Manager: eraser {gap} so .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Wonderful .
Project Manager: It's fantas fantastic . We can uh uh well you can save a file . So if uh we draw we have to save everything . Don't throw anything away .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Uh just we can start a new one , and we just go on , and don't throw anything away .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Just uh let them all uh stand here . We can delete , but we don't do that . Um you can here select a pen , you can draw anything you want . It's a bit uh childish you have to write . It's not as fast as you w you know it , but it does work sometimes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well it's just like a normal uh paint .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So it's gone .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Alright , yep .
Project Manager: Well we are designers , so we have to have a a more uh a Smartboard . So that's fantastic . Um well this uh speaks for itself . We going to try it . So um we all uh are going to uh draw a nice animal on this board ,
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: not my idea . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Alright , your favourite animal ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes our your favourite . So um I'm to going to have to draw a kangaroo ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: but I'm going d I'm not going to . I'm just uh going to uh well draw a nice uh beast
Marketing: {vocalsound} Grizzly bear . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: w I dunno what I'm going to design .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh um {vocalsound} doesn't {disfmarker} oh .
Industrial Designer: I hope this was part of the assignment and not uh your uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , 'kay . Hmm ?
Industrial Designer: I hope this was part of the assignment and not uh your personal uh enjoyment .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I just said it's not my idea
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: but I am the Project Manager ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and officially this is my idea . {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I I I {vocalsound} I understand . Alright .
Marketing: We're kinda losing time , though .
Project Manager: what ?
Marketing: We're losing time , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ah {vocalsound} the first the first meeting is just a bit uh loose , loosen up , a bit uh meeting each other
Industrial Designer: {gap} so start {disfmarker}
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: {gap} well uh uh nice yeah . {vocalsound} Sh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep yes .
Project Manager: I hope our Industrial Designer does this better because uh this is uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Don't uh count on it .
Project Manager: No {vocalsound} {vocalsound} so a a few legs .
Marketing: Do we have to guess ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes yes
Marketing: {vocalsound} A hippo ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: guess . {vocalsound} Well I should make it an hippo now . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think it's a mouse or a rat .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No I don't think so .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh . Oh I know it .
Project Manager: Well what is it , huh ?
Industrial Designer: It's a hedgehog .
Marketing: I don't know how to call it .
Project Manager: Yeah
Marketing: A hedgehog ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} difficult English word . I didn't knew it myself {gap} . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Well I'm amazed uh about your uh drawing skills . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Our characteristics sum it up . Well it's uh very {vocalsound} uh painful
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} those kind of thing . So we can uh just uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We're going back and now uh our Industrial Designer can uh draw its uh most favourite animal .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I am the Industrial Designer .
Marketing: Alright . Thank you .
Project Manager: Huh .
Industrial Designer: Chief , I am the Industrial Designer .
Project Manager: Oh uh but this uh marketing designer .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} It's pr it resembles {vocalsound} the animal drawn by {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: It's {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: what kind of animal is that then ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker} can I say it ?
Marketing: Yeah sure .
Project Manager: Uh it {gap} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It's a rabbit . {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} Looks very nice , right ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: It looks amazing .
Project Manager: No no no . What are you going to do ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: We want to erase it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No no save it and start a new uh {disfmarker} save it and start a new black uh doc {gap} a blank document .
Industrial Designer: These are very impor {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yes .
Industrial Designer: These are very important documents , of course , uh these drawings , uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah well we have to save everything
Marketing: Yes uh right .
Project Manager: so now um the next one uh {disfmarker} {gap} and then save it and start an blank document .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Thanks .
Marketing: You go man .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . There's also different colours and different uh well pen widths uh the line the the thickness thickness .
Marketing: Alright .
Project Manager: So um well you should uh try it but uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I should have made mine a white rabbit . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well y y y you could have but uh {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: And he deliberately draws a animal we don't know the English word for .
Project Manager: It speaks for itself .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} What the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It looks like an uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: uh just a duck . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It looks like that beast from Sesame Street .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nice . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Big bird . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Is it a duck ?
Marketing: You're standing in front of it ,
Industrial Designer: It's it's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is it a plane ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: I can't see it . Alright , thank you . Yeah it's a bird , but what kind of bird ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It doesn't draw uh circles uh that easy uh .
Industrial Designer: Do we have to uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: You have to push harder .
Project Manager: Yeah just a bit a bit childish ,
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: a bit {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: But we have uh {vocalsound} do we have to name the specific species of the bird ?
Marketing: Release your anger .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh no I don't .
Industrial Designer: No ?
User Interface: It's just a bird .
Project Manager: Well uh save the document
Industrial Designer: Well wonderful .
Project Manager: and then uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And then a a new blank document for {gap} . {gap} uh will uh choose a new colour and a new pen width so w we can all see it .
User Interface: Here you go .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Why do I have to do the difficult tasks ?
Project Manager: No well first
Industrial Designer: Uh pen {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah that's {gap} .
Project Manager: And then you go to format I think {vocalsound} , and current colour {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh current colour .
Project Manager: you choose a new colour . {vocalsound} And a new pen width uh {gap} also format .
Industrial Designer: I like uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: oh they don't have pink . {vocalsound} Oh b oh {vocalsound} think this is uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's not like in paint . Line width .
Industrial Designer: Uh ? Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And you can choose a nice one .
Industrial Designer: Line width .
Project Manager: Width width .
User Interface: Width .
Project Manager: With each other .
Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound} {vocalsound} fifteen .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: And I can draw ?
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} So . Just a wa that's the way we do {gap}
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: it's quite easy .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Hmm . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's a pussy cat .
Marketing: It's a cat . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Oh Pussy . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh the line width is too thick , but oh well .
Project Manager: Well then you change it . And erase things .
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} What ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's a pig . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It smiles nicely .
Project Manager: Super pig . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Now {vocalsound} I have to change the line width . {vocalsound} Uh one {vocalsound} {gap} .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah yeah yeah
Industrial Designer: These are {gap} whiskers , you know .
Project Manager: we know . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Uh well I think it's obvious right now .
Project Manager: Yes alright . It's a cat . {vocalsound}
Marketing: No it looks great .
Industrial Designer: Miaow .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well if this isn't obvious {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well well um {disfmarker}
Marketing: Just save it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah save it {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} start a new blank document .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I'll save it {vocalsound} alright uh save . Uh yeah uh blank .
Project Manager: Yep . So that's uh what we're going to use when we uh need it .
Industrial Designer: Well I feel comfortable now .
Marketing: Oh great .
Project Manager: Well {vocalsound} it's terrific , eh ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Thanks for this exercise . I feel totally at ease .
Marketing: It's good for group spirit . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah that's it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It certainly is . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: We're one big happy family now . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah something like that .
Project Manager: Well then uh the serious uh stuff . We're we want to sell it at twenty five Euros internationally um so um but we dunno what exactly th i it is in dollars , but uh twenty five Euros . Our profit aim is , worldwide , fifty million Euros . So I didn't uh exactly uh calculate how much we have to sell .
Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} we want to keep it our costs at twelve and a half Euros so , keep uh that in mind when we uh talk about our uh materials an f and stuff , and uh marketing uh research .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Now then we all uh we can uh sit down and discuss uh what do we think about our current remote controls , first {gap} about design uh about uh aim in the market etcetera ?
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: Well uh we c we can sit down uh because uh presentation can wait . We can uh take notes {vocalsound} and uh {disfmarker} Well who has uh some uh remarks about the current uh remote controls ? Please ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Well I I didn't have to prepare anything about uh {disfmarker} {gap}
Project Manager: No uh I did . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it's not , it's it's not my task to uh talk about uh experience with current remote controls , but uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well uh just w we're uh four uh if we if we would just have one then {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think it's im it's important to uh look at uh the remote controls of our competitors .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Get the good points uh try to merge them into one universal remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah yeah .
Marketing: On our corporate site I saw uh a new D_V_D_ player uh we're gonna produce .
Project Manager: Yep . That's alright .
Marketing: Maybe it's important to make it compatible with the D_V_D_ player
Project Manager: That would be a nice idea , yes .
Marketing: so you can uh use your television and your D_V_D_ player with the same uh remote control .
Project Manager: Yep yep yep .
Marketing: Furthermore it's important to make it uh acceptable for the whole world , for different cultures , maybe , because we want to we want to {gap} well fifty million ?
Project Manager: Yes fifty million is our aim to a profit , so .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Yeah yeah
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so a lot of people have to be able to use it .
Industrial Designer: No but uh the b the buttons have to uh have to have uh international recognisable buttons and uh
Marketing: So {disfmarker}
User Interface: Easy to learn .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah that's right .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and numbers and uh that every culture in uh , yeah , people in every country can recognise .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: I'll make uh notes and then uh maybe uh {disfmarker} well I'll put it in the project uh folder when I'm done uh just now .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I also think we should not add too many buttons .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: No that's right .
User Interface: Modern day uh remotes have {vocalsound} too much buttons I think .
Project Manager: Y y you don't use uh the half of them that's that's {gap}
User Interface: Precisely .
Project Manager: culture uh international .
Marketing: Maybe we could make one button to switch between D_V_D_ player and T_V_
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: and make the other buttons uh multi-functional or something .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah indeed .
Industrial Designer: Yeah so it doesn't uh become too complicated with too much buttons and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah right .
Project Manager: Yep , and maybe we do uh {vocalsound} we even have uh more than just a D_V_D_ player . Don't we have uh other uh ou
User Interface: Yeah we should make it compatible perhaps with everything we use , we uh we make ?
Project Manager: Uh .
Industrial Designer: And stereo uh s uh audio installations .
Project Manager: We also uh just uh released a T_F_T_ uh thing I saw .
Marketing: Yeah so but th that's kind kind of standard T_ television so it also works on that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yep .
User Interface: And I think the people who who will buy our uh remote already have some experience with remotes . So we can keep that in mind .
Industrial Designer: Most people do , yeah .
Project Manager: Well yeah .
Industrial Designer: It doesn't {gap}
Project Manager: It doesn't have to be , but we can .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: it doesn't have to be {disfmarker}
User Interface: W well it's a n it's a new remote and you don't buy a remote if you don't have anything to uh to control with it .
Project Manager: Well except if we deliver it together with our D_V_D_ .
Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah alright , but {disfmarker}
Marketing: We need to to keep it consistent with other d uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah because we look at competitors
Industrial Designer: Well .
Project Manager: and w if we pick up the good things about that and give it a nice design {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: Yeah but it's {disfmarker} it has to be useable .
Industrial Designer: It has to be different and familiar at the same time .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: we could use another form or shape or colour , that kind of things .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: {gap} yeah the shape will will have to be recognised . I thought about uh like most uh remote controls uh are uh a long box shaped thing {gap}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: you can make it uh triangle shaped ,
User Interface: Well we we could make more more oval or something , and and {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but that's not uh very recognisable .
Marketing: {vocalsound} No .
Project Manager: Oo
Industrial Designer: Oval ?
Project Manager: N we can use uh it as a as a game pad .
User Interface: Yeah or so
Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So {vocalsound} one hand has the beer , so the other hand uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Well yeah it's new . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {gap} . Not with two hands . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah , right .
User Interface: {gap} but young people want something different
Marketing: No {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: and it is {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well i we already uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah but it's quite important that it fits .
Project Manager: one of our aims is that it has to be original and trendy so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Oh but it ha it has to be m
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah . But you still have to know it's a remote and not another {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well there has been done a lot of researches about remotes uh we have to {disfmarker} we can imagine uh
User Interface: Yeah alright .
Project Manager: because it's a long time uh on the market . So the the form will have {vocalsound} been uh tested out so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah so the long box uh shaped thing must be uh , yeah , useful
Project Manager: Yes . Well {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: or else uh they would have been ano another shape .
Project Manager: for me personally I have a {vocalsound} a lot of remotes uh at home but {vocalsound} those ones that have a a round ending and uh well uh just an uh square uh middle {vocalsound} I don't like to use them . I have uh have to {disfmarker} it has to fit my hands .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: When it falls over it and I just have {disfmarker} and then the button that I use most has to be here .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah
Marketing: It shouldn't be boxy .
Industrial Designer: a lo {gap} the long box shape yeah . You have to {vocalsound} use one hand .
Project Manager: It f it fits your hands and then you just push the button that you use most with {gap} thumb .
Marketing: Nah {disfmarker} I don't agree with the long box uh shape {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Why not ?
Marketing: it it has to be custom made for the hand .
User Interface: Yeah it doesn't fit {gap} .
Project Manager: Tho tho those new D_V_D_ players on the market do have those .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: But it does fit in the hand if you hold it like this , and you can make it another shape ,
Marketing: Yeah but if you shape it {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but then you have {disfmarker}
User Interface: No if y if you look at new Phillips uh D_V_D_ {gap} with their uh remotes {vocalsound} pl players {vocalsound} they they are the new remotes aren't box shaped .
Marketing: If {disfmarker}
Project Manager: D_V_D_ players . Yes . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: W no w what else ?
Marketing: No that's ol old fashioned .
Industrial Designer: I di
User Interface: Well {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah well but uh what what what do you suggest then ?
User Interface: Yes uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: I can imagine that us
User Interface: Well {vocalsound} most of {gap} of them are are somewhat thicker at the end , and get um yeah thinner towards the uh the other end .
Marketing: Yeah right . It fits in your palms .
Industrial Designer: Hmm . Well {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: but it's still then uh the the long box , uh but then with some uh round uh {vocalsound} round forms in it to fit your hand ,
User Interface: Yeah it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm ?
Project Manager: A it h it has it it has a that's tha th th shape that it fits your hand .
Marketing: Um .
Industrial Designer: but it's it's still {disfmarker} Yeah yeah al alright
Project Manager: That's {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but but it's still it's still {gap} sort of box , yeah .
Marketing: {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah yea
Industrial Designer: It it has round forms
Marketing: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but it in the end it's still the box , so that's what I mean .
Marketing: Yeah but it has it has to fit your hand .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah I understand , but {disfmarker} no no I don't mean an entire box like completely square
Marketing: It shouldn't be too boxy , you know .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: It's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} No no no .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: but a also with round edges of course ,
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: but in in in at the end it's still this long {vocalsound} box shape with convenient uh round uh shapes uh {vocalsound} to fit .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right maybe something like this
Industrial Designer: Yeah yes {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} and then a button here to switch between {vocalsound} different systems like D_V_D_ player
Industrial Designer: I thought about something like that . Yeah .
Marketing: and so you can {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: A big recognisable button on top or something .
Marketing: Yeah right , and I do think we have to keep this kind of idea with the with the numbers and {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: We have five minutes left .
Industrial Designer: The buttons should uh also be not too small , not too big , of course ,
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes
Industrial Designer: and uh n uh uh not too close uh together .
Project Manager: uh that's {vocalsound} yep .
Marketing: But it should be possible to to um make it ap apparent that there are two functions for every button .
Project Manager: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
Marketing: So there has to be some space between the buttons .
Industrial Designer: Yeah of course uh to uh to uh to have icons to explain the different functions .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah right right ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: and maybe we should use colours .
User Interface: Yeah {gap} maybe we can um just like on cell phones those um well {gap} {vocalsound} you can you can put on on them ,
Industrial Designer: Colours , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Ha .
User Interface: and so you can customise your uh your own remote with different colours or or special paint jobs {vocalsound}
Marketing: That's kinda trendy . Yeah right .
Project Manager: Sound nice . Yes .
User Interface: I dunno but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think we have to talk also about uh the the materials for um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well it's just uh about our first ideas now
User Interface: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: so I think individually we'll have to uh come up with ideas for the next meeting about these materials and markets etcetera .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Right . But {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes ?
Industrial Designer: Already thought about something tha {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} I think it's uh it's important to uh notate all the the decisions that we make ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: so we {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well thirty minutes we have . So um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: This is about uh what we are going to uh do uh . You'll get specific instructions when you're back in your room so uh it's uh logical uh . I think .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} No problem .
Project Manager: Oh and uh that's uh that's all . So we'll just get a notice that the the meeting is uh over .
Industrial Designer: Yeah now we can still talk about the material ,
Project Manager: Yeah yes say .
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: we have some some minutes left uh {gap} I w wrote down uh that the case should be plastic of course , hard plastic , the buttons should be uh rubbery I think uh .
Marketing: Yeah . Yeah it shouldn't be too heavy .
User Interface: {gap} .
Project Manager: Well I have had remotes that um they had uh the function of the buttons was about uh uh a layer over the buttons
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: No n n
Project Manager: and when I've had use it much it was gone . So it has to be made in the buttons I think .
User Interface: Yeah that's bad , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah .
Project Manager: It has to uh not be loose .
User Interface: Yeah that's important {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Alright . And of course there are several electrical cables in it to uh {vocalsound} to connect things uh to each other .
Project Manager: Yeah . Is there an a universal uh universal way of um transmitting from the remote to the television so it's all about uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I think so .
Marketing: Yeah it's univ yeah yeah yeah .
Industrial Designer: It's a a common stan standard way {gap}
Project Manager: It's not that in China it's different ?
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: infrared beams an infrared beam I think {gap} .
Project Manager: Yeah . But y you can have uh of course different between D_V_D_s and televisions and between {disfmarker}
Marketing: And you can use {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It it's a we we make an a universal remote so it ha has to work with uh all kinds of brands and things .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . But our T_V_s are mostly made in China and that sort of country , so {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Probably yes .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: China rules . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And have {disfmarker} well yeah I've wrote something down about how it works . {vocalsound} The user presses a button and with an infrared beam it signals the television set accordingly ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: But are {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: but that's pretty obvious , I think . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Are we going w uh with the front uh fronts uh idea ?
Project Manager: Well I think uh w we can look into that in the in the next uh thirty minutes .
Marketing: I think {vocalsound} we should make it universal
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: and you can always use a front front on it , you know ? You can use it {vocalsound} just plain
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: {gap} .
Marketing: but you can {vocalsound} {disfmarker} To make it more trendy .
Project Manager: Well j just y you get a n a normal front with it , but you can change them uh when you buy the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Right .
User Interface: Yes . Yes .
Marketing: Right .
Project Manager: And we should uh dispatch those kind of fronts fronts a a around the world so uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: Well you can make profit with them , and it's {vocalsound} a way to make them trendy .
Project Manager: Well th those fifty million don't uh don't se sells itself {vocalsound} so we have to uh make uh some extra effort like fronts uh .
Industrial Designer: Well but th but the standard front will be uh just grey or something
User Interface: Yeah alright {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Yeah right .
User Interface: Yeah normal .
Industrial Designer: uh b a simple colour not not very flashy .
Project Manager: Yes . Yeah well it has to it h it has to fit the the te television and D_V_D_ set we are going to sell ,
User Interface: No a colour everyone accepts .
Project Manager: so if they are uh black and black black and silver we'll make them black and silver so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Pink television sets {vocalsound} pink remote , {gap} .
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: Yeah yeah yeah .
User Interface: Yeah . {gap} standard .
Marketing: But people of often don't like bright colours or something .
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: We have to make it grey or s or black .
User Interface: Well young people s li
Marketing: Yeah but then you can use {vocalsound} a a front .
User Interface: Yeah yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I must not forget my pen the next time . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well if if you {disfmarker} yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: If you have a a a television room for little children and you make a if if you buy a a pink front they'll they'll love it . I think .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah that's right .
Project Manager: But that's uh marketing uh research you can uh you can ask uh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah or a t Teletubby front . {vocalsound} Yeah yeah yeah . I will investigate .
Project Manager: Yes . {vocalsound} Well our user interface you can uh maybe uh {gap} I don't know what your specific instructions will be , but uh probably about uh the precision of the buttons and and those kind of things and what buttons will have to be on the uh remote . And you will look into the technical design and um form , I think .
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah also the the look and feel uh of the the remote's also my task , yeah .
Project Manager: Or something like that . Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: What's the uh url or the website 'cause I didn't get {disfmarker}
Marketing: Right .
Industrial Designer: Yeah I uh w was wondering that too .
Project Manager: Euro ?
Industrial Designer: Y you went to the company website {gap} .
Marketing: It's {disfmarker} Yeah yeah yeah just if you start up your Internet Explorer {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Well it it it's {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: if you uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: It's the the the start uh starting page uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh oh right oh well I didn't uh use it {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Finish meeting now . Oh alright . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well uh we're going to back uh back into our rooms so {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yes .
Marketing: Well that's great .
User Interface: Next meeting is in {disfmarker}
Project Manager: In thirty minutes , but uh I think it will be {disfmarker} you will be warned uh through your laptop uh to get over here .
User Interface: Thirty minutes .
Marketing: Thirty minutes .
User Interface: Yeah alright it's it's handy to know {gap} {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'll have to restore my uh my desktop uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Very handy to know .
Marketing: {vocalsound} It's totally broken . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: because uh {vocalsound} it's it's the half of the normal size . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Right see you in half an hour then .
Project Manager: Oh right , oh .
User Interface: Oh . {vocalsound} Goodbye . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ma {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: W
Marketing: Oh {disfmarker}
User Interface: S
Project Manager: W {vocalsound} that was a nice meeting .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} .
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Right uh see you in thirty minutes then . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah , see you . {vocalsound}
Query:
How does the product manager want to achieve the expected profit when discussing the group's plan of their marketing strategy?
Answer:
|
The project manager wants to sell the remote internationally for 25 euros and keep its cost under 12.50 euros to meet the global profit target of 50 million euros. But project managers don't calculate exactly how much they want to sell.
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| 36,718
| 36,720
| 36,853
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... [The rest of the transcript is omitted]
|
va-gq-166
|
va-gq-166_0
|
You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Professor B: I think for two years we were two months , uh , away from being done .
PhD A: And what was that , Morgan ? What project ?
Professor B: Uh , the , uh , TORRENT chip .
PhD A: Oh .
Professor B: Yeah . We were two {disfmarker} we were {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Uh , uh , we went through it {disfmarker} Jim and I went through old emails at one point and {disfmarker} and for two years there was this thing saying , yeah , we 're {disfmarker} we 're two months away from being done . It was very {disfmarker} very believable schedules , too . I mean , we went through and {disfmarker} with the schedules {disfmarker} and we {disfmarker}
PhD A: It was true for two years .
Professor B: Yeah . Oh , yeah . It was very true .
PhD A: So , should we just do the same kind of deal where we {pause} go around and do , uh , status report {pause} kind of things ? OK . And I guess when Sunil gets here he can do his last or something . So .
Professor B: Yeah . So we {pause} probably should wait for him to come before we do his .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: OK . That 's a good idea .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad F: OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: Any objection ? Do y OK , M
Professor B: All in favor
PhD A: Do you want to start , Morgan ? Do you have anything , or {disfmarker} ?
Professor B: Uh , I don't do anything . I {disfmarker} No , I mean , I {disfmarker} I 'm involved in discussions with {disfmarker} with people about what they 're doing , but I think they 're {disfmarker} since they 're here , they can talk about it themselves .
Grad F: OK . So should I go so that , uh ,
PhD A: Yeah . Why don't you go ahead , Barry ?
Grad F: you 're gonna talk about Aurora stuff , per se ?
PhD A: OK .
Grad F: OK . Um . Well , this past week I 've just been , uh , getting down and dirty into writing my {disfmarker} my proposal . So , um {disfmarker} Mmm . I just finished a section on , uh {disfmarker} on talking about these intermediate categories that I want to classify , um , as a {disfmarker} as a middle step . And , um , I hope to {disfmarker} hope to get this , um {disfmarker} a full rough draft done by , uh , Monday so I can give it to Morgan .
PhD A: When is your , uh , meeting ?
Grad F: Um , my meeting
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad F: with , uh {disfmarker} ? Oh , oh , you mean the {disfmarker} the quals .
PhD A: The quals . Yeah .
Grad F: Uh , the quals are happening in July twenty - fifth .
PhD A: Oh . Soon .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD A: Uh - huh .
Grad F: D - Day .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad F: Uh - huh .
PhD A: So , is the idea you 're going to do this paper and then you pass it out to everybody ahead of time and {disfmarker} ?
Grad F: Right , right . So , y you write up a proposal , and give it to people ahead of time , and you have a short presentation . And , um , and then , um {disfmarker} then everybody asks you questions .
PhD A: Hmm .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD A: I remember now .
Grad F: Yep . So , um .
PhD A: Have you d ? I was just gonna ask , do you want to say any {disfmarker} a little bit about it ,
Grad F: Y s
PhD A: or {disfmarker} ? Mmm .
Grad F: Oh . Uh , a little bit about {disfmarker} ?
PhD A: Wh - what you 're {disfmarker} what you 're gonna {disfmarker} You said {disfmarker} you were talking about the , uh , particular features that you were looking at ,
Grad F: Oh , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}
PhD A: or {disfmarker}
Grad F: Right . Well , I was , um , I think one of the perplexing problems is , um , for a while I was thinking that I had to come up with a complete set of intermediate features {disfmarker} in intermediate categories to {disfmarker} to classify right away . But what I 'm thinking now is , I would start with {disfmarker} with a reasonable set . Something {disfmarker} something like , um , um {disfmarker} like , uh , re regular phonetic features , just to {disfmarker} just to start off that way . And do some phone recognition . Um , build a system that , uh , classifies these , um {disfmarker} these feat uh , these intermediate categories using , uh , multi - band techniques . Combine them and do phon phoneme recognition . Look at {disfmarker} then I would look at the errors produced in the phoneme recognition and say , OK , well , I could probably reduce the errors if I included this extra feature or this extra intermediate category . That would {disfmarker} that would reduce certain confusions over other confusions . And then {disfmarker} and then {vocalsound} reiterate . Um , build the intermediate classifiers . Uh , do phoneme recognition . Look at the errors . And then postulate new {disfmarker} or remove , um , intermediate categories . And then do it again .
PhD A: So you 're gonna use TIMIT ?
Grad F: Um , for that {disfmarker} for that part of the {disfmarker} the process , yeah , I would use TIMIT .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: And , um , then {disfmarker} after {disfmarker} after , uh , um , doing TIMIT . Right ?
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Um , that 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that 's , um {disfmarker} that 's just the ph the phone recognition task .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad F: Uh , I wanted to take a look at , um , things that I could model within word . So , I would mov I would then shift the focus to , um , something like Schw - Switchboard , uh , where I 'd {disfmarker} I would be able to , um {disfmarker} to model , um , intermediate categories that span across phonemes ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: not just within the phonemes , themselves , um , and then do the same process there , um , on {disfmarker} on a large vocabulary task like Switchboard . Uh , and for that {disfmarker} for that part I would {disfmarker} I 'd use the SRI recognizer since it 's already set up for {disfmarker} for Switchboard . And I 'd run some {disfmarker} some sort of tandem - style processing with , uh , my intermediate classifiers .
PhD A: Oh . So that 's why you were interested in getting your own features into the SRI files .
Grad F: Yeah . That 's why I {disfmarker} I was asking about that .
PhD A: Yeah . Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah . Um , and I guess that 's {disfmarker} that 's it . Any {disfmarker} any questions ?
PhD A: Sounds good . So you just have a few more weeks , huh ?
Grad F: Um , yeah . A few more .
PhD A: It 's about a month from now ?
Grad F: It 's a {disfmarker} it 's a month and {disfmarker} and a week .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD A: So , uh , you want to go next , Dave ? And we 'll do {disfmarker}
Grad E: Oh . OK , sure . So , um , last week I finally got results from the SRI system about this mean subtraction approach . And , um , we {disfmarker} we got an improvement , uh , in word error rate , training on the TI - digits data set and testing on Meeting Recorder digits of , um , {vocalsound} six percent to four point five percent , um , on the n on the far - mike data using PZM F , but , um , the near - mike performance worsened , um , from one point two percent to two point four percent . And , um , wh why would that be , um , {vocalsound} considering that we actually got an improvement in near - mike performance using HTK ? And so , uh , with some input from , uh , Andreas , I have a theory in two parts . Um , first of all HTK {disfmarker} sorry , SR - the SRI system is doing channel adaptation , and so HTK wasn't . Um , so this , um {disfmarker} This mean subtraction approach will do a kind of channel {pause} normalization and so that might have given the HTK use of it a boost that wouldn't have been applied in the SRI case . And also , um , the {disfmarker} Andreas pointed out the SRI system is using more parameters . It 's got finer - grained acoustic models . So those finer - grained acoustic models could be more sensitive to the artifacts {pause} in the re - synthesized audio . Um . And me and Barry were listening to the re - synthesized audio and sometimes it seems like you get of a bit of an echo of speech in the background . And so that seems like it could be difficult for training , cuz you could have {pause} different phones {pause} lined up with a different foreground phone , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} depending on {pause} the timing of the echo . So , um , I 'm gonna try training on a larger data set , and then , eh , the system will have seen more examples o of these artifacts and hopefully will be more robust to them . So I 'm planning to use the Macrophone set of , um , read speech , and , um {disfmarker} Hmm .
Professor B: I had another thought just now , which is , uh , remember we were talking before about {disfmarker} we were talking in our meeting about , uh , this stuff that {disfmarker} some of the other stuff that Avendano did , where they were , um , getting rid of low - energy {pause} sections ? Um , uh , if you {disfmarker} if you did a high - pass filtering , as Hirsch did in {pause} late eighties to reduce some of the effects of reverberation , uh , uh , Avendano and Hermansky were arguing that , uh , perhaps one of the reasons for that working was ma may not have even been the filtering so much but the fact that when you filter a {disfmarker} an all - positive power spectrum you get some negative values , and you gotta figure out what to do with them if you 're gonna continue treating this as a power spectrum . So , what {disfmarker} what Hirsch did was , uh , set them to zero {disfmarker} set the negative values to zero . So if you imagine a {disfmarker} a waveform that 's all positive , which is the time trajectory of energy , um , and , uh , shifting it downwards , and then getting rid of the negative parts , that 's essentially throwing away the low - energy things . And it 's the low - energy parts of the speech where the reverberation is most audible . You know , you have the reverberation from higher - energy things showing up in {disfmarker} So in this case you have some artificially imposed {pause} reverberation - like thing . I mean , you 're getting rid of some of the other effects of reverberation , but because you have these non - causal windows , you 're getting these funny things coming in , uh , at n And , um , what if you did {disfmarker} ? I mean , there 's nothing to say that the {disfmarker} the processing for this re - synthesis has to be restricted to trying to get it back to the original , according to some equation . I mean , you also could , uh , just try to make it nicer .
Grad E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: And one of the things you could do is , you could do some sort of VAD - like thing
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and you actually could take very low - energy sections and set them to some {disfmarker} some , uh , very low or {disfmarker} or near zero {pause} value . I mean , uh , I 'm just saying if in fact it turns out that {disfmarker} that these echoes that you 're hearing are , uh {disfmarker}
Grad E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: or pre - echoes , whichever they are {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} are , uh , part of what 's causing the problem , you actually could get rid of them .
Grad E: Uh - huh .
Professor B: Be pretty simple . I mean , you do it in a pretty conservative way
Grad E: OK .
Professor B: so that if you made a mistake you were more likely to {pause} keep in an echo than to throw out speech .
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD G: Um , what is the reverberation time {pause} like {pause} there ?
Grad E: In thi in this room ? Uh {disfmarker}
PhD G: On , uh , the {disfmarker} the one what {disfmarker} the s in the speech that you are {disfmarker} you are using like ?
Grad E: Y Yeah . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know .
Professor B: So , it 's this room .
PhD G: It 's , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: It 's {disfmarker} it 's this room .
PhD G: Oh , this room ?
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
PhD G: OK .
Professor B: so it 's {disfmarker} these are just microphone {disfmarker} this micro close microphone and a distant microphone , he 's doing these different tests on .
Grad F: Oh .
Professor B: Uh , we should do a measurement in here . I g think we never have . I think it 's {disfmarker} I would guess , uh , point seven , point eight seconds f uh , R T
Grad F: Hmm !
Professor B: something like that ? But it 's {disfmarker} you know , it 's this room .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So .
PhD G: OK . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Uh . But the other thing is , he 's putting in {disfmarker} w I was using the word " reverberation " in two ways . He 's also putting in , uh , a {disfmarker} he 's taking out some reverberation , but he 's putting in something , because he has {pause} averages over multiple windows stretching out to twelve seconds , which are then being subtracted from the speech . And since , you know , what you subtract , sometimes you 'll be {disfmarker} you 'll be subtracting from some larger number and sometimes you won't . And {disfmarker}
PhD G: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So you can end up with some components in it that are affected by things that are seconds away . Uh , and if it 's a low {pause} energy compo portion , you might actually hear some {pause} funny things .
PhD G: Yeah .
Grad E: O o one thing , um , I noticed is that , um , the mean subtraction seems to make the PZM signals louder after they 've been re - synthesized . So I was wondering , is it possible that one reason it helped with the Aurora baseline system is {pause} just as a kind of gain control ? Cuz some of the PZM signals sound pretty quiet if you don't amplify them .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . I don't see why {disfmarker} why your signal is louder after processing , because yo
Grad E: Yeah . I don't know why - y , uh , either .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: I don't think just multiplying the signal by two would have any effect .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Oh , OK .
Professor B: Yeah . I mean , I think if you really have louder signals , what you mean is that you have {pause} better signal - to - noise ratio .
PhD C: Well , well {disfmarker}
Professor B: So if what you 're doing is improving the signal - to - noise ratio , then it would be better .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: But just it being bigger if {disfmarker} with the same signal - to - noise ratio {disfmarker}
Grad E: It w i i it wouldn't affect things .
Professor B: No .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad E: OK .
PhD C: Well , the system is {disfmarker} use {pause} the absolute energy , so it 's a little bit dependent on {disfmarker} on the {pause} signal level . But , not so much , I guess .
Professor B: Well , yeah . But it 's trained and tested on the same thing .
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor B: So if the {disfmarker} if the {disfmarker} if you change {vocalsound} in both training and test , the absolute level by a factor of two , it will n have no effect .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD A: Did you add {pause} this data to the training set , for the Aurora ? Or you just tested on this ?
Grad E: Uh {disfmarker} Um . Did I w what ?
PhD A: Well , Morgan was just saying that , uh , as long as you do it in both training and testing , it shouldn't have any effect .
Grad E: Sorry ? Yeah .
PhD A: But I {disfmarker} I was {pause} sort of under the impression that you just tested with this data .
Grad E: I {disfmarker} I b
PhD A: You didn't {pause} train it also .
Grad E: I {disfmarker} Right . I trained on clean TI - digits . I {disfmarker} I did the mean subtraction on clean TI - digits . But I didn't {disfmarker} I 'm not sure if it made the clean ti TI - digits any louder .
Professor B: Oh , I see .
Grad E: I only remember noticing it made the , um , PZM signal louder .
Professor B: OK . Well , I don't understand then . Yeah .
Grad E: Huh . I don't know . If it 's {disfmarker} if it 's {disfmarker} like , if it 's trying to find a {disfmarker} a reverberation filter , it could be that this reverberation filter is making things quieter . And then if you take it out {disfmarker} that taking it out makes things louder . I mean .
Professor B: Uh , no . I mean , {vocalsound} uh , there 's {disfmarker} there 's nothing inherent about removing {disfmarker} if you 're really removing ,
Grad E: Nuh - huh .
Professor B: uh , r uh , then I don't {pause} see how that would make it louder .
Grad E: The mean . OK . Yeah , I see .
Professor B: So it might be just some {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah . OK . So I should maybe listen to that stuff again .
Professor B: Yeah . It might just be some artifact of the processing that {disfmarker} that , uh , if you 're {disfmarker} Uh , yeah . I don't know .
Grad E: Oh . OK .
PhD A: I wonder if there could be something like , uh {disfmarker} for s for the PZM data ,
PhD C: Eh
PhD A: uh , you know , if occasionally , uh , somebody hits the table or something , you could get a spike . Uh . I 'm just wondering if there 's something about the , um {disfmarker} you know , doing the mean normalization where , uh , it {disfmarker} it could cause {pause} you to have better signal - to - noise ratio . Um .
Professor B: Well , you know , there is this . Wait a minute . It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} i maybe {disfmarker} i If , um {disfmarker} Subtracting the {disfmarker} the mean log spectrum is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is like dividing by the spectrum . So , depending what you divide by , if your {disfmarker} if s your estimate is off and sometimes you 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're getting a small number , you could make it bigger .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's just a {disfmarker} a question of {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} It {disfmarker} it could be that there 's some normalization that 's missing , or something to make it {disfmarker}
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Uh , y you 'd think it shouldn't be larger , but maybe in practice it is . That 's something to think about .
Grad E: Hmm .
Professor B: I don't know .
PhD C: I had a question about the system {disfmarker} the SRI system . So , {vocalsound} you trained it on TI - digits ? But except this , it 's exactly the same system as the one that was tested before and that was trained on {pause} Macrophone . Right ? So on TI - digits it gives you one point two percent error rate and on Macrophone it 's still O point eight . Uh , but is it {pause} exactly the same system ?
Grad E: Uh . I think so .
PhD C: Hmm .
Grad E: If you 're talking about the Macrophone results that Andreas had about , um , a week and a half ago , I think it 's the same system .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . So you use VTL - uh , vocal tract length normalization and , um , like MLLR transformations also ,
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
Professor B: I 'm sorry , was his point eight percent , er , a {disfmarker} a result on testing on Macrophone or {disfmarker} or training ?
PhD C: all that stuff .
Grad E: That 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: It was {pause} training on Macrophone and testing {disfmarker} yeah , on {disfmarker} on meeting digits .
Professor B: Oh . So that was done already . So we were {disfmarker} Uh , and it 's point eight ? OK .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I 've just been text {comment} testing the new {pause} Aurora front - end with {disfmarker} well , Aurora system actually {disfmarker} so front - end and HTK , um , acoustic models on the meeting digits and it 's a little bit better than the previous system . We have {disfmarker} I have two point seven percent error rate . And before with the system that was proposed , it 's what ? It was three point nine . So .
Professor B: Oh , that 's a lot better .
PhD C: We are getting better .
Professor B: So , what {disfmarker} w ?
PhD C: And {disfmarker}
PhD G: With the {disfmarker} with the HTK back - end ? What we have for Aurora ?
PhD C: Yeah . Two point seven .
PhD G: I know in the meeting , like {disfmarker}
PhD C: On the meeting we have two point seven .
PhD G: Right . Oh .
Grad F: That 's with the new IIR filters ?
PhD C: Uh . Yeah , yeah . So , yeah ,
Grad F: OK .
PhD C: we have {pause} the new LDA filters , and {disfmarker} I think , maybe {disfmarker} I didn't look , but one thing that makes a difference is this DC offset compensation . Uh , eh {disfmarker} Do y did you have a look at {disfmarker} at the meet uh , meeting digits , if they have a DC component , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad E: I {disfmarker} I didn't . No .
PhD C: Oh .
Professor B: Hmm .
PhD G: No . The DC component could be negligible . I mean , if you are {pause} recording it through a mike . I mean , any {disfmarker} all of the mikes have the DC removal {disfmarker} some capacitor sitting right in {pause} that bias it .
Professor B: Yeah . But this {disfmarker} uh , uh , uh , no . Because , uh , there 's a sample and hold in the A - toD. And these period these typically do have a DC offset .
PhD G: Oh , OK .
Professor B: And {disfmarker} and they can be surprisingly large . It depends on the electronics .
PhD G: Oh , so it is the digital {disfmarker} OK . It 's the A - toD that introduces the DC in .
Professor B: Yeah . The microphone isn't gonna pass any DC .
PhD G: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but ,
PhD G: OK .
Professor B: typi you know , unless {disfmarker} Actually , there are {pause} instrumentation mikes that {disfmarker} that do pass {disfmarker} go down to DC . But {disfmarker} but ,
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: uh , no , it 's the electronics . And they {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: then there 's amplification afterwards . And you can get , I think it was {disfmarker} I think it was in the {pause} Wall Street Journal data that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} I can't remember , one of the DARPA things . There was this big DC - DC offset
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: we didn't {disfmarker} we didn't know about for a while , while we were {pause} messing with it . And we were getting these terrible results . And then we were talking to somebody and they said , " Oh , yeah . Didn't you know ? Everybody knows that . There 's all this DC offset in th " So , yes . You can have DC offset in the data .
PhD G: Oh , OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD G: OK .
PhD A: So was that {disfmarker} was that everything , Dave ?
Grad E: Oh . And I also , um , did some experiments {pause} about normalizing the phase . Um . So I c I came up with a web page that people can take a look at . And , um , the interesting thing that I tried was , um , Adam and Morgan had this idea , um , since my original attempts to , um , take the mean of the phase spectra over time and normalize using that , by subtracting that off , didn't work . Um , so , well , that we thought that might be due to , um , problems with , um , the arithmetic of phases . They {disfmarker} they add in this modulo two pi way and , um , there 's reason to believe that that approach of taking the mean of the phase spectrum wasn't really {pause} mathematically correct . So , {vocalsound} what I did instead is I {vocalsound} took the mean of the FFT spectrum without taking the log or anything , and then I took the phase of that , and I subtracted that phase {pause} off to normalize . But that , um , didn't work either .
Professor B: See , we have a different interpretation of this . He says it doesn't work . I said , I think it works magnificently , but just not for the task we intended . Uh , it gets rid of the speech .
PhD A: What does it leave ?
Grad F: Uh , gets rid of the speech .
Professor B: Uh , it leaves {disfmarker} you know , it leaves the junk . I mean , I {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's tremendous .
Grad F: Oh , wow .
Professor B: You see , all he has to do is go back and reverse what he did before , and he 's really got something .
PhD A: Well , could you take what was left over and then subtract that ?
Professor B: Ex - exactly . Yeah , you got it .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor B: So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a general rule .
PhD G: Oh , it 's {disfmarker}
Professor B: Just listen very carefully to what I say and do the opposite . Including what I just said .
Grad E: And , yeah , that 's everything .
PhD A: All set ? Do you want to go , Stephane ?
PhD C: Um . Yeah . Maybe , concerning these d still , these meeting digits . I 'm more interested in trying to figure out what 's still the difference between the SRI system and the Aurora system . And {disfmarker} Um . Yeah . So , I think I will maybe train , like , gender - dependent models , because {pause} this is also one big difference between {pause} the two systems . Um , the other differences were {pause} the fact that maybe the acoustic models of the SRI are more {disfmarker} SRI system are more complex . But , uh , Chuck , you did some experiments with this and
PhD A: It didn't seem to help in the HTK system .
PhD C: it was hard t to {disfmarker} to have some exper some improvement with this . Um .
Professor B: Well , it sounds like they also have {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he 's saying they have all these , uh , uh , different kinds of adaptation .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: You know , they have channel adaptation . They have speaker adaptation .
PhD C: Yeah . Right .
PhD A: Well , there 's also the normalization .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD A: Like they do , um {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how they would do it when they 're working with the digits ,
PhD C: The vocal tr
PhD A: but , like , in the Switchboard data , there 's , um {disfmarker} conversation - side normalization for the {pause} non - C - zero components ,
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah . This is another difference . Their normalization works like on {disfmarker} on the utterance levels .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: But we have to do it {disfmarker} We have a system that does it on - line .
PhD A: Right .
PhD C: So , it might be {disfmarker} it might be better with {disfmarker} it might be worse if the {pause} channel is constant ,
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: or {disfmarker} Nnn .
PhD G: And the acoustic models are like - k triphone models or {disfmarker} or is it the whole word ?
PhD C: SRI {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's tr
Grad F: SRI .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . I guess it 's triphones .
PhD G: It 's triphone .
Professor B: I think it 's probably more than that .
PhD C: Huh .
Professor B: I mean , so they {disfmarker} they have {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I thin think they use these , uh , uh , genone things . So there 's {disfmarker} there 's these kind of , uh , uh , pooled models and {disfmarker} and they can go out to all sorts of dependencies .
PhD G: Oh . It 's like the tied state .
Professor B: So .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: They have tied states and I think {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't real I 'm talk I 'm just guessing here . But I think {disfmarker} I think they {disfmarker} they don't just have triphones .
PhD G: OK .
Professor B: I think they have a range of {disfmarker} of , uh , dependencies .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Hmm .
PhD C: And {disfmarker} Yeah . Well . Um . Well , the first thing I {disfmarker} that I want to do is just maybe these gender things . Uh . And maybe see with {pause} Andreas if {disfmarker} Well , I {disfmarker} I don't know {pause} how much it helps , what 's the model .
PhD A: So {disfmarker} so the n stuff on the numbers you got , the two point seven , is that using the same training data that the SRI system used and got one point two ?
PhD C: That 's right . So it 's the clean {pause} TI - digits training set .
PhD A: So exact same training data ?
PhD C: Right .
PhD A: OK .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . I guess you used the clean training set .
Grad E: Right .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: For {disfmarker} with the SRI system {disfmarker}
PhD C: Well .
Grad E: You know , the {disfmarker} the Aurora baseline is set up with these , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this version of the clean training set that 's been filtered with this G - seven - one - two filter , and , um , to train the SRI system on digits S - Andreas used the original TI - digits , um , under U doctor - speech data TI - digits , which don't have this filter . But I don't think there 's any other difference .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Yeah .
Professor B: So is that {disfmarker} ? Uh , are {disfmarker} are these results comparable ? So you {disfmarker} you were getting with the , uh , Aurora baseline something like two point four percent {pause} on clean TI - digits , when , uh , training the SRI system with clean TR digits {disfmarker} {comment} TI - digits . Right ? And {disfmarker}
Grad E: Um . Uh - huh .
Professor B: Yeah . And , so , is your two point seven comparable , where you 're , uh , uh , using , uh , the submitted system ?
PhD C: Yeah . I think so .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: So it 's {pause} about the same ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: maybe a little worse .
Grad E: W w it was one {disfmarker} one point two
PhD C: Ye
Grad E: with the SRI system ,
Professor B: I 'm sorry .
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad E: I {disfmarker}
PhD C: The complete SRI system is one point two .
Professor B: You {disfmarker} you were HTK .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: Right ? OK . That 's right . So {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: OK , so {pause} the comparable number then , uh {pause} for what you were talking about then , since it was HTK , would be the {pause} um , two point f
PhD C: It was four point something . Right ? The HTK system with , uh , b
Grad E: D d
Professor B: Oh , right , right , right , right .
PhD C: MFCC features {disfmarker}
Grad E: Do you mean the b ? The baseline Aurora - two system , trained on TI - digits , tested on Meeting Recorder near , I think we saw in it today , and it was about six point six percent .
Professor B: Right . Right , right , right .
PhD C: Oh .
Professor B: OK . Alright . So {disfmarker} He 's doing some {pause} different things .
PhD C: So {disfmarker} Yeah . The only difference is the features , right now , between this and {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yes . OK , good . So they are helping .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: That 's good to hear . Yeah .
PhD C: They are helping . Yeah . Um . Yeah . And another thing I {disfmarker} I maybe would like to do is to {pause} just test the SRI system that 's trained on Macrophone {disfmarker} test it on , uh , the noisy TI - digits ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: cuz I 'm still wondering {pause} where this {pause} improvement comes from . When you train on Macrophone , it seems better on meeting digits . But I wonder if it 's just because maybe {pause} Macrophone is acoustically closer to the meeting digits than {disfmarker} than TI - digit is , which is {disfmarker} TI - digits are very {pause} clean recorded digits
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
PhD A: You know , it would also be interesting to see , uh {disfmarker} to do the regular Aurora test ,
PhD C: Uh , f s
PhD A: um , but use the SRI system instead of HTK .
PhD C: That 's {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's what {pause} I wanted , just , uh {disfmarker} Yeah . So , just using the SRI system , test it on {disfmarker} and test it on {pause} Aurora TI - digits . Right .
PhD A: Why not the full Aurora , uh , test ?
PhD C: Um . Yeah . There is this problem of multilinguality yet .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: So we don't {disfmarker}
Professor B: You 'd have to train the SRI system with {disfmarker} with all the different languages .
PhD C: i i
PhD A: Right .
PhD C: We would have to train on {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah . That 's what I mean .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: So , like , comple
Professor B: It 'd be a {pause} lot of work . That 's the only thing .
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: It 's {disfmarker}
PhD A: Well , I mean ,
PhD C: Mmm .
PhD A: uh , uh , I guess the work would be into getting the {disfmarker} the files in the right formats , or something . Right ? I mean {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Because when you train up the Aurora system , you 're , uh {disfmarker} you 're also training on all the data .
PhD C: That 's right .
PhD A: I mean , it 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah . Yeah . I see . Oh , so , OK . Right . I see what you mean .
Professor B: That 's true , but I think that also when we 've had these meetings week after week , oftentimes people have not done the full arrange of things
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: because {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on whatever it is they 're trying , because it 's a lot of work , even just with the HTK .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So , it 's {disfmarker} it 's a good idea , but it seems like {pause} it makes sense to do some pruning
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: first with a {disfmarker} a test or two that makes sense for you ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: and then {pause} take the likely candidates and go further .
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah . But , just testing on TI - digits would already give us some information {pause} about what 's going on . And {disfmarker} mm - hmm . Uh , yeah . OK . Uh , the next thing is this {disfmarker} this VAD problem that , um , um {disfmarker} So , I 'm just talking about the {disfmarker} the curves that I {disfmarker} I sent {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I sent you {disfmarker} so , whi that shows that {vocalsound} when the SNR decrease , {vocalsound} uh , the current {pause} VAD approach doesn't drop much frames {pause} for some particular noises , uh , which might be then noises that are closer to speech , uh , acoustically .
Professor B: I i Just to clarify something for me . I They were supp Supposedly , in the next evaluation , they 're going to be supplying us with boundaries .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So does any of this matter ? I mean , other than our interest in it . Uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: Uh {disfmarker} Well . First of all , the boundaries might be , uh {disfmarker} like we would have t two hundred milliseconds or {disfmarker} before and after speech . Uh . So removing more than that might still make {pause} a difference {pause} in the results .
Professor B: Do we {disfmarker} ? I mean , is there some reason that we think that 's the case ?
PhD C: And {disfmarker} No . Because we don't {disfmarker} didn't looked {pause} that much at that .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: But , {vocalsound} still , I think it 's an interesting problem .
Professor B: Oh , yeah .
PhD C: And {disfmarker} Um . Yeah .
Professor B: But maybe we 'll get some insight on that when {disfmarker} when , uh , the gang gets back from Crete . Because {pause} there 's lots of interesting problems , of course .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: And then the thing is if {disfmarker} if they really are going to have some means of giving us {pause} fairly tight , uh , boundaries , then that won't be so much the issue .
PhD C: Yeah , yeah . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Um But {vocalsound} I don't know .
PhD G: Because w we were wondering whether that {pause} VAD is going to be , like , a realistic one or is it going to be some manual segmentation . And then , like , if {disfmarker} if that VAD is going to be a realistic one , then we can actually use their markers to shift the point around , I mean , the way we want
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: to find a {disfmarker} I mean , rather than keeping the twenty frames , we can actually move the marker to a point which we find more {pause} suitable for us .
Professor B: Right .
PhD G: But if that is going to be something like a manual , uh , segmenter , then we can't {pause} use that information anymore ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: because that 's not going to be the one that is used in the final evaluation .
Professor B: Right .
PhD G: So . We don't know what is the type of {pause} {vocalsound} {pause} VAD which they 're going to provide .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . And actually there 's {disfmarker} Yeah . There 's an {disfmarker} uh , I think it 's still for {disfmarker} even for the evaluation , uh , it might still be interesting to {vocalsound} work on this because {pause} the boundaries apparently that they would provide is just , {vocalsound} um , starting of speech and end of speech {pause} uh , at the utterance level . And {disfmarker} Um .
PhD G: With some {disfmarker} some gap .
PhD C: So {disfmarker}
PhD G: I mean , with some pauses in the center , provided they meet that {disfmarker} whatever the hang - over time which they are talking .
PhD C: Yeah . But when you have like , uh , five or six frames , both {disfmarker}
PhD G: Yeah . Then the they will just fill {disfmarker} fill it up .
PhD C: it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} with {disfmarker}
PhD G: I mean , th {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: So if you could get at some of that , uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: although that 'd be hard .
PhD C: Yeah . It might be useful for , like , noise estimation , and a lot of other {pause} things that we want to work on .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD G: Yeah .
Professor B: Right . OK .
PhD C: But {disfmarker} Mmm . Yeah . So I did {disfmarker} I just {pause} started to test {pause} putting together two VAD which was {disfmarker} was not much work actually . Um , I im re - implemented a VAD that 's very close to the , {vocalsound} um , energy - based VAD {vocalsound} that , uh , the other Aurora guys use . Um . So , which is just putting a threshold on {pause} the noise energy ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: and , detect detecting the first {pause} group of four frames {pause} that have a energy that 's above this threshold , and , uh , from this point , uh , tagging the frames there as speech . So it removes {vocalsound} the first silent portion {disfmarker} portion of each utterance . And it really removes it , um , still o on the noises where {pause} our MLP VAD doesn't {pause} work a lot .
Professor B: Mmm .
PhD C: Uh ,
Professor B: Cuz I would have thought that having some kind of spectral {pause} information ,
PhD C: and {disfmarker}
Professor B: uh {disfmarker} uh , you know , in the old days people would use energy and zero crossings , for instance {disfmarker} uh , would give you some {pause} better performance . Right ? Cuz you might have low - energy fricatives or {disfmarker} or , uh {pause} stop consonants , or something like that .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Uh .
PhD C: Yeah . So , your point is {disfmarker} will be to u use whatever {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh , that if you d if you use purely energy and don't look at anything spectral , then you don't have a good way of distinguishing between low - energy speech components and {pause} nonspeech . And , um ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: just as a gross generalization , most nonsp many nonspeech noises have a low - pass kind of characteristic , some sort of slope . And {disfmarker} and most , um , low - energy speech components that are unvoiced have a {disfmarker} a high - pass kind of characteristic {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: an upward slope . So having some kind of a {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: uh , you know , at the beginning of a {disfmarker} of a {disfmarker} of an S sound for instance , just starting in , it might be pretty low - energy ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but it will tend to have this high - frequency component . Whereas , {vocalsound} a {disfmarker} a lot of rumble , and background noises , and so forth will be predominantly low - frequency . Uh , you know , by itself it 's not enough to tell you , but it plus energy is sort of {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: it plus energy plus timing information is sort of {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I mean , if you look up in Rabiner and Schafer from like twenty - five years ago or something , that 's sort of {pause} what they were using then .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's not a {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Hmm .
PhD C: So , yeah . It {disfmarker} it might be that what I did is {disfmarker} so , removes like {vocalsound} low , um , {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} low - energy , uh , speech frames . Because {pause} the way I do it is I just {disfmarker} I just combine the two decisions {disfmarker} so , the one from the MLP and the one from the energy - based {disfmarker} with the {disfmarker} with the and {pause} operator . So , I only {pause} keep the frames where the two agree {pause} that it 's speech . So if the energy - based dropped {disfmarker} dropped low - energy speech , mmm , they {disfmarker} they are {disfmarker} they are lost . Mmm .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: But s still , the way it 's done right now it {disfmarker} it helps on {disfmarker} on the noises where {disfmarker} it seems to help on the noises where {vocalsound} our VAD was not very {pause} good .
Professor B: Well , I guess {disfmarker} I mean , one could imagine combining them in different ways . But {disfmarker} but , I guess what you 're saying is that the {disfmarker} the MLP - based one has the spectral information . So .
PhD C: Yeah . But {disfmarker} Yeah . But the way it 's combined wi is maybe done {disfmarker} Well , yeah .
Professor B: Well , you can imagine {disfmarker}
PhD C: The way I use a an a " AND " operator is {disfmarker} So , it {disfmarker} I , uh {disfmarker}
Professor B: Is {disfmarker} ?
PhD C: The frames that are dropped by the energy - based system are {disfmarker} are , uh , dropped , even if the , um , MLP decides to keep them .
Professor B: Right . Right . And that might not be optimal ,
PhD C: But , yeah .
Professor B: but {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: No
Professor B: but {disfmarker} I mean , I guess in principle what you 'd want to do is have a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , a probability estimated by each one and {disfmarker} and put them together .
PhD C: Yeah . Mmm . M Yeah .
PhD A: Something that {disfmarker} that I 've used in the past is , um {disfmarker} when just looking at the energy , is to look at the derivative . And you {pause} make your decision when the derivative is increasing for {pause} so many frames . Then you say that 's beginning of speech .
PhD C: Uh - huh .
PhD A: But , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm trying to remember if that requires that you keep some amount of speech in a buffer . I guess it depends on how you do it . But {pause} I mean , that 's {disfmarker} that 's been a useful thing .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: Yeah . Well , every everywhere has a delay associated with it . I mean , you still have to k always keep a buffer ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: then only make a decision because {pause} you still need to smooth the {pause} decision further .
PhD A: Right . Right .
PhD G: So that 's always there .
PhD A: Yeah . OK .
PhD C: Well , actually if I don't {disfmarker} maybe don't want to work too much of {disfmarker} on it right now . I just wanted to {disfmarker} to see if it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} what I observed was the re was caused by this {disfmarker} this VAD problem .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And it seems to be the case . Um . Uh , the second thing is the {disfmarker} this spectral subtraction . Um . Um , which I 've just started yesterday to launch a bunch of , uh , {nonvocalsound} twenty - five experiments , uh , with different , uh , values for the parameters that are used . So , it 's the Makhoul - type spectral subtraction which use {pause} an over - estimation factor . So , we substr I subtract more , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um , {nonvocalsound} {vocalsound} noise than the noise spectra that {pause} is estimated {pause} on the noise portion of the s uh , the utterances . So I tried several , uh , over - estimation factors . And after subtraction , I also add {pause} a constant noise , and I also try different , uh , {vocalsound} noise , uh , values and we 'll see what happen .
Professor B: Hmm . OK .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . But st still when we look at the , um {disfmarker} Well , it depends on the parameters that you use , but for moderate over - estimation factors and moderate noise level that you add , you st have a lot of musical noise . Um . On the other hand , when you {pause} subtract more and when you add more noise , you get rid of this musical noise but {pause} maybe you distort a lot of speech . So . Well . Mmm . Well , it {disfmarker} until now , it doesn't seem to help . But We 'll see . So the next thing , maybe I {disfmarker} what I will {pause} try to {disfmarker} to do is just {pause} to try to smooth mmm , {vocalsound} the , um {disfmarker} to smooth the d the result of the subtraction , to get rid of the musical noise , using some kind of filter , or {disfmarker}
PhD G: Can smooth the SNR estimate , also .
PhD C: Yeah . Right . Mmm .
PhD G: Your filter is a function of SNR . Hmm ?
PhD C: Yeah . So , to get something that 's {disfmarker} would be closer to {pause} what you tried to do with Wiener filtering .
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD C: And {disfmarker} Mm - hmm . Yeah .
PhD G: Actually , it 's , uh {disfmarker} Uh . I don't know , it 's {disfmarker} go ahead .
PhD C: It {disfmarker}
PhD G: And it 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Maybe you can {disfmarker}
PhD G: go ahead .
PhD C: I think it 's {disfmarker} That 's it for me .
PhD G: OK . So , uh {disfmarker} u th I 've been playing with this Wiener filter , like . And there are {disfmarker} there were some bugs in the program , so I was p initially trying to clear them up . Because one of the bug was {disfmarker} I was assuming that always the VAD {disfmarker} uh , the initial frames were silence . It always started in the silence state , but it wasn't for some utterances . So the {disfmarker} it wasn't estimating the noise initially , and then it never estimated , because I assumed that it was always silence .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . So this is on SpeechDat - Car Italian ?
PhD G: Yeah .
PhD C: So , in some cases s there are also {disfmarker}
PhD G: SpeechDat - Car Italian . Yeah . There 're a few cases , actually , which I found later , that there are .
PhD C: o Uh - huh .
PhD G: So that was one of the {pause} bugs that was there in estimating the noise . And , uh , so once it was cleared , uh , I ran a few experiments with {pause} different ways of smoothing the estimated clean speech and how t estimated the noise and , eh , smoothing the SNR also . And so the {disfmarker} the trend seems to be like , {vocalsound} uh , smoothing the {pause} current estimate of the clean speech for deriving the SNR , which is like {pause} deriving the Wiener filter , seems to be helping . Then updating it quite fast using a very small time constant . So we 'll have , like , a few results where the {disfmarker} estimating the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} More smoothing is helping . But still it 's like {disfmarker} it 's still comparable to the baseline . I haven't got anything beyond the baseline . But that 's , like , not using any Wiener filter . And , uh , so I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm trying a few more experiments with different time constants for smoothing the noise spectrum , and smoothing the clean speech , and smoothing SNR . So there are three time constants that I have . So , I 'm just playing around . So , one is fixed in the line , like {pause} Smoothing the clean speech is {disfmarker} is helping , so I 'm not going to change it that much . But , the way I 'm estimating the noise and the way I 'm estimating the SNR , I 'm just trying {disfmarker} trying a little bit . So , that h And the other thing is , like , putting a floor on the , uh , SNR , because that {disfmarker} if some {disfmarker} In some cases the clean speech is , like {disfmarker} when it 's estimated , it goes to very low values , so the SNR is , like , very low . And so that actually creates a lot of variance in the low - energy region of the speech . So , I 'm thinking of , like , putting a floor also for the SNR so that it doesn't {pause} vary a lot in the low - energy regions . And , uh . So . The results are , like {disfmarker} So far I 've been testing only with the {pause} baseline , which is {disfmarker} which doesn't have any LDA filtering and on - line normalization . I just want to separate the {disfmarker} the contributions out . So it 's just VAD , plus the Wiener filter , plus the baseline system , which is , uh , just the spectral {disfmarker} I mean , the mel sp mel , uh , frequency coefficients . Um . And the other thing that I tried was {disfmarker} but I just {vocalsound} took of those , uh , {pause} {vocalsound} Carlos filters , which Hynek had , to see whether it really h helps or not . I mean , it was just a {disfmarker} a run to see whether it really degrades or it helps . And it 's {disfmarker} it seems to be like it 's not {vocalsound} hurting a lot by just blindly picking up one filter which is nothing but a {pause} four hertz {disfmarker} a band - pass m m filter on the cubic root of the power spectrum . So , that was the filter that Hy - uh , Carlos had . And so {disfmarker} Yeah . Just {disfmarker} just to see whether it really {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} is it worth trying or not . So , it doesn't seems to be degrading a lot on that . So there must be something that I can {disfmarker} that can be done with that type of noise compensation also , which {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess I would ask Carlos about that . I mean , how {disfmarker} how he derived those filters and {disfmarker} and where d if he has any filters which are derived on OGI stories , added with some type of noise which {disfmarker} what we are using currently , or something like that . So maybe I 'll {disfmarker}
Professor B: This is cubic root of power spectra ?
PhD G: Yeah . Cubic root of power spectrum .
Professor B: So , if you have this band - pass filter , you probably get n you get negative values . Right ?
PhD G: Yeah . And I 'm , like , floating it to z zeros right now .
Professor B: OK .
PhD G: So it has , like {disfmarker} the spectrogram has , like {disfmarker} Uh , it actually , uh , enhances the onset and offset of {disfmarker} I mean , the {disfmarker} the begin and the end of the speech . So it 's {disfmarker} there seems to be , like , deep valleys in the begin and the end of , like , high - energy regions ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: because the filter has , like , a sort of Mexican - hat type structure .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: So , those are the regions where there are , like {disfmarker} when I look at the spectrogram , there are those deep valleys on the begin and the end of the speech . But the rest of it seems to be , like , pretty nice .
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD G: So . That 's {pause} something I observe using that filter . And {disfmarker} Yeah . There are a few {disfmarker} very {disfmarker} not a lot of {disfmarker} because the filter doesn't have a {disfmarker} really a deep negative portion , so that it 's not really creating a lot of negative values in the cubic root . So , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll s may continue with that for some w I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} Maybe I 'll ask Carlos a little more about how to play with those filters , and {disfmarker} but while {pause} making this Wiener filter better . So . Yeah . That {disfmarker} that 's it , Morgan .
Professor B: Uh , last week you were also talking about building up the subspace {pause} stuff ?
PhD G: Yeah . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would actually m m didn't get enough time to work on the subspace last week . It was mostly about {pause} finding those bugs and
Professor B: OK .
PhD G: th you know , things , and I didn't work much on that .
PhD A: How about you , Carmen ?
PhD D: Well , I am still working with , eh , VTS . And , one of the things that last week , eh , say here is that maybe the problem was with the diff because the signal have different level of energy .
Professor B: Hmm ?
PhD D: And , maybe , talking with Stephane and with Sunil , we decide that maybe it was interesting to {disfmarker} to apply on - line normalization before applying VTS . But then {vocalsound} we decided that that 's {disfmarker} it doesn't work absolutely , because we modified also the noise . And {disfmarker} Well , thinking about that , we {disfmarker} we then {disfmarker} we decide that maybe is a good idea . We don't know . I don't hav I don't {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} I didn't {pause} do the experiment yet {disfmarker} to apply VTS in cepstral domain .
Professor B: The other thing {pause} is {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so , in {disfmarker} i i and {disfmarker} Not {disfmarker} and C - zero would be a different {disfmarker} So you could do a different normalization for C - zero than for other things anyway . I mean , the other thing I was gonna suggest is that you could have {pause} two kinds of normalization with {disfmarker} with , uh , different time constants . So , uh , you could do some normalization {vocalsound} s uh , before the VTS , and then do some other normalization after . I don't know . But {disfmarker} but C - zero certainly acts differently than the others do ,
PhD D: Uh .
Professor B: so that 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Well , we s decide to m to {disfmarker} to obtain the new expression if we work in the cepstral domain . And {disfmarker} Well . I am working in that now ,
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD D: but {vocalsound} I 'm not sure if that will be usefu useful . I don't know . It 's k it 's k It 's quite a lot {disfmarker} It 's a lot of work .
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD D: Well , it 's not too much , but this {disfmarker} it 's work .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: And I want to know if {disfmarker} if we have some {pause} feeling that {pause} the result {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would like to know if {disfmarker} I don't have any feeling if this will work better than apply VTS aft in cepstral domain will work better than apply in m mel {disfmarker} in filter bank domain . I r I 'm not sure . I don't {disfmarker} I don't know absolutely nothing .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: Yeah . Well , you 're {disfmarker} I think you 're the first one here to work with VTS , so , uh , maybe we could call someone else up who has , ask them their opinion . Uh ,
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: I don't {disfmarker} I don't have a good feeling for it . Um .
PhD G: Pratibha .
PhD C: Actually , the VTS that you tested before was in the log domain and so {pause} the codebook is e e kind of dependent on the {pause} level of the speech signal .
PhD D: Yeah ?
PhD C: And {disfmarker} So I expect it {disfmarker} If {disfmarker} if you have something that 's independent of this , I expect it to {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} to , uh , be a better model of speech .
PhD D: To have better {disfmarker}
PhD C: And . Well .
Professor B: You {disfmarker} you wouldn't even need to switch to cepstra . Right ? I mean , you can just sort of normalize the {disfmarker}
PhD C: No . We could normali norm I mean , remove the median .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . And then you have {pause} one number which is very dependent on the level cuz it is the level ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: and the other which isn't .
PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah . But here also we would have to be careful about removing the mean {pause} of speech and not of noise .
PhD D: Ye
PhD C: Because it 's like {pause} first doing general normalization
PhD D: Yea
PhD C: and then noise removal , which is {disfmarker}
PhD D: Yeah . We {disfmarker} I was thinking to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to estimate the noise {pause} with the first frames and then apply the VAD ,
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: before the on - line normalization .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: We {disfmarker} we see {disfmarker} Well , I am thinking {vocalsound} about that and working about that ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD D: but I don't have result this week .
Professor B: Sure . I mean , one of the things we 've talked about {disfmarker} maybe it might be star time to start thinking about pretty soon , is as we look at the pros and cons of these different methods , how do they fit in with one another ? Because {pause} we 've talked about potentially doing some combination of a couple of them . Maybe {disfmarker} maybe pretty soon we 'll have some sense of what their {pause} characteristics are ,
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: so we can see what should be combined .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: Is that it ? OK ?
Professor B: OK . Why don't we read some digits ?
PhD A: Yep . Want to go ahead , Morgan ?
Professor B: Sure .
PhD A: Transcript L dash two one five .
Professor B: O K .
Query:
Summarize the meeting
Answer:
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The meeting began with a discussion on the TORRENT project completion being pushed for two years. Grad F then introduced intermediate categorization, which was his topic for his qualification exams. The team then discussed mean subtraction from SRI. Using it had led to an improvement in Meeting Recorder digits though near mic performance worsened. The professor points to pre-echoes as the culprit. The team continued to study differences between SRI and Aurora. The team thought it would be interesting to do the Aurora tests with the SRI system instead of the HTK. The team was also exploring the Wiener filter and VTS. The professor did not seem too excited about the VTS.
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... [The rest of the transcript is omitted]
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va-sq-179
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va-sq-179_0
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Well , let's start . What are we doing ? Oops . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Ah , pinball .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay . Not doing .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm . Ah . Hey . {vocalsound} Ah .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Oh .
Marketing: Now I have my screen back too . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Very good .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} we have presentations . So first , it's your turn .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
User Interface: Mine . Oh , great .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Isn't it amazing . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Huh . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Very interesting .
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Industrial Designer . Interface concept .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes , well uh let's uh talk about the interface uh concept . Uh , first I'll uh I'll uh discuss the buttons we just chose , uh show you some samples , uh uh discuss some colours and design maybe , already . And uh my personal preferences . {vocalsound} Well we chose the power button to switch the television on and off . The bu uh the mute button to switch the volume on and o on and off . The channels buttons , one to nine , and uh off uh uh zero to nine , and the uh button to choose uh higher channels than nine . Uh the volume and channel quadrants , uh left and right , up and down arrows , to uh do the volume and channel . And the menu menu button to man manipulate the L_C_D_ uh display . Um , I found some uh interesting uh uh samples . Examples .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , well uh what's pretty standard is uh that it's {disfmarker} that they're all pretty uh uh high uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: Large .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Large and and and pretty thin and uh and long .
Marketing: A lot {disfmarker} a lot of buttons buttons .
User Interface: Um , power buttons are mostly at the top uh left or right . Um , well we see the the the same uh arrows . Like there . And uh {disfmarker} Yeah , well arrow b buttons can be blue . And what's interesting is the the the icons on the buttons . Some buttons have icons like the play and stop , but we don't use that . But uh , these we we have to choose the right icons , or or letters . Uh this is the V_ for volume , but they're both uh a V_ .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So it's it's not really very uh clear what's the function of that .
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Yeah . So , that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can you go back one page ? For the uh menu , what do we use for that ? We don't have buttons for the menu .
User Interface: Uh , well {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Or we may have to use channel of the volume and channel {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah . I thought that was our uh idea .
Project Manager: Okay . But {gap} uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: So , uh how {disfmarker}
Project Manager: You have to put it on the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Like this .
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Or or this . And that the menu button is okay .
Project Manager: Yeah but , has to be clear that you can use the arrows .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay .
Marketing: Yes .
User Interface: Uh , so the {disfmarker} The icons on the arrows , as well , you mean .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yes . The second one .
User Interface: Yeah . Uh , well that's something to uh think about . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Uh , maybe I'll have something in my uh presentation . And you will see it .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um , well I don't I don't know if we have to discuss this already , or in the next uh meeting .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But uh , as we have to uh to to design the the case and the whole uh remote control in our uh our our corporate uh company uh uh colours and the logo , I would uh recommend a yellow case . Uh , round edges . The logo at the bottom . And uh , well maybe each each uh set of buttons uh has uh has his own colour . So , it's good . Uh , recognisable . K so , I think .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not too much colours .
User Interface: Uh , no . Not too much .
Project Manager: No , it's not flower power .
User Interface: But uh {disfmarker} No , no , no . But this has to be has to be trendy and uh {disfmarker} and {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: S okay .
User Interface: Uh , yeah so good uh good icons on the buttons , and uh and big buttons is my uh personal uh opinion .
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: That was that .
Project Manager: Thank you . So , you're next .
Industrial Designer: I'm next , okay . {vocalsound} Yes . No . Here we go .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh , at first we will uh I will f uh say something about what younger people want ,
Marketing: {gap} Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: our uh group w uh w uh we want to uh sell our remote controls to . And then , I'll discuss what my opinion is about the costs , about uh what battery is in it , what kind of buttons also . First uh , the younger people , they want like soft mat uh materials and primary colours . Like , totally yellow , totally red . Uh , so it's visible . Uh , the shapes are curved and round , like uh you also said . Maybe it's nice to uh get a remote control not like all the other ones , straight and uh flat and long . But to give him the shape of your hand , so you {disfmarker} it's easier to use or something like that . But that's just an idea . And then , I'll have to discuss about the costs uh of all the things for the remote control . The battery , there are few options . Uh , I think the best option is to use uh the basic battery . So , everybody can buy it uh at the at the supermarket . Or use uh a k uh kinetic battery like uh within a watch . When you uh shake it a few times , it it's loaded . Uh , the the form of the remote control , I think it's also nice {gap} have it curved . And maybe like it's hand-shaped . Uh , so uh you take it here in your hand and here are the buttons . Uh material , you use plastic . Hard plastic uh because uh {gap} it won't have to burst uh like in the {disfmarker} in one time . And also rubber because the younger people like that , what we see in the research . Uh the push-buttons . We have one new thing uh discovered . It's a scroll push uh thing like a mouse . Maybe it's uh easy to use uh for the channels . When you want to go m move up , you just scroll up and click on the button , if you wanna see the next , uh if you wanna see that channel . And also for the mouse , uh for the volume , it's also uh easy to use . Just scroll a bit up , scroll a bit down . And that's also easy just w when you have a thing like this , and you get it here . You can do it with your thumb . And with your l left hand you can uh push the buttons
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: uh if you {gap} push uh channel one , you can see channel one . The electrics um with a scroll push uh button , we must use regular uh chips . There are also uh simple chips . They are uh cheaper . Um , but then we have just a basic uh uh remote control , and I think there are a lot of those uh things , and people won't buy it any more . They have seen enough of it . And you have also advanced um chips . But that's with the L_C_D_ uh screen . And the costs will increase a lot more . And I think our budget is too low to use and an L_C_D_ , and the chip who is more expensive . And maybe it's also then uh thoughtful if we u uh use uh as um different kind of uh shapes for the {disfmarker} for remote control , that we then use the primary colours . Like , you get a yellow uh remote control , red one , blue one , et cetera . You have any more questions about this ? I think the main thing is we look at the costs .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: And not too basic , not a basic remote control , who everybody already has .
Marketing: Yeah . But , thi i uh {disfmarker} This is with an L_C_D_ ? No ,
Industrial Designer: Not with an L_C_D_ .
Marketing: not .
Project Manager: No , isn't .
Industrial Designer: No .
Project Manager: But the L_C_D_ is easy when you use the scroll uh buttons . Then you can scroll , you see what number , and then you push .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . But then , what I say , the costs will uh get a lot higher .
Project Manager: But then it's not easy to use scroll uh wheel . If you don't {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Th then you'll see it on the television .
Project Manager: Hmm , yes . But then . Yeah , then you go one down one up . When you scroll .
Industrial Designer: but l when you see a menu uh on the television , it's like you see uh one to twenty , you go uh uh s scroll up , and push number tw twenty . Yeah
Project Manager: but like we said before , it has to be used on every television . Yeah So you may not be uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No . The television must do that . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yeah , I think the younger people will have newer televisions , which can provide our uh remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah but young people have to have all their uh room . And mostly they are smaller . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yes . But that won't be a problem . I think .
Project Manager: Most the times that are not advanced televisions .
Industrial Designer: No , but then we'll get to the regular uh remote controls .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And I think , what I said , everybody has them uh has them already . And they go to a uh supermarket and buy them uh for two Euros . Uh , and ge and get the most cheapest uh thing . And I think we must look further to uh to devel d develop something news .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Uh , can you give an indication in b uh in the cost difference between uh the chip with L_C_D_ or without ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I got it on my screen and it was uh higher . But I don't know uh how much higher . {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Cause it {disfmarker}
Project Manager: That's important .
Marketing: I think if we have an L_C_D_ , it will also sell a lot better .
Industrial Designer: That's true .
Marketing: And that might uh bring back the costs uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: But then we'll {disfmarker} I think we must discuss who {disfmarker} uh what will be better . If we have a better shape of the um remote control , or better options on it . With a scroll menu , a w scroll thing , and a L_C_D_ . And then a flat um remote control . Or , a more hand-shaped remote control , with scroll , without L_C_D_ .
Project Manager: Yeah . Maybe you can look how how much it is for the L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: I can uh look on my uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's very important .
Industrial Designer: {gap} Uh {disfmarker} Note that the push-button requires a simple chip chip . A scroll wheel requires minimally a regular chip , which is a higher price range . The display requires a advanced chip , which is which in turn is more expensive than the regular chip .
Project Manager: Yeah , more expensive . But how much ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Doesn't say . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: Huh .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: That's from my manufacturing division .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: 'Kay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well , thank you .
Industrial Designer: Yes ?
Marketing: My turn ?
Project Manager: Next .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm . So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Yeah . So , my uh presentation is about trend-watching . Uh , I did some trend-watching . It's very important to uh keep up with latest trends . {vocalsound} 'Cause if you don't , you won't sell . So , well how we did do that ? Uh , well we made an investigation of the market , by Trendwatchers . They uh watch in uh cities like uh Paris and Milan . Of course , well known for their uh trend {disfmarker} uh trends . And well , uh what did you find ? Uh , we have two groups , young and trendy , and the old and rich . Well th and the young and trendy , they uh they starting to like uh fruit and vegetables uh as a theme for n uh clothes , shoes , and also uh products . And um , material ? That should feel {disfmarker} have uh a spongy feeling . And to get a feeling for what it is , uh here is an image of it . Then the old and rich . They like uh dark colours , and simple , recognisable shapes .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And um , they also like uh familiar material , uh especially wood . Now , another picture .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: To get a feeling for this . Well , uh then already come to my personal preferences . We uh aim at the younger market . So , we should also be uh look at their uh trends . However , with trends it's always if there's {disfmarker} it's now . It it it might last one year , and next year it be {disfmarker} uh can be totally different . And I think we want to sell our product for longer than one year . So , we m must not just only look at what the trend is now , as it might be totally different next year . So , that's uh one thing to keep in mind .
Industrial Designer: Changing covers . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah . Any questions ?
Industrial Designer: Nope .
Project Manager: No . It's clear .
User Interface: No .
Project Manager: So now , it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Ah , let's see . Now , w we have to decide {vocalsound} Well , we have to decide on the concept . So , we have to look at {disfmarker} 'S next . Components and user interface concept . So {disfmarker} Now , we have to make some concept . Maybe one of you can paint it on the board . First , uh user interface .
Industrial Designer: Uh , uh-uh . How w how we how we make it ? Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes , a concept on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Just {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Shouldn't we first discuss about like what w we all {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but maybe we can paint it . Uh , what do we want ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah , but if I paint with {disfmarker}
Project Manager: I'll paint . Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Something like this ? Or {disfmarker} Shapes or {disfmarker} What do we need ?
User Interface: Mm , yes . What ?
Marketing: Can make several uh concepts .
Project Manager: Yes , okay .
Marketing: We have this , and we had the idea of an um a more uh uh uh like sh in the shape of your hand .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: More like something {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah I I I uh {disfmarker} yes . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: M like {disfmarker} Yeah I can't dr I can't draw it .
Project Manager: And you have to .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I have to .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: I'm not a designer . It's more {gap} three D_ . Like , um when you have a part here . This is the remote control . And then you have something like th this under it . So , it's easier to get it like this .
User Interface: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} It's like a gun . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: A g {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So , it has to be soft ?
Marketing: Mm . {gap} .
Industrial Designer: And it has to be soft , yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . And uh , the buttons ?
Industrial Designer: So , you can squeeze in it and {disfmarker} Sorry ?
Project Manager: Buttons .
Industrial Designer: Buttons on top of it . And here . The scrolling . You can do it with your thumb .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} No , it won't .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: But but i that's the only scroll uh button on it then ?
Industrial Designer: But now we use one scroll button and the other one is here . One till uh uh zero till nine .
User Interface: Yeah , okay .
Project Manager: But , well there one for the sound and one for the channels .
User Interface: But but how {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And the b
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah . How {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah ? Or two buttons .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Uh , two scroll uh wheels .
Marketing: And i if we go to uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: If uh {disfmarker} 'Kay c If we do {disfmarker} If we use one , then we'll have just a switch on it , and you'll just switch it , and now it's the sound to switch back
User Interface: Mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's th that's more difficult .
Marketing: But if we have uh a me Yeah .
Project Manager: It's better in {disfmarker}
Marketing: If we have a menu , uh how do we uh choose other options ?
Industrial Designer: with the menu uh button . And then you also can scroll uh scroll in it . Just not like all the other ones , with uh this thing , and uh here an arrow , here an arrow , here an arrow , here an arrow .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Because uh , from h hundred uh {gap} remote controls , ninety nine have it .
Project Manager: But if we don't have a L_C_D_ we don't have a menu .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh , then we have it on the T_V_ , the menu .
Marketing: Uh-uh .
Project Manager: Yeah , but {vocalsound} again maybe th How do we know the T_V_ can handle it ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You don't know . So , there's no menu .
Industrial Designer: I don't know . It's like some sort of uh teletext option , but we don't have teletext . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No . So you can't use it .
Industrial Designer: And if we put an L_C_D_ thing on it , then the costs will uh be much higher .
Project Manager: Okay , we make two concepts . One with L_C_D_ . One without L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . But you all like this kind of thing . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Good concept . But {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: With the scroll button .
Project Manager: That's one .
Industrial Designer: And and this one has to be soft .
Marketing: Uh-uh .
Industrial Designer: And this has to be harder , because when it falls , it mu mu must not burst . Or some kind of rubber around it .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: It's one . Two . Number two .
User Interface: And you can and you can uh make the the power button as a trigger .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Like uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ah that's nice .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Here . Trigger . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No . {vocalsound} But when you handle it , you put it on and off .
User Interface: Just to uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's not good to use .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but {vocalsound} I'll zap .
User Interface: Oh , like a {vocalsound} {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fuck . Out . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , it's not good .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Now , second concept . One with L_C_D_ , one without L_C_D_ . Then uh {disfmarker} Paint it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Paint it ?
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: With the scroll thing on , like this ?
Project Manager: One with two scroll buttons and one with without . Yeah . Uh , one with a with a menu , and one without a menu .
Industrial Designer: So ?
Project Manager: And the one with with a menu has an L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Draw it . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Unbelievable .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Do I have to do everything . Blank . You have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Not so difficult .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
User Interface: But if you put {disfmarker} push the the menu button {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Uh , that's the menu . There for the L_C_D_ screen .
User Interface: Yeah , wh what {disfmarker} Yes , but you don't know which of the scroll buttons you have to choose .
Project Manager: You have to {disfmarker} For the menu .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . One that way . And one that way . So {disfmarker} Then it depends on the cost . S On and off .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: But is it easy to use ? When you have it on your left side , and {disfmarker}
Project Manager: When it's not too big . Just like a a phone .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: M uh yeah , maybe it's better if the uh scroll-wheels are um
Industrial Designer: Separate , more separate , h yeah .
Marketing: more separate , yeah .
Project Manager: Yes , okay .
Marketing: Like , you have the menu button in between uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . On the left a scroll button , and on the right a scroll button . But would it be easy to use then ? If it's like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you have a big uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Very good . Is it better ? When you uh {gap} the menu , you have to go there there there there .
Industrial Designer: I also think this concept is not what the young people were looking for .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: They were like round curves , uh different uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , okay . That's that's the outside . But now the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay , okay , okay .
Project Manager: First the buttons .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Think we have we have now two buttons missing . The uh um {disfmarker} The mute button .
Project Manager: Sorry ?
Marketing: We have two buttons missing . The mute button . And um , the {disfmarker} to to uh {disfmarker} have to uh {disfmarker} numbers
Project Manager: Mute . And the other .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Not so difficult .
Marketing: {vocalsound} But , uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Personally , I think two scroll buttons uh aren't easy to handle .
Project Manager: But how do you wanna solve it ?
Industrial Designer: With the switch button .
Project Manager: Yeah but on the menu that's not uh easy .
Industrial Designer: No
Project Manager: Then you go down , you switch , you go into the right , you switch , you go down .
Industrial Designer: like uh {disfmarker} Oh , you mean like that .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Uh , then you can also have like uh th um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: A joystick .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , and joystick , I think .
Project Manager: Yeah . But is it uh {disfmarker} Does that break , a joystick ? Or a small one just like in a laptop .
Industrial Designer: Yeah like in a laptop , s uh s some sort of thing . A little bit bigger , with easier thi
Project Manager: Mean , it's better . But how expensive it is ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: I don't know .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh . Why do I pay you for ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um , well {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Better ideas . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Or no scroll uh things . Just a shape . And {disfmarker} {gap} No , no . It won't work .
Project Manager: For the young peoples I think scroll button's good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh-huh .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Think we have to keep them .
Industrial Designer: Or a remote control more like joystick .
Project Manager: Yeah , but is it {disfmarker} That's not expensive than uh {disfmarker} Joystick is better . A small one .
Industrial Designer: A small one like this , like a Nintendo uh k
Project Manager: No just like in a
Industrial Designer: Playstation thing .
Project Manager: a laptop . Small , round .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Then it's not so big .
Industrial Designer: No , no , no . I mean the the shape of the remote control .
Project Manager: Oh the sh Yeah , but then you can {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just like a Playstation thing . Yeah .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Maybe , if it's possible , {vocalsound} it's not too expensive , I think a joystick is better .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: A small one . So , please look at it .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No , that's okay , I got {disfmarker}
Marketing: And on the L_C_D_ , how much it costs ? Uh , it costs extra ?
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they're not uh in details .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's more expensive or less expensive , huh ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah we {disfmarker} I think you get it . So , after this meeting you have half an hour to uh fix it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} Then I have to come with it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: I got my personal costs . I I don't I don't know the costs .
Project Manager: Your problem . Not mine .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Then I'll uh make something up .
Project Manager: Okay . So , do we have other concepts ? Then for the components , we use a normal battery . Then it's {disfmarker} Ch cheapest way , I think .
User Interface: Mm , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , or the or the kinetic uh with normal battery .
Project Manager: No , no kinetic . Kinetic is uh ch makes it more expensive .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think it's uh , yeah , more expensive . Yeah .
Project Manager: So we use a normal battery .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Chip . Depends on the L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Depends on the scroll .
Project Manager: Scroll .
Industrial Designer: If we use a scroll , then we have the uh regular chip . If we don't use a scroll , then we can use the simple chip .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And that's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And uh , we {disfmarker} If you use the L_C_D_ , we have to
Industrial Designer: Uh the most expensive .
Project Manager: Yes , okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: So , depends on the L_C_D_ and the scroll .
Industrial Designer: If we {disfmarker} Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: If we {disfmarker} No okay scroll-wheel . So , I have this . So , it will be uh the advanced chip , or the uh regu uh or the regular chip .
Project Manager: Okay . So , uh the shapes of the design depends on the L_C_D_ and {disfmarker} But , it has to be small . I think .
Industrial Designer: Or shall we just put it on the pistol thing ? And then just put also on L_C_D_ on it ?
Project Manager: If you have pistol , it {disfmarker} L_C_D_'s not easy . Y y {vocalsound} Yeah but {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Just use your thumb .
Project Manager: If you use a phone .
Industrial Designer: If you {disfmarker} Yeah . I use my thumb .
Project Manager: {gap} k Yeah , but but then you have it . Like , th if you have pistol , you have it so . And the screen is {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Well , then you have to keep it this way to look at the screen .
Industrial Designer: If you have a joystick on {disfmarker} No , if you have like uh an uh uh a ni a uh Playstation uh game controller .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And you move up , f forward , down , left . Then you have uh just , yeah , a little bit curved . It's not just uh {vocalsound} straight .
Project Manager: No . No , no .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's how we use it . That's why they make joysticks like that , I think .
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah , but then you look forward .
Marketing: Uh , yeah , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: And then you can y
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah ?
Project Manager: N well , if you have to look at it .
Marketing: If you {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay . Here's our designer .
Marketing: If we have uh then something standing here , with the L_C_D_ .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Then it goes like this .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , why not .
Project Manager: If th n well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: It's for the younger people .
Project Manager: Yes , of course .
Industrial Designer: It's something new . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: That's good good .
User Interface: It's uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But the {disfmarker} um , it may not break .
Industrial Designer: Now we put uh rubber around it .
Project Manager: Okay . If that's possible .
Marketing: Um , Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hard plastic , uh the shape , and around it hard uh around it rubber . And the uh the hand shape is also rubber .
Marketing: {gap}
Project Manager: Okay .
User Interface: Or you can uh turn it inside .
Marketing: {gap} I can't see the {gap} . But , uh the easy of {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: But that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: uh , th the ease of use wasn't uh the most important uh aspect of it .
Industrial Designer: Huh .
User Interface: No , that's true .
Marketing: Uh , for us it's about to sell it . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah of course .
Industrial Designer: This is something new .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Then this is the design . And the buttons are on the next page . So , depends on the cost . So ,
Industrial Designer: Costs are okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} um we have one minute .
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} One .
Project Manager: I think . No .
Marketing: No . You have more .
Project Manager: More . Seven .
Marketing: You have still ten .
Project Manager: Next meeting . Thirty minutes . So hurry up .
Industrial Designer: Oh , that's us together .
Project Manager: You two stay here . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Paint it .
User Interface: Okay .
Project Manager: Now you have to .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I think it's clear . Check your mail . So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Project Manager: It has to be ready in the next meeting . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
User Interface: Cookie .
Marketing: What ? Okay .
Project Manager: Next meeting is called the detailed design . So {disfmarker} Everyth everything has to be ready . Thanks for your attention . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: See you at the next meeting .
Industrial Designer: Bye bye .
Query:
What did Marketing talk about market trend findings?
Answer:
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There were two groups, the young and trendy, and the old and rich. For the first group, they would like fruit and vegetables as a theme for clothes, shoes, and also products. And for the material, a spongy feeling one would be better. But the old and rich would like dark colors, simple, and recognizable shapes as well as familiar material, wood especially.
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies, and I'm very pleased to welcome Angela Burns, who is substituting for Suzy this morning. We've also received apologies from Dawn Bowden. Can I also welcome Siân Gwenllian to the meeting? Siân is joining us from her constituency office via video-conference. Can I ask Members if they've got any declarations of interest, please? Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Apologies. I'm currently registered as an associate lecturer at Cardiff Metropolitan University, although I haven't done any work for them for some time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you very much. We'll move on, then, to item 2 this morning, which is our evidence session on the higher education new academic year allocations. I'm very pleased to welcome David Blaney, who is chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, and Bethan Owen, who is deputy chief executive of HEFCW. Thank you, both, for attending this morning. We're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first questions are from Angela Burns.
Angela Burns AM: Good morning. Thank you very much, indeed. I just wanted to talk about, really, the financial sustainability of the higher education sector because, as we know, there's been all sorts of things going on in the press. So, can I just start with, actually, quite a technical question and ask you what the financial indicators look like for the universities here in Wales, and are there particular indicators that are really flashing warning signals to you?
Dr David Blaney: Well, shall I just start with a couple of contextualising comments and Bethan can come in then with some detail? It's undeniably the case there are financial challenges facing our universities. They result from three main causes: one is the impact of the demographic dip of 18-year-olds, which is deeper and longer in Wales than it is elsewhere in the UK. There are increased pension costs and, actually, increased costs generally. And, of course, we also have current uncertainty as a result of the Augar review in England, and whether that might play into Wales, and also Brexit. These challenges are not unique to Wales; the majority of the UK universities are actually taking out cost one way or another. So, this is not a Welsh issue. Before the Diamond review of fees and funding in Wales, there was a pre-existing funding gap in resource between England and Wales, and even now, that's still the case. So, Welsh higher education institutions are approximately £40 million worse off than they would be in the English system. That's a challenge, and that is a result from a political decision to invest in students, and that's fine. The money's gone into the system but it hasn't gone into universities, necessarily. So, these are serious challenges for institutions to manage, but I think it is a managed situation. We're not seeing a crisis; we are seeing some real challenges, and there is a distinction, I think, between—. We have to understand, though, that taking out cost to balance the books has a detrimental effect on the capacity. Obviously it impacts on the people who lose their jobs immediately, but there's a medium to longer term impact on the capacity of the system to deliver for Wales. They are taking out capacity; they're not cutting at fat now, they're cutting out core capacity. And so, the range of the curriculum, the range of research and innovation, the range of the contribution that universities can make will be diminished by that. And against that backdrop, the introduction of the Diamond reforms is hugely important—delivery of that is going to be really important—and we are really pleased to see the Minister able to meet her commitments in respect of that. The Diamond money is coming in. This forthcoming year will be the first year we see an increase in the resource, through us, to higher education. And the projections in future years are better still, and that will be extremely important. The performance of the sector is very good; we had the national student survey results out yesterday. Wales is still the best in the UK, which is excellent. We have the best impact from research in Wales across the UK. So, all of that is very positive, but that is also being done at some cost. There are some very tired staff in universities, and we've seen some stuff in the press recently about some of the impact of stress there as well.
Angela Burns AM: Can I bring you back to the financial element of that? Can I just ask a question: what are the university reserves looking like at present?
Dr David Blaney: Here, I refer to my learned friend.
Bethan Owen: The reserves are a measure. There's a difference between the distributable reserves—I don't have those numbers before me, but looking at reserves, what is more important are those reserves that are available as cash or liquid cash. So, universities have reserves, but a large amount of that is tied up in their estates, so they're not immediately realisable. So, one of the key measures that we're looking at, which is even more important than surpluses and deficit, is the operating cash that our universities are generating at the moment. When we look at operating cash in 2017-18, they were generating, as a percentage of income, about 7.6 per cent, which contrasts with nearly 10 per cent for the same year for English institutions. And that represents their capacity to generate surplus cash to meet their costs, which now, increasingly, include the costs of servicing their borrowings. So, again, because capital funding has not been as available to universities as it was, they've invested in their estates and that's largely been funded by borrowings. The costs of those borrowings have to be met on an annual basis, so that's becoming an increasing proportion of the operating cash that universities have.
Angela Burns AM: I just asked that question because I know that about four years ago, the universities were sitting on substantial reserves and were less than keen to deploy them back into actually using them for the students—it was more about building up the war chest, if you like, of the universities. And I just really wanted to have an understanding of how that picture might have changed over the last four years and are they actually skinnier cats now, rather than before.
Bethan Owen: We can get you that analysis, but even four years ago, I think the definition of exactly what's meant by reserves, it's really important to look at what are distributable reserves as opposed to the assets that universities have.
Angela Burns AM: Yes, I do understand the difference.
Bethan Owen: And, there are also differences in the way that universities have secured funding for investing in their estates. So, for example, Cardiff University have had a bond rather than borrowing, which you draw down as you're spending. So, in the short term, the reserves of Cardiff will appear as though they have significant cash balances, but all of those are restricted for investment in the estate and, over the next two or three years, will be utilised for that.
Angela Burns AM: So, overall, you're painting a picture of a sector that's under a significant degree of financial stress, and this is obviously using your key financial indicators. Do you monitor each and every university, or do you wait for them to come back and tell you what their situation is?
Bethan Owen: We monitor, we receive forecasts, five-year forecasts, and we meet frequently with all our universities now. It varies, depending on the risks of the universities, as to how frequently we meet, but we're actually meeting with every university because even the forecast that we received last July, the changes, even in the 12-month period, are significant enough for us to need a better understanding of what the latest position is. The forecasts, if I just run through—. We had a sector that, in 2017-18, had a deficit. Although it had a turnover and income of £1.5 billion, which had increased, nonetheless it had a small deficit of 0.4 per cent of income in 2017-18, which was an improvement on the deficit the year before of 1.7 per cent, but notably, again, the sector in England were looking at surpluses of 3 per cent to 4 per cent in the same period. The forecasts that we had this time last year were indicating that, for 2018-19, we should have a sector that's roughly in a break-even position, but that has to be caveated with waiting for new forecasts in July, where there will have to be a reflection of the pension costs, and there have been significant changes in pension costs, both for the teachers' pension scheme and the universities' superannuation scheme as well, and those will be significant costs that universities have to build into their forecasts at a time when their income, certainly their fee income, is not increasing, and that is the challenge.
Angela Burns AM: Are we going to lose any universities in the next couple of years?
Dr David Blaney: I don't think so. As I said earlier on, we're not seeing a crisis, we're seeing really challenging circumstances for institutions to manage. At the moment, our sense is they are managing them, so one of the things we try to do is to make sure that, insofar as we can see it, we are making sure that the institutions are alert to the challenges they're facing, and are actually engaging those challenges properly, and we are seeing that at the moment. So I think what we will see if the pressure continues unabated is more costs being taken out, so more jobs being lost, more capacity being lost, but that's not the same as falling over. I don't see people falling over. There is always the possibility of structural change within the sector, and that might be one of the solutions that institutions think about, but it's not a policy position, and it's not always a good short-term response to crisis anyway, actually. But I think, as I say, we're in a managed situation, but the challenges are quite acute. But I don't see an institution falling over in the foreseeable future.
Angela Burns AM: When you talk about structural change, are you referring to the fact that certain offshoots or divisions might close? I bring this up because I'm the Assembly Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, and I have had multiple representations from students, and their parents, who are about to go to Lampeter and who've been told that courses are being restructured, there's a massive staff loss, and they have concerns about whether the three-year commitment they're about to make to a course is going to be able to be sustained. So I am trying to drill down a little bit, because I think it's only fair for the students to know what they're up against, and also it's a bit like in the great depression—you can start a run on something, can't you? Because if enough people believe it, then suddenly enough people will stop going to what is an excellent little university, really top-quality in medieval literature, in archaeology. And I'm just talking about one, but I know there are problems in other universities around Wales, so I just wondered if you could comment on that and also what processes you as HEFCW might have in place to protect any student who does find themselves in a situation where their course appears to be disappearing before their eyes.
Dr David Blaney: So, there's quite a lot in that question, actually. Let me try not to forget any of the elements. First of all, your comment about causing a run is a serious consideration. So, if we look at the debate that happened in the Senedd last week, from my reading of the transcript, it was actually quite a balanced debate where pretty much every contributor made reference to the contribution that higher education is making. There was reference to the national student survey scores, and in many ways Wales is the best place in the UK to come and be a student, because you are looked after properly in Wales. But there was also a perfectly legitimate exploration of whether or not there's a crisis, and if you look at the way in which that was represented in the media, the crisis bit stuck and the rest of it didn't. At the point where the sector is trying very hard to recruit students, it's really quite unhelpful that you get that sort of representation. So we do need to make sure, I think, all of us, that we try to avoid a situation where there can be media amplification of a problem that's not actually as acute as the media are portraying it, and that is very harsh. I'm not being critical of the political process here, but it has ripples and we do need to be careful that we don't start a run on this. In terms of the specifics at Lampeter, we understand that there are no plans to close any of the departments, and there certainly will not be plans to pull the rug out from under continuing students. That is just not what institutions do. So there's an absolute obligation on them to meet their commitments, and that's a contractual obligation anyway, so it's a legal obligation. But we also have a quality machinery that we operate where we would expect institutions to be able to demonstrate that they've put in place appropriate arrangements to ensure that students can finish their programmes of study. So they're not going to be recruiting students to programmes that they're not planning to continue—they just are not going to do that. And if you think about it in a market context, it would be suicidal for a university to treat their students like that.
Angela Burns AM: But I have to ask these questions because the auditor was very clear that there was a material uncertainty in Trinity Saint David's financial plans.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, I understand that, so let’s come back to the material uncertainty. [Interruption.] No, I understand, and that's fine. What I'm hoping to try and express is that we have absolute confidence that the institutions will not do the dirty on their students. They will look after their students and if they're recruiting to programmes, they are recruiting to programmes that they are planning to run, and run through to completion. And the expectations that we place on them in terms of our quality assurance machinery is precisely that—when they are engaged in portfolio change, they have to look after the interest of the students that they currently have. In terms of our oversight and monitoring, our primary consideration, again, is the interest of the students. They are the people who have, in many ways, least influence over what happens in terms of the way an institution is managed. Although, they do have a voice and, actually, the arrangements for the student voice in Wales are, again, better than elsewhere in the UK. But, nonetheless, we do not wish to see students becoming innocent victims of difficulties of management and financing. And so that is our primary consideration when we're looking at these institutions. Our institutional risk review process is fundamentally designed to make sure that institutions are grappling with their problems before they become a crisis. So, we have machinery, which has 70/80 different factors and hundreds of questions that we ask twice a year, to interrogate the performance of the institutions and to make sure that we are seeing them managing the issues that they're facing. So, it's not the challenges you face, it's the way you face your challenges—it's a cliché—and, at the moment, they are managing them, but if we were in any way concerned that they weren't, the people who are most at risk in that context are the students and we will be intervening to make sure that they were cited, and we do intervene when we have to.
Angela Burns AM: Well, following on from what you said, I've just got two really specific technical questions, then, to ask, because you said that you look across the whole scope to make sure that they are meeting all of their correct liquidity ratios and so on. So, considering how much is invested in their estates, are you happy that each university's estates strategy and its financing is prudent and has appropriate governing-body oversight in place?
Dr David Blaney: Yes, so the estates strategies that institutions operate are overseen by either the full governing body or relevant sub-committees in respect of every institution, so there is proper governance oversight. And in all of those instances, there is staff and student engagement as well in the strategic approach on estates. So, the machinery is in place—
Angela Burns AM: Because it's the big thing that drives most of university borrowing, isn't it?
Dr David Blaney: Indeed, it is.
Angela Burns AM: So, if our universities are on a sticky wicket, we just need to know that the borrowing that they're undertaking is absolutely prudently assessed and is appropriate. So, as long as you're content, if I can hear you say that—[Laughter.]
Dr David Blaney: Okay. We're content on two fronts: one is that the governance machinery within the institutions is structured appropriately to look at that, but also that if the institutions are wanting to engage in anything other than relatively trivial borrowing, they have to get our consent as well. And what we don't do is second-guess everything, but what we do do is make sure that the governing body, or its relevant committees, have been asking the right questions. So, there are two bits to this.
Angela Burns AM: And then—sorry.
Bethan Owen: Can I just add to that, then?
Angela Burns AM: Yes, of course.
Bethan Owen: In asking for the forecasts, we have reinforced this year the importance of universities looking at different scenarios. So, to be looking at the demographic and maybe in the past, where there's potentially been growth in the system and universities have built that into their forecast, we have explicitly asked this year that we are provided—not just the governing body—with the scenario where there is no growth in the income. That's not the core forecast, but a scenario, so that it's quite clear how reliant the forecasts are on that growth, and if that growth doesn't come through, what the contingency plans are for ensuring that all the cost commitments can be met. And we should probably just differentiate between—we have a role before borrowings are entered into, but all the best forecasts in the world can never quite predict, certainly what's happened in the last two years, probably, in universities. So, there are significant borrowings that are now committed to and the key measures we are looking at are universities' capacity to meet their covenants and their repayments under those borrowings, because that's essential for maintaining their liquidity.
Angela Burns AM: Which actually, neatly, thank you, brings me to my last question, which is: have any universities broken those loan covenants or been close to breaking them, unable to pay their borrowings as and when they fall due?
Bethan Owen: There was a significant change in accounting standards in 2015, financial reporting standard 102, so most universities had to renegotiate their covenants, but it was because the accounts were looking very different. The accounting standards brought about changes in how income was recognised and how some service concession arrangements, largely student accommodation arrangements, and pension costs, significantly, were recognised in the accounts. So, most universities have had to renegotiate covenants, but we're not aware of any who've had to renegotiate due to covenant breaches, other than one which the University of Wales Trinity Saint David disclosed in their financial statements—that they did need to renegotiate their financing arrangements, which they have done earlier this year, and they have now negotiated new covenants. It's a core part of financial management in universities now that you manage your relationship with your lender as well as with us. Breaching covenants in themselves is different to doing that with your lender being unaware and the factors being within your control. So, again, from that perspective, we have the covenants built into our forecasts, we require the forecasts to show how the university are planning to be within their covenants. The nature of those covenants vary, but most of them require a measure of cash flow, a ratio between the cash generated and the cost of debt, so there is close monitoring that is required because of the borrowing in the system, as well as our ongoing monitoring as well.
Angela Burns AM: Thank you, Bethan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Just before we move on to Hefin David, can I just ask you what your view, then, is on the statement included by auditors in the accounts of Trinity Saint David that there is material uncertainty?
Bethan Owen: Yes, I'll pick up on that. The material uncertainty largely relates—there is a note in the accounts that explains the factors that are being taken into account, but it largely relates to some significant cash receipts that have been subject to timing delays and the fact that the timing of these is essentially outside the control of the institution. The main delay relates to the receipt of funding for the Egin project, which was due to be received from the Swansea city deal. That funding has been delayed, but the sums due to the university are still due to the university—it's the issue of the timing of those receipts that is causing a cash pressure. Receipt of that funding would certainly reduce the cash flow pressure at the university at the moment. Just in terms of cash flows, all universities have to ensure that they are maintaining enough cash in their system to meet their payments as they fall due. Most of their costs are incurred on a monthly basis, staff costs in particular, but the income flows into universities are now less regular. In days gone by, that funding would largely flow from us and that would also come on a monthly basis. The funding from the Student Loans Company now, for example, comes in chunks. A quarter of that money comes in in October, a quarter in February, and the majority of it, half of it, doesn't come into the university in cash until May. So, that's quite a different cash management scenario for universities to manage; it requires holding cash balances to do it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before I bring Hefin in, we're going to need to have a bit of agility, as Dai Lloyd would call it, in our questioning and our answers if we're going to cover the ground that we need to cover. So, Hefin.
Hefin David AM: How can we be assured that governance arrangements across the eight institutions are sufficiently rigorous but also consistent?
Dr David Blaney: So, the first point to make, of course, is that universities are autonomous, as you know—
Hefin David AM: I've just written 'independent and autonomous'.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, all of that. And they are charities and so on, so they have expectations in respect of that in any case. The university governing body obviously is an important part of the machinery, particularly in terms of generating constructive challenge for the executive within universities. The governing bodies all are expected to behave in a way that is consistent with the guidance produced by the Committee of University Chairs, the CUC guide, which identifies good practice. So, it’s a higher education code of governance and all Welsh universities work to that code. That code is itself up for review at the moment. So, that is an opportunity for that to be strengthened. Just in terms of governing bodies, it's also important that governing bodies engage in a process of continual refreshing, because that gives you a greater variety of perspectives, which is important. But it’s also important they have people who understand the higher education business as well as from other contexts. Getting that mix right is important. As it happens at the moment, there are also issues about ethnicity and gender balance. Half the chairs of Welsh university governing bodies are female. Half the vice-chancellors are female. That’s a positive position for Wales to be in. But I think our view would be that when you get an increase in the contextual pressures that we’ve been discussing already this morning, the role of the governing body actually becomes even more significant. So, we have encouraged the sector, both the chairmen of the university councils, but also the vice-chancellors, to engage in a process of an independent review of governance in Wales. We’ll be alongside that. We’ll be supporting that. But, actually, it’s important that they own it. And it hasn’t been hard for us to encourage that—they have been keen to take this opportunity to take stock. The Welsh higher education system is part of a UK system—they don’t want to be a million miles away from the rest of the UK in terms of expectations, but there is scope in Wales, given the scale of the sector, to actually construct something that is more challenging, I think, in terms of expectations, than might be the common denominator across the UK, and maybe some more exemplification. Importantly, in this exercise, we are not just interested in governance process. It’s going to be quite hard to do this, but I’m very keen that we engage—and the sector are up for this—in governance culture, because, actually, you can do process checks and you’ll have the right structure of committees and have the right sort of papers going, but, in the end, it’s the dynamic within that room and who’s asking which questions and how well informed they are, and whether it's an open culture or is it a defensive culture—these are really what influences the quality of decision making.
Hefin David AM: And how different are those cultures across institutions?
Dr David Blaney: I think it’s very hard to say. We don’t sit in the governing bodies of those institutions. Very occasionally we get to observe one. Typically, that’s at a point where there are sufficient difficulties going on that we feel that we need to—
Hefin David AM: Do you have the option to observe at any point?
Dr David Blaney: We can't insist, I don't think.
Bethan Owen: We can ask to.
Dr David Blaney: We can ask. But in the main, actually, our presence would change the dynamic of that anyway, so I'm not sure that's necessarily helpful. But we are keen to see what we can achieve with the sector in addressing these issues of what constitutes constructive challenge.
Hefin David AM: I take from that that there might be different approaches in different institutions. Is your aim to see consistency in the same approaches, then?
Dr David Blaney: I think we’d like to see a consistent minimum set of expectations. I think there are differences, because there are people involved. In the end, it’s about personalities, it’s about people’s background and it’s about their knowledge. And we have a role to play in this as well, so we have a toolkit that we produce for governors, which, essentially, is a set of information that locates their university in the context of the UK, across a number of factors. So, if they had been told something that is not perhaps as true as it might be by the executive, they can see that in the data. Whether that toolkit needs a refresh—I’m sure it probably does, it’s been there for a while now—. So, part of that is what information we can provide to help governing bodies be properly informed as well.
Hefin David AM: Yes, and this is the independence and autonomy thing. This is quite distant from Government—unlike other institutions, where you can prescribe some of these approaches.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, and in the end I don't think there's any pushback from the sector in terms of wanting to operate in accordance with best practice.
Hefin David AM: Yes, and I totally defend independence and autonomy.
Dr David Blaney: Absolutely. The challenge is all of us being clear what constitutes best practice.
Hefin David AM: So, what about risk appetite? Do you feel that any governing bodies are exhibiting what might be considered to be an imprudent risk appetite?
Dr David Blaney: I don't think so, and this manifests itself in two ways. So, we would see this coming through in forecasts, and we would see it coming through in requests for borrowings, predominantly. Actually, we'd see it in other ways as well. Our links into institutions are many and various, and we have our formal stuff, but we all have links into institutions that are informal and we—. One of the beauties of the scale of the sector in Wales is we can see the institutions in a way that they can't hope to in England. It's just completely different. And so we would see it in other ways. But we have, in some instances, I think it's fair to say, helped institutions to think again about some of their aspirations. So, where we've seen things and we think, 'That just looks ridiculously optimistic,' we've just asked the questions. We don't say, 'No, you can't do that,' because they are autonomous, they make the decisions, but we try to make sure that they're asking the right questions.
Hefin David AM: So, would you see that governing bodies are falling short in doing that themselves, in that, where they become strategic decisions that require due diligence, are the governing bodies themselves presenting that challenge? Or the fact you've just said that, does that suggest to us that, actually, they are falling short?
Dr David Blaney: I think there's a mixture of things going on. We have a slightly different perspective and we have a perspective that is very intimately informed in terms of how the institution is performing. So, you have a governing body with a range of perspectives, and you will also have people who are very committed and very enthusiastic about the institution, and just occasionally it's helpful to get a slightly external perspective on these things. So, I don't think it's a shortfall as such, but I just think—
Hefin David AM: The kind of honest broker role, kind of.
Dr David Blaney: The machinery depends on having a body like HEFCW doing some of that role, and the people who lend money to institutions are absolutely clear about that. So, we have relationships with the banks; they come and see us every now and again—typically not to talk about individual clients but just to talk about what we do and how we do it. Interestingly, for example, when Michael Barber got up before Christmas and said there will be no bail-outs of universities, we had banks on the phone to us within a couple of days, wanting just to talk about how it is in Wales and is it still how it used to be. So, they are very keenly aware of what we do. So, it's not really a governance failure; it's just that the machinery includes us.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's important. And one of the things, from a distance—I mean, I've been involved in different ways in an institution, and looking at the institutions from a distance. There are people, as you say, involved, and people always make the difference in different cultures. Do you find that the relationships between executive teams and governors is effective, and are they sufficiently robust and challenging as well? Those executive permanent staff and the governors—is there challenge there?
Dr David Blaney: I would say, in the main, yes. Occasionally, we help the governors to ask the right questions, so occasionally that external perspective we've just discussed is helpful in that regard. Actually, there are times when there are tensions between the executive and governing bodies, inevitably—that's not something that's remarkable—and we can feel that as well. We have conversations with both governing bodies and executives.
Hefin David AM: And that can become apparent from a public point of view as well—you know, media reports and—.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, sometimes these things can spill, and the governing bodies also include student representation, staff representation, who are typically union reps, and so, you know, there are all sorts of—. I'm not in any way saying that people are indiscreet, but there are all sorts of interests that are sitting around that table that have to be managed within a governance context. So, sometimes it can spill. And these tensions are not all-out war, but there are sometimes differences of view and they have to be worked through, and that's governance working properly, I think.
Hefin David AM: Okay, which is—some of the work you've suggested will help towards that.
Dr David Blaney: Yes.
Hefin David AM: And a last question: you've identified one university as high risk, five as medium, and two as low in the short to medium term. You're obviously not going to tell us which, but what I'm interested in is the direction of travel, and whether those that are 'medium'—are they at any point at risk of becoming 'high' in the near future?
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say that the direction of travel is that we're seeing an increased risk profile in the sector in Wales, and it's about the financial pressures that we've already discussed this morning. And that is why the efforts that the Minister has gone to to secure the Diamond settlement, and, indeed, other bits of money now and again, are so important. So, she's doing what she can, and that's really good, but we always knew that, between the point of the Diamond recommendations being made and the full implementation, there was going to be a valley to cross. The new machinery costs more as you phase out the old as well. So, the amount of funding was always going to be under pressure; there's a demographic dip, and there are the other contextual factors we've discussed. We always knew there was going to be a valley. And the institutions have been working very hard to try not to take cost out now that they really don't have to take out, because they don't want to reduce capacity, which they'll struggle to recover again when the financial position improves. So, they are seeing deficits, which are managed deficits, where they're spending more than their income in order just to keep the capacity in. So, they're being as responsible as we could expect them to be in this.
Hefin David AM: And, if you're back in a year or two's time, the next few years, are we confident that there won't be more in the high-risk category? You said you don't see collapse, but are we confident there won't be more in the high-risk category?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think what I would always say about this process is that it doesn't guarantee 100 per cent accuracy. We can only go on what we can see. So, I wouldn't—. HEFCW is innately cautious as an organisation, so I'm not going to say we're confident, but that doesn't mean to say we're worried either.
Hefin David AM: Right, okay. So, to answer my question: are we likely to see more in the high-risk category or not?
Dr David Blaney: We might.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Bethan Owen: And, just to add, I think the key bit of that is maintaining the attractiveness of Welsh universities to students, because a large proportion are coming not from just Wales, but from England and internationally—so, that's a key part—and also that our research portfolio is invested in, and that also brings economic benefits. So, I think those are the two that we are [correction: need to be] able to maintain: the institutions as attractive options for students, and that our research capacity is invested in.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. I've got a supplementary from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Just in the interest of transparency, are you able to tell us which universities are in which categories of risk?
Dr David Blaney: We don't publish that; we publish numbers. So, that's, I'm afraid, where we're going to stick.
Hefin David AM: They didn't even try to—[Inaudible.] [Laughter.]
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions then are from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Can you explain your overall approach to the 2019-20 allocations and what your priority for allocations has been?
Bethan Owen: We publish our funding allocations, and we published the 2019-20 allocations on 4 June. For 2019-20, we're allocating £149 million, and, as David said, this is the first year that we've been able to start putting funding, additional funding, in from the Diamond recommendations for investment in the sector. So, that means we've been able to increase our recurrent teaching funding by £7 million—not a significant amount, but it's a start. And we have maintained QR, which is our funding for research, quality research, and postgraduate research, at least at the same levels of £76 million, as it's been that in previous years. We've increased part-time funding by £1 million to £26 million, and we've started to increase support for expensive subjects—that's medicine, dentistry and conservatoire provision—and higher cost subjects—those are the sciences and the STEM. So, we made a start on that and increased that support by about £6 million to £20 million in total. And, in addition to that, we have strategic funding that we're maintaining for Reaching Wider projects and the Sêr Cymru project. And then, in addition to our recurrent funding, we have had strategic funding in our remit letters for the last two years. So, we're developing programmes for civic mission, community engagement, collaborations between higher education and further education, and, more recently, we had funding at the end of March to start to implement the recommendations of Graeme Reid's report for research investment, and also for developing mental health and well-being. That strategic funding is very welcome, but to be able to build those activities into our core funding, which we hope Diamond will bring, would be more sustainable for institutions.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Now, the Minister talks of one skills system. How do your allocations to the 2019-20 academic year support and incentivise collaboration between HE and FE?
Dr David Blaney: So, there are probably two dimensions to this. First of all, we have provided £3.5 million of separate funding specifically targeted to improve and increase collaboration between HE and FE. So, we put out a circular inviting proposals for that, and it was competitive, so we funded what was the best of the proposals, and we constrained it to be available only to pump-prime new activity or to add value to existing activity, but not just to keep things ticking over. We had seven bids submitted from across the three Welsh regions on a whole range of activities, which we probably haven't got time to go into now. I've got a long list here, but, for example, in south-east Wales, the University of South Wales is leading on a bid partnering with Cardiff University, Cardiff Met, with the Open University and all the FE players in the region. So, we were really pleased, actually. We tried to get it within regions, because that's how you get the biggest impact for learners in the area and also for smaller enterprises in terms of innovation work. So, that is a specific bit of funding designed to incentivise HE-FE collaboration. And then we direct fund a couple of FE institutions for delivery of higher education for historical reasons, and we also have our funding going through to support franchise activity between HE and FE. There are about 5,000 students who are studying HE programmes under franchise in FE colleges in Wales, and our funding method has, historically for some time now, protected that money. So, we try to prevent universities from taking the money out of franchise and onto campus, because we think it's important to try to encourage local provision within particular localities. And, certainly in areas where public transport infrastructure is perhaps not what it might be, for people to move to universities can be quite a disincentive, so—. But we encourage it that way as well.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Then, finally from me, the council's remit letter for the 2019-20 academic year from the Minister does ask you to consider how you'd increase openness and transparency around the use of fee income. So, what are the issues here, and how will you take this forward?
Bethan Owen: The reporting of the income and expenditure is largely provided, probably more so in narrative form in the accounts and the financial statements and annual reports of institutions. A number of institutions also provide graphs and more easily accessible information to understand the income and expenditure of universities. But we would accept that this information isn't easy to access at the moment. There are examples of good practice across the sector in presenting as simply as possible what the income sources are for universities and how they spend their money. And we're going to be working with the Welsh universities and sector bodies to improve the accessibility of that information for Welsh institutions. More transparent reporting of income and expenditure, and not just fee income, is actually very important for understanding how income cross-flows work in universities. Some reasonably simplistic analyses can assume that all the student fee just covers the direct costs of academic provision, but there's much more to the student experience than that, so there are costs: there are the infrastructure costs, the student support costs, even the community engagement and all the research activities bring benefits to the teaching and fee provision. So, more transparency of all the universities' income sources and expenditure and a better understanding of the income cross-flows and why you can't look at universities in isolation of student provision and research, you have to look at the whole—so, we'll be working with them to improve that information.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go to Hefin David now for some questions on part-time student funding.
Hefin David AM: Part-time student numbers are bucking the trend in Wales, as I understand it, and we are seeing a bigger increase in Wales of part-time numbers than elsewhere in the UK. How is that going to be sustainable within current arrangements?
Bethan Owen: We've allocated £26.5 million in 2019-20 to support part-time provision, and we have been able in 2019-20 to fund some growth. So, there is growth in that funding to allow those institutions and incentivise those institutions who have recruited more students than last year to continue to do so. That came at an overall additional cost of £1.9 million, and, based on what we're hearing from student support, we're expecting to see that requirement increase. So, it's one of the areas where we'll need to look at how we prioritise Diamond funding. And at the moment, our intention—but subject to knowing the quantum of it—is to continue to support and fund growth in part-time provision.
Hefin David AM: So, is it possible—? With the Welsh Government's policy of developing lifelong learning, is it possible that will be ever spread more thinly?
Dr David Blaney: That is the challenge, and there's a piece of work that we have in our sights to look again at part-time and what it is and what the various drivers are. There's a temptation, I think, at times, to see it solely in terms of skills for an economy, and it is important for reskilling and upskilling, but actually, it's important for other things as well. If we see higher education solely in terms of skilling an economy, we've missed an important part of the contribution that higher education makes. But part-time is really quite difficult, because there's part-time that is about upskilling, part time that's about reskilling, there's part-time for social purposes, there's employer-supported part-time, there's student—. So, there's a complexity there.
Hefin David AM: But they are more reactive to rises in fees.
Dr David Blaney: Well, there is a sense that they are more price sensitive, yes, and so the support regime that the Government is putting in place is important, and that probably has made a difference to the numbers of part-timers entering the system this last year. But I think we need to stake stock of what is important about part-time, what the market will deliver, what the market won't deliver, what we should fund and so on. And there's a complexity around all that, as I've indicated, which we need to do a bit of work on with the sector, with the student body as well, just to take some stock of this over the next year or so.
Hefin David AM: Could we end up seeing significant fee increases for part-time students?
Dr David Blaney: My sense is we won't. The Government wishes us to monitor, so we monitor, and that in itself is not straightforward, actually. But your comment about price sensitivity, I think, is really the nub of it. There's a limit to how much a fee increase would be acceptable to the part-time market. So, I think it's kind of self-regulating in that respect. I don't think we'll see massive fee increases; we might see a bit, but we won't see masses, I don't think.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now on funding for research and innovation, and also we'd like to talk a bit about a replacement for European Union funds. Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you very much. If I could turn specifically to research, we know, of course, that both the Diamond and Reid reviews called for QR funding to be maintained in real terms, but the allocation is exactly the same for 2019-20 as it has been for the past nine years. Have you carried out any kind of assessment of the impact of this level of research funding on universities and, indeed, on the Welsh economy?
Dr David Blaney: I'm sorry; I missed the beginning of that because I couldn't hear this headset.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân, could you repeat the question? Sorry. We had a bit of a problem with translation at the beginning.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, no problem. I was talking about the Diamond and Reid reviews at the beginning of my question and the fact that they had recommended that QR funding should be maintained in real terms. But, of course, the sum hasn't actually increased over a period of nine years.
Dr David Blaney: Okay. The reason the sum hasn't increased is because we haven't had enough money to be able to increase it and still meet the obligations we have to other bits of the HE system. We would dearly love to increase it. Both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid were very clear about the importance of being able to invest in our QR research funding, for a number of reasons. The capacity of the sector to be able to respond to funding opportunities elsewhere in the UK and across the rest of the world is itself determined by the size and the strength of the research base, which is sustained by QR funding. If they go for UK-based competitive research funding, that is typically constructed on the absolute assumption that QR will be part of that mix. So, they tend to fund to 80 per cent of the actual cost of the research, with the expectation that QR will plug the gap. And we know that, although the Welsh research base is extraordinarily productive, and really is punching above its weight in many ways—and I mentioned earlier the impact of the research base in the last research excellence framework—we know that, actually, it could do so much more, if it just had more scale. So, we fully endorse the reports from both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid that QR is important, and it's important also to be able to allow institutions to invest in research areas that emerge over time. It's almost impossible for a body like us, far less the Government, to know where these emerging strengths are going to come from, and QR provides the flexibility for institutions, which is absolutely fundamental to keeping the research base dynamic.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Therefore, you do have concerns that this isn't increasing—you have that concern of a lack of increase in the level of investment. But has any particular assessment been made of the impact of not increasing that funding?
Dr David Blaney: So, there is—. Graeme Reid's report produced an assessment of the correlation between QR funding and capacity to generate funding from other sources, and there's a very close correlation—
Sian Gwenllian AM: Has HEFCW done any assessment to look at the effect of underfunding research, to all intents and purposes?
Dr David Blaney: Not directly. We've relied on the expert assessment of people like Graeme Reid. It's sometimes more effective to have external experts making these points than us or the sector.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Your remit requires you to encourage universities to continue to develop one particular element of research, which is educational research. How does your allocation for 2019-20 contribute to that in terms of pedagogy and educational research specifically?
Dr David Blaney: Bethan, did you want to say something on this?
Bethan Owen: I was just going to add that, when we look at the funding that comes into our sector in Wales, compared with the rest of the UK, it's easy to see from the figures that our percentage of income that comes from research is smaller than in England, so the figures show that we receive less of the money that's available, which is a factor that results from us having less QR as a percentage, so we're in a situation where we get less of that UK funding that's available as well.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, there's a knock-on to that; that's what you're trying to say. But from the point of view of my question on educational research—?
Dr David Blaney: So, we have provided funding in 2017-18 and 2018-19 to WISERD Education, which is a research collaboration between a number of the Welsh universities, specifically looking at educational issues, and we're providing additional funding to that to add value to the Welsh Government's existing evaluation of the progress of pioneer schools in developing the three-to-15 curriculum in Wales. I won't go into the full detail of it now, but it's a five-partner project feeding into this with researchers from Cardiff, Cardiff Met, Trinity Saint David, Aber, Bangor and the University of South Wales. So, it's a collaborative effort, and we have, in the past, also funded WISERD Education, so it's an important research facility and increasingly being used, I'm delighted to say, by Welsh Government in underpinning its own policy thinking.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And likewise, in 2019-20, there will be allocations specifically for this.
Dr David Blaney: It's a bit early to say yet. We haven't allocated anything specifically in the main allocations that we've put out. There might be others to come, but we're not yet in a position to say.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Well, could you provide the remit letter from—[Inaudible.]—do that? You have to do everything in the remit letters.
Dr David Blaney: We do what we can to pay due regard to the remit letters, as the wording goes. So, we have it in our sights, but we're not yet ready to make announcements.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then turning to the impact of the loss of funds were we to leave the European Union. Of course, this is going to have a far-reaching impact on future research, and the Reid review has made recommendations to mitigate this impact. So, what assessment have you made of how allocations will be able to help universities to transition away from EU funding?
Dr David Blaney: So, again, the Reid review has done a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of an impact assessment for us. And we endorse, just as the Government has endorsed, the recommendations from Reid. The Government has committed in principle to delivering Reid. The challenge is finding the money, and we fully understand that. There has been an additional £6.6 million allocated for research very recently by the Government, which we have put out specifically in line with some of the recommendations from Reid. So, that's a start, but that's not sustainable funding, and it's not enough, really, but it is a good and welcome start. Reid was also not just talking about the money, but also talking about the way in which the Welsh research base both represents itself and also engages with UK-wide developments. And in response to that, we have recently issued our own vision for research and innovation, which was developed over a number of months, following the Reid report closely, working with stakeholders, including the Welsh Government, in order to try and set a vision for how we respond to the challenges facing research in the future, including the reduction, potentially, of access to EU funds. And a lot of that is—. These Reid recommendations all come together; they're coherent. A lot of that requires investment in the Welsh research base in order to be able to go for competitive funding at a UK level. Since it seems possible at least, and possibly even likely, that any money retrieved from not having to invest in the EU will sit in London rather than necessarily being devolved to the devolved administrations—we understand fully the Welsh Government's position on that, and we don't disagree with it. But either way, we need a research base that's able to compete, and that's why the investment recommendations of Reid are so important.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. I think Reid was saying that there may be pots of money out there that aren't being accessed at the moment by Welsh universities. Are you able to help then within that process?
Bethan Owen: One aspect that we do intend to fund—and this is from Diamond, as well as Reid—is to place funding back into the system for innovation. We're consulting currently, with the intention, if the funding is available to us, clearly, in the year 2020-21, to provide £15 million back into the sector in innovation funding. That's funding that we had to take out when the new fee system came in. That is part of promoting the innovation, and part of the research portfolio as well.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Is that part of the UKRI funding? There is some £7 billion in the hands of that organisation, as I understand it, and there may be some possibilities there too.
Bethan Owen: That £15 million will be money that comes from us, but the intention is that the money will go in in order to improve universities' ability to access that funding from UKRI. So, Innovate UK would be the part of UKRI—and that we improve our ability to get funding from outside Wales. And, then, Graeme Reid says the same thing in terms of research—that we need more funding to do the same thing there.
Dr David Blaney: And, then, there's also the recommendation from Reid that Wales needs to be better embedded in the conversations that are going on on a UK-wide basis, so the Welsh Government has established a presence in London in respect of research, and we have a colleague in HEFCW who is fractionally embedded in the United Kingdom Research and Innovation specifically to respond to that recommendation. And that is actually paying dividends; we are strengthening our relationship with the UK machinery, which is essential if we're to understand where they're heading and what their funding bids are all about, and even to be able to influence those.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, Siân?
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, as far as research is concerned, it's not all doom and gloom.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, I mean, you know, things are looking up. There is money coming in and if the Government, as it is able to, can find money and can invest in this area, then that will help.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Just a couple of questions from me, then, before you close: what is your recent work on the 'basket of goods' show regarding student accommodation costs? And have any institutions used their 2019-20 fee and access plans to make commitments to more affordable accommodation for under-represented groups?
Dr David Blaney: First of all, on the basket of goods, the work we're doing now—we're currently in train in terms of analysing the data in respect of the basket of goods, so this is slightly premature, but our early look at the data indicates that there are no increases in costs, accommodation or other, that would cause us concern. So, it doesn't look like institutions are succumbing to the temptation to up their income streams from other costs. So, that's good. In terms of the fee and access plans, the sector has committed over £28 million of investment in student support-related activities from the fee and access plans, and that includes, in many instances, bursaries that are designed to help students cope with the costs of accommodation and the cost of living more generally. The support is provided for a range of purposes, but a couple of examples, just very quickly: Trinity Saint David, since we've talked about them a lot today, they offer £1,000 bursary to care leavers, which is in addition to local authority support for care leavers. Bangor also offer targeted support for care leavers, and these are often also extended, so they apply not just in term time, but throughout the holiday time as well, because people still need to live during the holidays. So, there is investment going in from the fee plans in that support.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And just one final question from me then, going back to Trinity Saint David: are you concerned that the governing body of Trinity Saint David has taken decisions that have led to that material uncertainty, and is that unprecedented in Wales?
Dr David Blaney: My view is that the decisions that the governing body made were, in our view, perfectly rational decisions to have made, given the information they had at the time. So, what's happened is that a number of unforeseen events have arisen, which, actually, I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to have foreseen, and it's just a combination of these that has caused the cash pressure. So, I don't see this as a governance failure, and they are engaging with those challenges.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you both for attending and for answering all our questions this morning? You did say that you would give the committee a note on reserves for the last four years, so we'd be grateful if we could receive that. And, as usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you, again, for your time this morning.
Dr David Blaney: Thank you.
Bethan Owen: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Deputy Minister requesting further information for our scrutiny of the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from me to the Children's Commissioner for Wales also asking for further information to pursue our scrutiny of the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter to the Minister for Education asking for an update on the framework for young people educated other than at school. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to propose that we resolve to meet in private for the remainder of this meeting and for the whole meeting on 10 July. Are Members content? Thank you.
Query:
What was the government's plan towards the structural change?
Answer:
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Angela Burns AM shared with the findings from multiple representations from students and brought up the concerns of the consistency of funding. Dr David Blaney commented that causing a run was a serious consideration and it was a legal obligation to meet the commitments. So the current structural change would not equal that certain offshoots or divisions might close since the oversight and monitoring, the governments' primary consideration was always the interest of the students. Unless there was a suitable solution to all, material uncertainty for students should not be brought up.
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies, and I'm very pleased to welcome Angela Burns, who is substituting for Suzy this morning. We've also received apologies from Dawn Bowden. Can I also welcome Siân Gwenllian to the meeting? Siân is joining us from her constituency office via video-conference. Can I ask Members if they've got any declarations of interest, please? Hefin.
Hefin David AM: Apologies. I'm currently registered as an associate lecturer at Cardiff Metropolitan University, although I haven't done any work for them for some time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you very much. We'll move on, then, to item 2 this morning, which is our evidence session on the higher education new academic year allocations. I'm very pleased to welcome David Blaney, who is chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, and Bethan Owen, who is deputy chief executive of HEFCW. Thank you, both, for attending this morning. We're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first questions are from Angela Burns.
Angela Burns AM: Good morning. Thank you very much, indeed. I just wanted to talk about, really, the financial sustainability of the higher education sector because, as we know, there's been all sorts of things going on in the press. So, can I just start with, actually, quite a technical question and ask you what the financial indicators look like for the universities here in Wales, and are there particular indicators that are really flashing warning signals to you?
Dr David Blaney: Well, shall I just start with a couple of contextualising comments and Bethan can come in then with some detail? It's undeniably the case there are financial challenges facing our universities. They result from three main causes: one is the impact of the demographic dip of 18-year-olds, which is deeper and longer in Wales than it is elsewhere in the UK. There are increased pension costs and, actually, increased costs generally. And, of course, we also have current uncertainty as a result of the Augar review in England, and whether that might play into Wales, and also Brexit. These challenges are not unique to Wales; the majority of the UK universities are actually taking out cost one way or another. So, this is not a Welsh issue. Before the Diamond review of fees and funding in Wales, there was a pre-existing funding gap in resource between England and Wales, and even now, that's still the case. So, Welsh higher education institutions are approximately £40 million worse off than they would be in the English system. That's a challenge, and that is a result from a political decision to invest in students, and that's fine. The money's gone into the system but it hasn't gone into universities, necessarily. So, these are serious challenges for institutions to manage, but I think it is a managed situation. We're not seeing a crisis; we are seeing some real challenges, and there is a distinction, I think, between—. We have to understand, though, that taking out cost to balance the books has a detrimental effect on the capacity. Obviously it impacts on the people who lose their jobs immediately, but there's a medium to longer term impact on the capacity of the system to deliver for Wales. They are taking out capacity; they're not cutting at fat now, they're cutting out core capacity. And so, the range of the curriculum, the range of research and innovation, the range of the contribution that universities can make will be diminished by that. And against that backdrop, the introduction of the Diamond reforms is hugely important—delivery of that is going to be really important—and we are really pleased to see the Minister able to meet her commitments in respect of that. The Diamond money is coming in. This forthcoming year will be the first year we see an increase in the resource, through us, to higher education. And the projections in future years are better still, and that will be extremely important. The performance of the sector is very good; we had the national student survey results out yesterday. Wales is still the best in the UK, which is excellent. We have the best impact from research in Wales across the UK. So, all of that is very positive, but that is also being done at some cost. There are some very tired staff in universities, and we've seen some stuff in the press recently about some of the impact of stress there as well.
Angela Burns AM: Can I bring you back to the financial element of that? Can I just ask a question: what are the university reserves looking like at present?
Dr David Blaney: Here, I refer to my learned friend.
Bethan Owen: The reserves are a measure. There's a difference between the distributable reserves—I don't have those numbers before me, but looking at reserves, what is more important are those reserves that are available as cash or liquid cash. So, universities have reserves, but a large amount of that is tied up in their estates, so they're not immediately realisable. So, one of the key measures that we're looking at, which is even more important than surpluses and deficit, is the operating cash that our universities are generating at the moment. When we look at operating cash in 2017-18, they were generating, as a percentage of income, about 7.6 per cent, which contrasts with nearly 10 per cent for the same year for English institutions. And that represents their capacity to generate surplus cash to meet their costs, which now, increasingly, include the costs of servicing their borrowings. So, again, because capital funding has not been as available to universities as it was, they've invested in their estates and that's largely been funded by borrowings. The costs of those borrowings have to be met on an annual basis, so that's becoming an increasing proportion of the operating cash that universities have.
Angela Burns AM: I just asked that question because I know that about four years ago, the universities were sitting on substantial reserves and were less than keen to deploy them back into actually using them for the students—it was more about building up the war chest, if you like, of the universities. And I just really wanted to have an understanding of how that picture might have changed over the last four years and are they actually skinnier cats now, rather than before.
Bethan Owen: We can get you that analysis, but even four years ago, I think the definition of exactly what's meant by reserves, it's really important to look at what are distributable reserves as opposed to the assets that universities have.
Angela Burns AM: Yes, I do understand the difference.
Bethan Owen: And, there are also differences in the way that universities have secured funding for investing in their estates. So, for example, Cardiff University have had a bond rather than borrowing, which you draw down as you're spending. So, in the short term, the reserves of Cardiff will appear as though they have significant cash balances, but all of those are restricted for investment in the estate and, over the next two or three years, will be utilised for that.
Angela Burns AM: So, overall, you're painting a picture of a sector that's under a significant degree of financial stress, and this is obviously using your key financial indicators. Do you monitor each and every university, or do you wait for them to come back and tell you what their situation is?
Bethan Owen: We monitor, we receive forecasts, five-year forecasts, and we meet frequently with all our universities now. It varies, depending on the risks of the universities, as to how frequently we meet, but we're actually meeting with every university because even the forecast that we received last July, the changes, even in the 12-month period, are significant enough for us to need a better understanding of what the latest position is. The forecasts, if I just run through—. We had a sector that, in 2017-18, had a deficit. Although it had a turnover and income of £1.5 billion, which had increased, nonetheless it had a small deficit of 0.4 per cent of income in 2017-18, which was an improvement on the deficit the year before of 1.7 per cent, but notably, again, the sector in England were looking at surpluses of 3 per cent to 4 per cent in the same period. The forecasts that we had this time last year were indicating that, for 2018-19, we should have a sector that's roughly in a break-even position, but that has to be caveated with waiting for new forecasts in July, where there will have to be a reflection of the pension costs, and there have been significant changes in pension costs, both for the teachers' pension scheme and the universities' superannuation scheme as well, and those will be significant costs that universities have to build into their forecasts at a time when their income, certainly their fee income, is not increasing, and that is the challenge.
Angela Burns AM: Are we going to lose any universities in the next couple of years?
Dr David Blaney: I don't think so. As I said earlier on, we're not seeing a crisis, we're seeing really challenging circumstances for institutions to manage. At the moment, our sense is they are managing them, so one of the things we try to do is to make sure that, insofar as we can see it, we are making sure that the institutions are alert to the challenges they're facing, and are actually engaging those challenges properly, and we are seeing that at the moment. So I think what we will see if the pressure continues unabated is more costs being taken out, so more jobs being lost, more capacity being lost, but that's not the same as falling over. I don't see people falling over. There is always the possibility of structural change within the sector, and that might be one of the solutions that institutions think about, but it's not a policy position, and it's not always a good short-term response to crisis anyway, actually. But I think, as I say, we're in a managed situation, but the challenges are quite acute. But I don't see an institution falling over in the foreseeable future.
Angela Burns AM: When you talk about structural change, are you referring to the fact that certain offshoots or divisions might close? I bring this up because I'm the Assembly Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, and I have had multiple representations from students, and their parents, who are about to go to Lampeter and who've been told that courses are being restructured, there's a massive staff loss, and they have concerns about whether the three-year commitment they're about to make to a course is going to be able to be sustained. So I am trying to drill down a little bit, because I think it's only fair for the students to know what they're up against, and also it's a bit like in the great depression—you can start a run on something, can't you? Because if enough people believe it, then suddenly enough people will stop going to what is an excellent little university, really top-quality in medieval literature, in archaeology. And I'm just talking about one, but I know there are problems in other universities around Wales, so I just wondered if you could comment on that and also what processes you as HEFCW might have in place to protect any student who does find themselves in a situation where their course appears to be disappearing before their eyes.
Dr David Blaney: So, there's quite a lot in that question, actually. Let me try not to forget any of the elements. First of all, your comment about causing a run is a serious consideration. So, if we look at the debate that happened in the Senedd last week, from my reading of the transcript, it was actually quite a balanced debate where pretty much every contributor made reference to the contribution that higher education is making. There was reference to the national student survey scores, and in many ways Wales is the best place in the UK to come and be a student, because you are looked after properly in Wales. But there was also a perfectly legitimate exploration of whether or not there's a crisis, and if you look at the way in which that was represented in the media, the crisis bit stuck and the rest of it didn't. At the point where the sector is trying very hard to recruit students, it's really quite unhelpful that you get that sort of representation. So we do need to make sure, I think, all of us, that we try to avoid a situation where there can be media amplification of a problem that's not actually as acute as the media are portraying it, and that is very harsh. I'm not being critical of the political process here, but it has ripples and we do need to be careful that we don't start a run on this. In terms of the specifics at Lampeter, we understand that there are no plans to close any of the departments, and there certainly will not be plans to pull the rug out from under continuing students. That is just not what institutions do. So there's an absolute obligation on them to meet their commitments, and that's a contractual obligation anyway, so it's a legal obligation. But we also have a quality machinery that we operate where we would expect institutions to be able to demonstrate that they've put in place appropriate arrangements to ensure that students can finish their programmes of study. So they're not going to be recruiting students to programmes that they're not planning to continue—they just are not going to do that. And if you think about it in a market context, it would be suicidal for a university to treat their students like that.
Angela Burns AM: But I have to ask these questions because the auditor was very clear that there was a material uncertainty in Trinity Saint David's financial plans.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, I understand that, so let’s come back to the material uncertainty. [Interruption.] No, I understand, and that's fine. What I'm hoping to try and express is that we have absolute confidence that the institutions will not do the dirty on their students. They will look after their students and if they're recruiting to programmes, they are recruiting to programmes that they are planning to run, and run through to completion. And the expectations that we place on them in terms of our quality assurance machinery is precisely that—when they are engaged in portfolio change, they have to look after the interest of the students that they currently have. In terms of our oversight and monitoring, our primary consideration, again, is the interest of the students. They are the people who have, in many ways, least influence over what happens in terms of the way an institution is managed. Although, they do have a voice and, actually, the arrangements for the student voice in Wales are, again, better than elsewhere in the UK. But, nonetheless, we do not wish to see students becoming innocent victims of difficulties of management and financing. And so that is our primary consideration when we're looking at these institutions. Our institutional risk review process is fundamentally designed to make sure that institutions are grappling with their problems before they become a crisis. So, we have machinery, which has 70/80 different factors and hundreds of questions that we ask twice a year, to interrogate the performance of the institutions and to make sure that we are seeing them managing the issues that they're facing. So, it's not the challenges you face, it's the way you face your challenges—it's a cliché—and, at the moment, they are managing them, but if we were in any way concerned that they weren't, the people who are most at risk in that context are the students and we will be intervening to make sure that they were cited, and we do intervene when we have to.
Angela Burns AM: Well, following on from what you said, I've just got two really specific technical questions, then, to ask, because you said that you look across the whole scope to make sure that they are meeting all of their correct liquidity ratios and so on. So, considering how much is invested in their estates, are you happy that each university's estates strategy and its financing is prudent and has appropriate governing-body oversight in place?
Dr David Blaney: Yes, so the estates strategies that institutions operate are overseen by either the full governing body or relevant sub-committees in respect of every institution, so there is proper governance oversight. And in all of those instances, there is staff and student engagement as well in the strategic approach on estates. So, the machinery is in place—
Angela Burns AM: Because it's the big thing that drives most of university borrowing, isn't it?
Dr David Blaney: Indeed, it is.
Angela Burns AM: So, if our universities are on a sticky wicket, we just need to know that the borrowing that they're undertaking is absolutely prudently assessed and is appropriate. So, as long as you're content, if I can hear you say that—[Laughter.]
Dr David Blaney: Okay. We're content on two fronts: one is that the governance machinery within the institutions is structured appropriately to look at that, but also that if the institutions are wanting to engage in anything other than relatively trivial borrowing, they have to get our consent as well. And what we don't do is second-guess everything, but what we do do is make sure that the governing body, or its relevant committees, have been asking the right questions. So, there are two bits to this.
Angela Burns AM: And then—sorry.
Bethan Owen: Can I just add to that, then?
Angela Burns AM: Yes, of course.
Bethan Owen: In asking for the forecasts, we have reinforced this year the importance of universities looking at different scenarios. So, to be looking at the demographic and maybe in the past, where there's potentially been growth in the system and universities have built that into their forecast, we have explicitly asked this year that we are provided—not just the governing body—with the scenario where there is no growth in the income. That's not the core forecast, but a scenario, so that it's quite clear how reliant the forecasts are on that growth, and if that growth doesn't come through, what the contingency plans are for ensuring that all the cost commitments can be met. And we should probably just differentiate between—we have a role before borrowings are entered into, but all the best forecasts in the world can never quite predict, certainly what's happened in the last two years, probably, in universities. So, there are significant borrowings that are now committed to and the key measures we are looking at are universities' capacity to meet their covenants and their repayments under those borrowings, because that's essential for maintaining their liquidity.
Angela Burns AM: Which actually, neatly, thank you, brings me to my last question, which is: have any universities broken those loan covenants or been close to breaking them, unable to pay their borrowings as and when they fall due?
Bethan Owen: There was a significant change in accounting standards in 2015, financial reporting standard 102, so most universities had to renegotiate their covenants, but it was because the accounts were looking very different. The accounting standards brought about changes in how income was recognised and how some service concession arrangements, largely student accommodation arrangements, and pension costs, significantly, were recognised in the accounts. So, most universities have had to renegotiate covenants, but we're not aware of any who've had to renegotiate due to covenant breaches, other than one which the University of Wales Trinity Saint David disclosed in their financial statements—that they did need to renegotiate their financing arrangements, which they have done earlier this year, and they have now negotiated new covenants. It's a core part of financial management in universities now that you manage your relationship with your lender as well as with us. Breaching covenants in themselves is different to doing that with your lender being unaware and the factors being within your control. So, again, from that perspective, we have the covenants built into our forecasts, we require the forecasts to show how the university are planning to be within their covenants. The nature of those covenants vary, but most of them require a measure of cash flow, a ratio between the cash generated and the cost of debt, so there is close monitoring that is required because of the borrowing in the system, as well as our ongoing monitoring as well.
Angela Burns AM: Thank you, Bethan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Just before we move on to Hefin David, can I just ask you what your view, then, is on the statement included by auditors in the accounts of Trinity Saint David that there is material uncertainty?
Bethan Owen: Yes, I'll pick up on that. The material uncertainty largely relates—there is a note in the accounts that explains the factors that are being taken into account, but it largely relates to some significant cash receipts that have been subject to timing delays and the fact that the timing of these is essentially outside the control of the institution. The main delay relates to the receipt of funding for the Egin project, which was due to be received from the Swansea city deal. That funding has been delayed, but the sums due to the university are still due to the university—it's the issue of the timing of those receipts that is causing a cash pressure. Receipt of that funding would certainly reduce the cash flow pressure at the university at the moment. Just in terms of cash flows, all universities have to ensure that they are maintaining enough cash in their system to meet their payments as they fall due. Most of their costs are incurred on a monthly basis, staff costs in particular, but the income flows into universities are now less regular. In days gone by, that funding would largely flow from us and that would also come on a monthly basis. The funding from the Student Loans Company now, for example, comes in chunks. A quarter of that money comes in in October, a quarter in February, and the majority of it, half of it, doesn't come into the university in cash until May. So, that's quite a different cash management scenario for universities to manage; it requires holding cash balances to do it.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Just before I bring Hefin in, we're going to need to have a bit of agility, as Dai Lloyd would call it, in our questioning and our answers if we're going to cover the ground that we need to cover. So, Hefin.
Hefin David AM: How can we be assured that governance arrangements across the eight institutions are sufficiently rigorous but also consistent?
Dr David Blaney: So, the first point to make, of course, is that universities are autonomous, as you know—
Hefin David AM: I've just written 'independent and autonomous'.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, all of that. And they are charities and so on, so they have expectations in respect of that in any case. The university governing body obviously is an important part of the machinery, particularly in terms of generating constructive challenge for the executive within universities. The governing bodies all are expected to behave in a way that is consistent with the guidance produced by the Committee of University Chairs, the CUC guide, which identifies good practice. So, it’s a higher education code of governance and all Welsh universities work to that code. That code is itself up for review at the moment. So, that is an opportunity for that to be strengthened. Just in terms of governing bodies, it's also important that governing bodies engage in a process of continual refreshing, because that gives you a greater variety of perspectives, which is important. But it’s also important they have people who understand the higher education business as well as from other contexts. Getting that mix right is important. As it happens at the moment, there are also issues about ethnicity and gender balance. Half the chairs of Welsh university governing bodies are female. Half the vice-chancellors are female. That’s a positive position for Wales to be in. But I think our view would be that when you get an increase in the contextual pressures that we’ve been discussing already this morning, the role of the governing body actually becomes even more significant. So, we have encouraged the sector, both the chairmen of the university councils, but also the vice-chancellors, to engage in a process of an independent review of governance in Wales. We’ll be alongside that. We’ll be supporting that. But, actually, it’s important that they own it. And it hasn’t been hard for us to encourage that—they have been keen to take this opportunity to take stock. The Welsh higher education system is part of a UK system—they don’t want to be a million miles away from the rest of the UK in terms of expectations, but there is scope in Wales, given the scale of the sector, to actually construct something that is more challenging, I think, in terms of expectations, than might be the common denominator across the UK, and maybe some more exemplification. Importantly, in this exercise, we are not just interested in governance process. It’s going to be quite hard to do this, but I’m very keen that we engage—and the sector are up for this—in governance culture, because, actually, you can do process checks and you’ll have the right structure of committees and have the right sort of papers going, but, in the end, it’s the dynamic within that room and who’s asking which questions and how well informed they are, and whether it's an open culture or is it a defensive culture—these are really what influences the quality of decision making.
Hefin David AM: And how different are those cultures across institutions?
Dr David Blaney: I think it’s very hard to say. We don’t sit in the governing bodies of those institutions. Very occasionally we get to observe one. Typically, that’s at a point where there are sufficient difficulties going on that we feel that we need to—
Hefin David AM: Do you have the option to observe at any point?
Dr David Blaney: We can't insist, I don't think.
Bethan Owen: We can ask to.
Dr David Blaney: We can ask. But in the main, actually, our presence would change the dynamic of that anyway, so I'm not sure that's necessarily helpful. But we are keen to see what we can achieve with the sector in addressing these issues of what constitutes constructive challenge.
Hefin David AM: I take from that that there might be different approaches in different institutions. Is your aim to see consistency in the same approaches, then?
Dr David Blaney: I think we’d like to see a consistent minimum set of expectations. I think there are differences, because there are people involved. In the end, it’s about personalities, it’s about people’s background and it’s about their knowledge. And we have a role to play in this as well, so we have a toolkit that we produce for governors, which, essentially, is a set of information that locates their university in the context of the UK, across a number of factors. So, if they had been told something that is not perhaps as true as it might be by the executive, they can see that in the data. Whether that toolkit needs a refresh—I’m sure it probably does, it’s been there for a while now—. So, part of that is what information we can provide to help governing bodies be properly informed as well.
Hefin David AM: Yes, and this is the independence and autonomy thing. This is quite distant from Government—unlike other institutions, where you can prescribe some of these approaches.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, and in the end I don't think there's any pushback from the sector in terms of wanting to operate in accordance with best practice.
Hefin David AM: Yes, and I totally defend independence and autonomy.
Dr David Blaney: Absolutely. The challenge is all of us being clear what constitutes best practice.
Hefin David AM: So, what about risk appetite? Do you feel that any governing bodies are exhibiting what might be considered to be an imprudent risk appetite?
Dr David Blaney: I don't think so, and this manifests itself in two ways. So, we would see this coming through in forecasts, and we would see it coming through in requests for borrowings, predominantly. Actually, we'd see it in other ways as well. Our links into institutions are many and various, and we have our formal stuff, but we all have links into institutions that are informal and we—. One of the beauties of the scale of the sector in Wales is we can see the institutions in a way that they can't hope to in England. It's just completely different. And so we would see it in other ways. But we have, in some instances, I think it's fair to say, helped institutions to think again about some of their aspirations. So, where we've seen things and we think, 'That just looks ridiculously optimistic,' we've just asked the questions. We don't say, 'No, you can't do that,' because they are autonomous, they make the decisions, but we try to make sure that they're asking the right questions.
Hefin David AM: So, would you see that governing bodies are falling short in doing that themselves, in that, where they become strategic decisions that require due diligence, are the governing bodies themselves presenting that challenge? Or the fact you've just said that, does that suggest to us that, actually, they are falling short?
Dr David Blaney: I think there's a mixture of things going on. We have a slightly different perspective and we have a perspective that is very intimately informed in terms of how the institution is performing. So, you have a governing body with a range of perspectives, and you will also have people who are very committed and very enthusiastic about the institution, and just occasionally it's helpful to get a slightly external perspective on these things. So, I don't think it's a shortfall as such, but I just think—
Hefin David AM: The kind of honest broker role, kind of.
Dr David Blaney: The machinery depends on having a body like HEFCW doing some of that role, and the people who lend money to institutions are absolutely clear about that. So, we have relationships with the banks; they come and see us every now and again—typically not to talk about individual clients but just to talk about what we do and how we do it. Interestingly, for example, when Michael Barber got up before Christmas and said there will be no bail-outs of universities, we had banks on the phone to us within a couple of days, wanting just to talk about how it is in Wales and is it still how it used to be. So, they are very keenly aware of what we do. So, it's not really a governance failure; it's just that the machinery includes us.
Hefin David AM: Okay, that's important. And one of the things, from a distance—I mean, I've been involved in different ways in an institution, and looking at the institutions from a distance. There are people, as you say, involved, and people always make the difference in different cultures. Do you find that the relationships between executive teams and governors is effective, and are they sufficiently robust and challenging as well? Those executive permanent staff and the governors—is there challenge there?
Dr David Blaney: I would say, in the main, yes. Occasionally, we help the governors to ask the right questions, so occasionally that external perspective we've just discussed is helpful in that regard. Actually, there are times when there are tensions between the executive and governing bodies, inevitably—that's not something that's remarkable—and we can feel that as well. We have conversations with both governing bodies and executives.
Hefin David AM: And that can become apparent from a public point of view as well—you know, media reports and—.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, sometimes these things can spill, and the governing bodies also include student representation, staff representation, who are typically union reps, and so, you know, there are all sorts of—. I'm not in any way saying that people are indiscreet, but there are all sorts of interests that are sitting around that table that have to be managed within a governance context. So, sometimes it can spill. And these tensions are not all-out war, but there are sometimes differences of view and they have to be worked through, and that's governance working properly, I think.
Hefin David AM: Okay, which is—some of the work you've suggested will help towards that.
Dr David Blaney: Yes.
Hefin David AM: And a last question: you've identified one university as high risk, five as medium, and two as low in the short to medium term. You're obviously not going to tell us which, but what I'm interested in is the direction of travel, and whether those that are 'medium'—are they at any point at risk of becoming 'high' in the near future?
Dr David Blaney: I think it's fair to say that the direction of travel is that we're seeing an increased risk profile in the sector in Wales, and it's about the financial pressures that we've already discussed this morning. And that is why the efforts that the Minister has gone to to secure the Diamond settlement, and, indeed, other bits of money now and again, are so important. So, she's doing what she can, and that's really good, but we always knew that, between the point of the Diamond recommendations being made and the full implementation, there was going to be a valley to cross. The new machinery costs more as you phase out the old as well. So, the amount of funding was always going to be under pressure; there's a demographic dip, and there are the other contextual factors we've discussed. We always knew there was going to be a valley. And the institutions have been working very hard to try not to take cost out now that they really don't have to take out, because they don't want to reduce capacity, which they'll struggle to recover again when the financial position improves. So, they are seeing deficits, which are managed deficits, where they're spending more than their income in order just to keep the capacity in. So, they're being as responsible as we could expect them to be in this.
Hefin David AM: And, if you're back in a year or two's time, the next few years, are we confident that there won't be more in the high-risk category? You said you don't see collapse, but are we confident there won't be more in the high-risk category?
Dr David Blaney: Well, I think what I would always say about this process is that it doesn't guarantee 100 per cent accuracy. We can only go on what we can see. So, I wouldn't—. HEFCW is innately cautious as an organisation, so I'm not going to say we're confident, but that doesn't mean to say we're worried either.
Hefin David AM: Right, okay. So, to answer my question: are we likely to see more in the high-risk category or not?
Dr David Blaney: We might.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Bethan Owen: And, just to add, I think the key bit of that is maintaining the attractiveness of Welsh universities to students, because a large proportion are coming not from just Wales, but from England and internationally—so, that's a key part—and also that our research portfolio is invested in, and that also brings economic benefits. So, I think those are the two that we are [correction: need to be] able to maintain: the institutions as attractive options for students, and that our research capacity is invested in.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. I've got a supplementary from Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Just in the interest of transparency, are you able to tell us which universities are in which categories of risk?
Dr David Blaney: We don't publish that; we publish numbers. So, that's, I'm afraid, where we're going to stick.
Hefin David AM: They didn't even try to—[Inaudible.] [Laughter.]
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. The next questions then are from Janet Finch-Saunders.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Can you explain your overall approach to the 2019-20 allocations and what your priority for allocations has been?
Bethan Owen: We publish our funding allocations, and we published the 2019-20 allocations on 4 June. For 2019-20, we're allocating £149 million, and, as David said, this is the first year that we've been able to start putting funding, additional funding, in from the Diamond recommendations for investment in the sector. So, that means we've been able to increase our recurrent teaching funding by £7 million—not a significant amount, but it's a start. And we have maintained QR, which is our funding for research, quality research, and postgraduate research, at least at the same levels of £76 million, as it's been that in previous years. We've increased part-time funding by £1 million to £26 million, and we've started to increase support for expensive subjects—that's medicine, dentistry and conservatoire provision—and higher cost subjects—those are the sciences and the STEM. So, we made a start on that and increased that support by about £6 million to £20 million in total. And, in addition to that, we have strategic funding that we're maintaining for Reaching Wider projects and the Sêr Cymru project. And then, in addition to our recurrent funding, we have had strategic funding in our remit letters for the last two years. So, we're developing programmes for civic mission, community engagement, collaborations between higher education and further education, and, more recently, we had funding at the end of March to start to implement the recommendations of Graeme Reid's report for research investment, and also for developing mental health and well-being. That strategic funding is very welcome, but to be able to build those activities into our core funding, which we hope Diamond will bring, would be more sustainable for institutions.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Now, the Minister talks of one skills system. How do your allocations to the 2019-20 academic year support and incentivise collaboration between HE and FE?
Dr David Blaney: So, there are probably two dimensions to this. First of all, we have provided £3.5 million of separate funding specifically targeted to improve and increase collaboration between HE and FE. So, we put out a circular inviting proposals for that, and it was competitive, so we funded what was the best of the proposals, and we constrained it to be available only to pump-prime new activity or to add value to existing activity, but not just to keep things ticking over. We had seven bids submitted from across the three Welsh regions on a whole range of activities, which we probably haven't got time to go into now. I've got a long list here, but, for example, in south-east Wales, the University of South Wales is leading on a bid partnering with Cardiff University, Cardiff Met, with the Open University and all the FE players in the region. So, we were really pleased, actually. We tried to get it within regions, because that's how you get the biggest impact for learners in the area and also for smaller enterprises in terms of innovation work. So, that is a specific bit of funding designed to incentivise HE-FE collaboration. And then we direct fund a couple of FE institutions for delivery of higher education for historical reasons, and we also have our funding going through to support franchise activity between HE and FE. There are about 5,000 students who are studying HE programmes under franchise in FE colleges in Wales, and our funding method has, historically for some time now, protected that money. So, we try to prevent universities from taking the money out of franchise and onto campus, because we think it's important to try to encourage local provision within particular localities. And, certainly in areas where public transport infrastructure is perhaps not what it might be, for people to move to universities can be quite a disincentive, so—. But we encourage it that way as well.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Then, finally from me, the council's remit letter for the 2019-20 academic year from the Minister does ask you to consider how you'd increase openness and transparency around the use of fee income. So, what are the issues here, and how will you take this forward?
Bethan Owen: The reporting of the income and expenditure is largely provided, probably more so in narrative form in the accounts and the financial statements and annual reports of institutions. A number of institutions also provide graphs and more easily accessible information to understand the income and expenditure of universities. But we would accept that this information isn't easy to access at the moment. There are examples of good practice across the sector in presenting as simply as possible what the income sources are for universities and how they spend their money. And we're going to be working with the Welsh universities and sector bodies to improve the accessibility of that information for Welsh institutions. More transparent reporting of income and expenditure, and not just fee income, is actually very important for understanding how income cross-flows work in universities. Some reasonably simplistic analyses can assume that all the student fee just covers the direct costs of academic provision, but there's much more to the student experience than that, so there are costs: there are the infrastructure costs, the student support costs, even the community engagement and all the research activities bring benefits to the teaching and fee provision. So, more transparency of all the universities' income sources and expenditure and a better understanding of the income cross-flows and why you can't look at universities in isolation of student provision and research, you have to look at the whole—so, we'll be working with them to improve that information.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to go to Hefin David now for some questions on part-time student funding.
Hefin David AM: Part-time student numbers are bucking the trend in Wales, as I understand it, and we are seeing a bigger increase in Wales of part-time numbers than elsewhere in the UK. How is that going to be sustainable within current arrangements?
Bethan Owen: We've allocated £26.5 million in 2019-20 to support part-time provision, and we have been able in 2019-20 to fund some growth. So, there is growth in that funding to allow those institutions and incentivise those institutions who have recruited more students than last year to continue to do so. That came at an overall additional cost of £1.9 million, and, based on what we're hearing from student support, we're expecting to see that requirement increase. So, it's one of the areas where we'll need to look at how we prioritise Diamond funding. And at the moment, our intention—but subject to knowing the quantum of it—is to continue to support and fund growth in part-time provision.
Hefin David AM: So, is it possible—? With the Welsh Government's policy of developing lifelong learning, is it possible that will be ever spread more thinly?
Dr David Blaney: That is the challenge, and there's a piece of work that we have in our sights to look again at part-time and what it is and what the various drivers are. There's a temptation, I think, at times, to see it solely in terms of skills for an economy, and it is important for reskilling and upskilling, but actually, it's important for other things as well. If we see higher education solely in terms of skilling an economy, we've missed an important part of the contribution that higher education makes. But part-time is really quite difficult, because there's part-time that is about upskilling, part time that's about reskilling, there's part-time for social purposes, there's employer-supported part-time, there's student—. So, there's a complexity there.
Hefin David AM: But they are more reactive to rises in fees.
Dr David Blaney: Well, there is a sense that they are more price sensitive, yes, and so the support regime that the Government is putting in place is important, and that probably has made a difference to the numbers of part-timers entering the system this last year. But I think we need to stake stock of what is important about part-time, what the market will deliver, what the market won't deliver, what we should fund and so on. And there's a complexity around all that, as I've indicated, which we need to do a bit of work on with the sector, with the student body as well, just to take some stock of this over the next year or so.
Hefin David AM: Could we end up seeing significant fee increases for part-time students?
Dr David Blaney: My sense is we won't. The Government wishes us to monitor, so we monitor, and that in itself is not straightforward, actually. But your comment about price sensitivity, I think, is really the nub of it. There's a limit to how much a fee increase would be acceptable to the part-time market. So, I think it's kind of self-regulating in that respect. I don't think we'll see massive fee increases; we might see a bit, but we won't see masses, I don't think.
Hefin David AM: Okay.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now on funding for research and innovation, and also we'd like to talk a bit about a replacement for European Union funds. Siân Gwenllian.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you very much. If I could turn specifically to research, we know, of course, that both the Diamond and Reid reviews called for QR funding to be maintained in real terms, but the allocation is exactly the same for 2019-20 as it has been for the past nine years. Have you carried out any kind of assessment of the impact of this level of research funding on universities and, indeed, on the Welsh economy?
Dr David Blaney: I'm sorry; I missed the beginning of that because I couldn't hear this headset.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân, could you repeat the question? Sorry. We had a bit of a problem with translation at the beginning.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, no problem. I was talking about the Diamond and Reid reviews at the beginning of my question and the fact that they had recommended that QR funding should be maintained in real terms. But, of course, the sum hasn't actually increased over a period of nine years.
Dr David Blaney: Okay. The reason the sum hasn't increased is because we haven't had enough money to be able to increase it and still meet the obligations we have to other bits of the HE system. We would dearly love to increase it. Both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid were very clear about the importance of being able to invest in our QR research funding, for a number of reasons. The capacity of the sector to be able to respond to funding opportunities elsewhere in the UK and across the rest of the world is itself determined by the size and the strength of the research base, which is sustained by QR funding. If they go for UK-based competitive research funding, that is typically constructed on the absolute assumption that QR will be part of that mix. So, they tend to fund to 80 per cent of the actual cost of the research, with the expectation that QR will plug the gap. And we know that, although the Welsh research base is extraordinarily productive, and really is punching above its weight in many ways—and I mentioned earlier the impact of the research base in the last research excellence framework—we know that, actually, it could do so much more, if it just had more scale. So, we fully endorse the reports from both Ian Diamond and Graeme Reid that QR is important, and it's important also to be able to allow institutions to invest in research areas that emerge over time. It's almost impossible for a body like us, far less the Government, to know where these emerging strengths are going to come from, and QR provides the flexibility for institutions, which is absolutely fundamental to keeping the research base dynamic.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Therefore, you do have concerns that this isn't increasing—you have that concern of a lack of increase in the level of investment. But has any particular assessment been made of the impact of not increasing that funding?
Dr David Blaney: So, there is—. Graeme Reid's report produced an assessment of the correlation between QR funding and capacity to generate funding from other sources, and there's a very close correlation—
Sian Gwenllian AM: Has HEFCW done any assessment to look at the effect of underfunding research, to all intents and purposes?
Dr David Blaney: Not directly. We've relied on the expert assessment of people like Graeme Reid. It's sometimes more effective to have external experts making these points than us or the sector.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Your remit requires you to encourage universities to continue to develop one particular element of research, which is educational research. How does your allocation for 2019-20 contribute to that in terms of pedagogy and educational research specifically?
Dr David Blaney: Bethan, did you want to say something on this?
Bethan Owen: I was just going to add that, when we look at the funding that comes into our sector in Wales, compared with the rest of the UK, it's easy to see from the figures that our percentage of income that comes from research is smaller than in England, so the figures show that we receive less of the money that's available, which is a factor that results from us having less QR as a percentage, so we're in a situation where we get less of that UK funding that's available as well.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, there's a knock-on to that; that's what you're trying to say. But from the point of view of my question on educational research—?
Dr David Blaney: So, we have provided funding in 2017-18 and 2018-19 to WISERD Education, which is a research collaboration between a number of the Welsh universities, specifically looking at educational issues, and we're providing additional funding to that to add value to the Welsh Government's existing evaluation of the progress of pioneer schools in developing the three-to-15 curriculum in Wales. I won't go into the full detail of it now, but it's a five-partner project feeding into this with researchers from Cardiff, Cardiff Met, Trinity Saint David, Aber, Bangor and the University of South Wales. So, it's a collaborative effort, and we have, in the past, also funded WISERD Education, so it's an important research facility and increasingly being used, I'm delighted to say, by Welsh Government in underpinning its own policy thinking.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And likewise, in 2019-20, there will be allocations specifically for this.
Dr David Blaney: It's a bit early to say yet. We haven't allocated anything specifically in the main allocations that we've put out. There might be others to come, but we're not yet in a position to say.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Well, could you provide the remit letter from—[Inaudible.]—do that? You have to do everything in the remit letters.
Dr David Blaney: We do what we can to pay due regard to the remit letters, as the wording goes. So, we have it in our sights, but we're not yet ready to make announcements.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And then turning to the impact of the loss of funds were we to leave the European Union. Of course, this is going to have a far-reaching impact on future research, and the Reid review has made recommendations to mitigate this impact. So, what assessment have you made of how allocations will be able to help universities to transition away from EU funding?
Dr David Blaney: So, again, the Reid review has done a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of an impact assessment for us. And we endorse, just as the Government has endorsed, the recommendations from Reid. The Government has committed in principle to delivering Reid. The challenge is finding the money, and we fully understand that. There has been an additional £6.6 million allocated for research very recently by the Government, which we have put out specifically in line with some of the recommendations from Reid. So, that's a start, but that's not sustainable funding, and it's not enough, really, but it is a good and welcome start. Reid was also not just talking about the money, but also talking about the way in which the Welsh research base both represents itself and also engages with UK-wide developments. And in response to that, we have recently issued our own vision for research and innovation, which was developed over a number of months, following the Reid report closely, working with stakeholders, including the Welsh Government, in order to try and set a vision for how we respond to the challenges facing research in the future, including the reduction, potentially, of access to EU funds. And a lot of that is—. These Reid recommendations all come together; they're coherent. A lot of that requires investment in the Welsh research base in order to be able to go for competitive funding at a UK level. Since it seems possible at least, and possibly even likely, that any money retrieved from not having to invest in the EU will sit in London rather than necessarily being devolved to the devolved administrations—we understand fully the Welsh Government's position on that, and we don't disagree with it. But either way, we need a research base that's able to compete, and that's why the investment recommendations of Reid are so important.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. I think Reid was saying that there may be pots of money out there that aren't being accessed at the moment by Welsh universities. Are you able to help then within that process?
Bethan Owen: One aspect that we do intend to fund—and this is from Diamond, as well as Reid—is to place funding back into the system for innovation. We're consulting currently, with the intention, if the funding is available to us, clearly, in the year 2020-21, to provide £15 million back into the sector in innovation funding. That's funding that we had to take out when the new fee system came in. That is part of promoting the innovation, and part of the research portfolio as well.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Is that part of the UKRI funding? There is some £7 billion in the hands of that organisation, as I understand it, and there may be some possibilities there too.
Bethan Owen: That £15 million will be money that comes from us, but the intention is that the money will go in in order to improve universities' ability to access that funding from UKRI. So, Innovate UK would be the part of UKRI—and that we improve our ability to get funding from outside Wales. And, then, Graeme Reid says the same thing in terms of research—that we need more funding to do the same thing there.
Dr David Blaney: And, then, there's also the recommendation from Reid that Wales needs to be better embedded in the conversations that are going on on a UK-wide basis, so the Welsh Government has established a presence in London in respect of research, and we have a colleague in HEFCW who is fractionally embedded in the United Kingdom Research and Innovation specifically to respond to that recommendation. And that is actually paying dividends; we are strengthening our relationship with the UK machinery, which is essential if we're to understand where they're heading and what their funding bids are all about, and even to be able to influence those.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, Siân?
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, as far as research is concerned, it's not all doom and gloom.
Dr David Blaney: Yes, I mean, you know, things are looking up. There is money coming in and if the Government, as it is able to, can find money and can invest in this area, then that will help.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Just a couple of questions from me, then, before you close: what is your recent work on the 'basket of goods' show regarding student accommodation costs? And have any institutions used their 2019-20 fee and access plans to make commitments to more affordable accommodation for under-represented groups?
Dr David Blaney: First of all, on the basket of goods, the work we're doing now—we're currently in train in terms of analysing the data in respect of the basket of goods, so this is slightly premature, but our early look at the data indicates that there are no increases in costs, accommodation or other, that would cause us concern. So, it doesn't look like institutions are succumbing to the temptation to up their income streams from other costs. So, that's good. In terms of the fee and access plans, the sector has committed over £28 million of investment in student support-related activities from the fee and access plans, and that includes, in many instances, bursaries that are designed to help students cope with the costs of accommodation and the cost of living more generally. The support is provided for a range of purposes, but a couple of examples, just very quickly: Trinity Saint David, since we've talked about them a lot today, they offer £1,000 bursary to care leavers, which is in addition to local authority support for care leavers. Bangor also offer targeted support for care leavers, and these are often also extended, so they apply not just in term time, but throughout the holiday time as well, because people still need to live during the holidays. So, there is investment going in from the fee plans in that support.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. And just one final question from me then, going back to Trinity Saint David: are you concerned that the governing body of Trinity Saint David has taken decisions that have led to that material uncertainty, and is that unprecedented in Wales?
Dr David Blaney: My view is that the decisions that the governing body made were, in our view, perfectly rational decisions to have made, given the information they had at the time. So, what's happened is that a number of unforeseen events have arisen, which, actually, I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to have foreseen, and it's just a combination of these that has caused the cash pressure. So, I don't see this as a governance failure, and they are engaging with those challenges.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've come to the end of our time, so can I thank you both for attending and for answering all our questions this morning? You did say that you would give the committee a note on reserves for the last four years, so we'd be grateful if we could receive that. And, as usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you, again, for your time this morning.
Dr David Blaney: Thank you.
Bethan Owen: Thank you very much.
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3, then, is papers to note. Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Deputy Minister requesting further information for our scrutiny of the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. Paper to note 2 is a letter from me to the Children's Commissioner for Wales also asking for further information to pursue our scrutiny of the Bill. And paper to note 3 is a letter to the Minister for Education asking for an update on the framework for young people educated other than at school. Are Members happy to note those? Thank you. Item 4, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to propose that we resolve to meet in private for the remainder of this meeting and for the whole meeting on 10 July. Are Members content? Thank you.
Query:
What was the solution to risk appetite?
Answer:
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Dr David Blaney believed that governing bodies were not likely to exhibit as an imprudent risk appetite since they would see the potential risks coming through in forecasts, in requests for borrowings, predominantly and many other ways. Although the government body included a slightly different perspective, divisions were not falling short. Besides, commitments from enthusiastic people and occasionally with a slightly external perspective would also be a help.
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va-sq-216_0
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
User Interface: Oops .
Project Manager: So , hello everyone . {vocalsound} We're here to have a kick-off meeting for the design of a {disfmarker} f for the beginning of new project um {vocalsound} uh remote control for the design for a new remote control {vocalsound} . I'm the Project Manager Christa Pavlov and {vocalsound} okay let's begin . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So I'm first going to do an opening then we get used to one anothers and we speak about this tool we're going to design and try to make a project plan , some discussion and then we talk of uh the next meeting . So um we want to to do a new remote control . It has to be original , trendy and user friendly .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um I think the important points we have to t talk about are uh it's functional design , it's conceptual design , and desail detailed design . {gap} and for that we're going um all to work individually and then have meeting during the whole day . Um , so {vocalsound} let's try the whiteboard {vocalsound} .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Wow . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um so any of you who want to go .
User Interface: Yeah , for favourite animals .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's gonna be not my favourite one but the one I can draw .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} And it's gonna be {disfmarker} you'll try to guess .
Marketing: Wow . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Complex .
Project Manager: Wow . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Huh ? A cat .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: No . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: No . Darn . {vocalsound} Uh .
Project Manager: A rabbit .
User Interface: Yes , that's a rabbit .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} A rabbit .
User Interface: That's my favourite one .
Marketing: A what ?
Industrial Designer: Rabbit .
Marketing: A r a rabbit , oh oh yeah , where is the carrot ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} That's it .
Marketing: Okay {vocalsound} mm-hmm .
Project Manager: You want to go ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I am not very good at uh {vocalsound} this kind of stuff .
User Interface: Hmm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: My favourite animal is {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You wa
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: A human
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Guess .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} ah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} A human , yay . It's a very complex animal {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No .
Marketing: and um {disfmarker} yeah . Characteristics of this this animal is {vocalsound} dangerous . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm I think you're supposed to , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Is the white {disfmarker} okay .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: I guess you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow . That's cobra .
Marketing: Ah , a kind of uh snake ? Cobra ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah uh not really .
Marketing: Exactly {vocalsound} . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Small cobra . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No , it just {disfmarker} small cobra , yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Is that a worm ? Or {vocalsound} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh-huh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: It's co c quite recognisable . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} What about you uh {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh yeah Christa Pavlov {vocalsound} Mm .
Marketing: Christa ? {vocalsound}
User Interface: Christa {vocalsound} Christa .
Industrial Designer: Chris . {vocalsound}
Marketing: A fish . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: Smiling fish {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Smile fish . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: A smiling fish . {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So , w whiteboard is working ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Good . {vocalsound} Next . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Next . Let's talk about money .
User Interface: Just tr try to guess who is a User Interface Designer .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , well . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} According to the drawings .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , you're {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Not me . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So .
Marketing: So . Twenty five Euro for a remote control .
Project Manager: Yeah , mm that's the price we want to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: that's the aim for the price for the remote control .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: We aim to do {vocalsound} this profit . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} On the international market .
Marketing: {vocalsound} 'tis big number .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we're to sell two million then .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Wow .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm {vocalsound} for a production cost of mm twelve fifty Euros maximum . {vocalsound} 'Kay {vocalsound} . So any of you have experience in remote controls ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah .
Marketing: Uh yes , we have plenty at home .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} In fact , my daughter likes l {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} remote controls .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm . To eat ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: To eat ? Yeah , mainly , and to break . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So that could be a great um {vocalsound} application .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Remote controls children proof . Mm mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah .
User Interface: Children proof .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Ye ye yeah .
User Interface: Hmm .
Marketing: So she likes uh buttons {vocalsound} which make click ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , pret
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so {vocalsound} it has to click .
Project Manager: So they have to be waterproof maybe ?
Marketing: It has to be uh wha {vocalsound} baby proof {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Cause they eat {disfmarker} she ate it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: yeah {vocalsound} but mainly it has to be very robust
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: because even if she's not very tall she's uh {vocalsound} high enough so that uh when she throw it away it's uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ah .
Marketing: So it has to be very robust .
User Interface: Okay , unbreakable .
Marketing: Unbreakable , yeah .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , we have some child lock or something , yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: And uh {vocalsound} it has to be nice looking ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: colourful , maybe {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Colourful , yeah mm .
User Interface: Colourful ? That's not practical .
Marketing: colourful , because uh nobody has colourful remote control
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: No , that's a good idea .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's always black or {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: , they're always black , yeah ,
Project Manager: Mm mm-mm .
User Interface: No .
Marketing: but this one could be I dunno , purple or b
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But how gonna {disfmarker} okay , just uh but it's uh monochrome it's n it's not like {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: No ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: because you think , why not .
User Interface: Otherwise you will never find it .
Marketing: One colour .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah even we can change colours , no ? Like the uh
Marketing: Oh like the phones ,
Industrial Designer: like the phones and these things we c yeah .
Marketing: yeah , it could change colours , yeah .
User Interface: Cool .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: At least for children like one colour and {gap} . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Ch
Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Good idea .
Marketing: Good .
Industrial Designer: And it should be really {gap} small and {gap} .
Project Manager: Small also ? Don't you think {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Huh not so big like {disfmarker} yeah .
Project Manager: No uh , not too much buttons or {disfmarker} mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , not too much buttons and {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Should it be , y you know these uh remote controls where um they are what they call a universal ret remote control
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: so y you can decide that now it's the remote control for the television , then it's the remote control for the the sound system , or for your refrigerator
Industrial Designer: Uh . Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} whatever {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that's {disfmarker}
Marketing: I dunno if it's {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Or if we should have a targeted re remote control .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} So colour , robustness , easy to use , size ,
Project Manager: So , I think there's {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah , size matters , yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Colour , {vocalsound} size , sh
Project Manager: So you you think it's better if small than bigger .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe at least n not bigger than this I guess . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah , but without any extremes like n not of this size , not too large . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: No , not too small , yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah , at least it should hold in your hand n properly , like {gap} .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah , like a palm sized .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Just to hold it .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: But uh what would be different from this , from the others ? I dunno if {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh maybe we can change the colours that {disfmarker} at least the frame . Mm . S so then it depends {disfmarker}
Marketing: Yeah , at least the colour would be different .
Industrial Designer: you are to {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm I mean you c you can easily remove the frame {gap} .
Marketing: I think one thing important for instance in this remote control if you remember when people use it they're {disfmarker} they never find a good button in the right place .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .
Marketing: For some reason they they they click the off button when they want to use the {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: So there's a problem in the design of that kind of remote control somehow ,
Project Manager: Mm . So , some kind of idea uh with um um {vocalsound} cellular phone with a a screen that will tell you what {disfmarker}
Marketing: I dunno {gap} .
User Interface: No ,
Project Manager: no .
User Interface: no screens , it's too complex .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound} Too expensive , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Too expensive for twelve Euro ?
User Interface: And n maybe not too expensive ,
Project Manager: And too expensive .
User Interface: well it's not my problem , but well okay .
Marketing: Ah .
User Interface: But no screens on remote controls .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm . I thought it could be only a screen {vocalsound} which would change depending on uh uh the use or even the user .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So ma I prefer to have the off button at the top right ,
Industrial Designer: Ye yeah .
Marketing: so I would have my own design of the remote control because it's in fact just a a full touch screen remote control ,
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Marketing: if you {disfmarker} if you like .
Industrial Designer: I mean it it's like
Marketing: I don't know if it makes sense , but {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} it's like two types no ? {vocalsound} people are right handed or left handed so y because I am left handed I use like this , say if you're right handed you use like this
Marketing: Yeah , for instance , mm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm mm mm .
Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker} so tha your switch on and off should be on
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: So adaptable {vocalsound} {disfmarker} yeah something {disfmarker}
User Interface: Adaptable . Alright , good ,
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} yeah .
Marketing: Maybe , if if it's possible , yeah .
Project Manager: yeah .
Industrial Designer: Mm {vocalsound}
User Interface: so how many actions do we need to implement in it ?
Industrial Designer: huh .
User Interface: On off ?
Industrial Designer: Maybe I think even we can keep two switches and then we can uh only make one working .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: We can adapt only one switch , suppose here like we can make two switches and if I'm left-hander I use this switch to follow the main operations .
User Interface: I mean if it's less than three uh then we can make it uh like a
Industrial Designer: Two .
Marketing: Three buttons you mean ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} like three mental states ,
Project Manager: Three option .
User Interface: yeah you know what I mean ,
Marketing: Ah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: we can just make it uh
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Um .
User Interface: controlled by a brain , huh ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm , yeah , sure . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Maybe if it's more , if there is a software inside
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: that ask you three {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} If it {disfmarker} if we want a r universal remote control that we sa like we say before it may may need more than three mm three button , three mm possibilities , ye yeah .
User Interface: Sh sure , sure .
Marketing: Yeah , more than three actions that you may want to do at a given time .
Industrial Designer: Mm yeah . Yeah . {vocalsound}
User Interface: But for standard actions you usually what do you do , you change channels , you adjust volume , and nothing else .
Marketing: Yeah but for instance when you change channels you can have {disfmarker} you can just go to the next one or go to channel twenty five .
Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Marketing: And that's already more complex to go to channel twenty five . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: You do this ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Uh no .
User Interface: I usually just change channels .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Because I'm only using three or four channels but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . But they keep generally their t slash slash uh this thing and then the dash dash and then you can put {disfmarker} yeah , you can only have one bit .
Project Manager: Yeah . I change channel like this , m uh I want to go to twenty five , and then to ten , uh-huh mm yeah .
Industrial Designer: Dash .
Marketing: And then back to the one I was before ,
Project Manager: Also we can be here {disfmarker}
Marketing: so there's {disfmarker} whichever it was .
User Interface: Uh-huh .
Industrial Designer: Yeah you can
Project Manager: yeah , that would be cool .
Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} yeah .
User Interface: Go back button is good .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Uh uh we had that in in other countries .
User Interface: I once had it .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah , the previous button is {gap} .
Project Manager: Mm {vocalsound} yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah e even the history so you could like uh undo {vocalsound} previous of the previous . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh , okay . {vocalsound}
User Interface: History . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Then you can watch what your {disfmarker} ah you could also record your {disfmarker} record your {vocalsound} sequence of actions ,
Industrial Designer: Uh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} that becomes more complex ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: but you could look at what uh the other people have used there or {disfmarker} {vocalsound} remote controls .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah , what the {disfmarker} which channels the viewer {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-mm .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Marketing: maybe it's a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So I think we have full of idea .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: Um we're going to meet again in thirty minutes and uh I want you to mm {vocalsound} work on these ideas and try to make a uh {vocalsound} the ones , {vocalsound} make um {disfmarker} to decide what what are the ones important and what are the one that we don't want . {vocalsound} And um m maybe more in the technical parts what uh do we want to do . Um . {vocalsound} So um your personal coach will send you some instruction for for this thirty minutes .
Marketing: So what does M_E_ means ? M_E_ the user requirements ? Or that's uh that's for us ?
User Interface: Market Expert .
Project Manager: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Marketing {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound} {gap} .
Marketing: Uh that's me .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh , of course {vocalsound} yeah , the user requirement specifications , uh-huh , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} I'll think of that .
Project Manager: Mm okay . So .
Marketing: So ?
Project Manager: I think that's all .
Marketing: Meeting's over ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Great .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Marketing: Thank you .
Project Manager: See you in thirty minutes .
User Interface: Thank you everybody .
Query:
What did the Industrial Designer think of appearance design when discussing the design of remote control for children?
Answer:
|
He suggested that the remote control must look good and be brightly coloured. Although not colourful, they could choose a variety of monochrome to meet the aesthetic needs of children, thus improving the suitability of the remote control for children.
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... [The rest of the transcript is omitted]
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va-sq-219_0
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
User Interface: .. .
Project Manager: Okay . So , this is uh first meeting of this design project . Um and I um like to show you the agenda for the meeting , I don't know if it was sent round to all of you .
User Interface: Mm , yeah .
Project Manager: Maybe not . Anyway ,
User Interface: I didn't receive it yet {vocalsound} .
Project Manager: this is the the plan for today's meeting is um firstly just to introduce the project briefly , um although I'm sure you've actually got some of the information already . Then the main purpose is to {disfmarker} so that we get to know each other a little bit more .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um then we want to practice using some of the tools that we'll be using during the the course of the design project and the meetings , um specifically the whiteboard over there . Um then we need to go through the specifics of our project plan um and discuss {disfmarker} come up with some preliminary ideas about it . And then that's it . So we've got twenty five minutes to do that , that's until eleven twenty five .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} so sh
Project Manager: S so any any questions ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} {vocalsound} {gap} .
Project Manager: Is i {gap} not at this point .
User Interface: Not at this point .
Project Manager: So this is our project . What we're aiming to do is to create a new remote control for a television . Um we want it to be something original , something trendy and also something user friendly , so it has to be quite intuitive that people are able to use this product . The method that we're going to use to complete the project , that has three components as such . There's the functional design of the the remote control . We're going {disfmarker} the way we'll do that I think is to to work individually initially and then come together for meetings to to work on that . Um similarly with the conceptual design , we'll start off by working individually with our own expertise on our own laptops and then we'll bring what we've done together . Um and then the detailed design will come after that . We'll pull it all together .
Industrial Designer: I'm a bit confused about uh what's the difference between the functional design and conceptual design ? Uh i is it just uh more detail , uh as I understand it ?
Project Manager: I think it {disfmarker} th w we're talking the the functional design is more your um area of things where you'll be {disfmarker} we want to look at what functions we need in the remote control
Industrial Designer: Right .
Project Manager: and what what specific things it it has to do
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: but the conceptual design is um perhaps bigger than that and includes the {disfmarker} how people are going to use it and and that kind of thing .
Industrial Designer: How how it will be done . So whe where do we identify the components of our uh product ? Uh I think it's it's in the conceptual design phase that we identify the {disfmarker} it's in the conceptual design phase that we identify the components of our product ?
Project Manager: Um I think we'll we'll start that initially with the functional design already but then
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: {disfmarker} yeah . Okay , so that's just a brief overview of the p the the project itself . Um what I'd like us to do now is simultaneously introduce ourselves and start using some of the tools that we're using for {vocalsound} for the project , specifically the whiteboard .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: So each person in turn , I'd like us to go up to the whiteboard , the pen's just underneath it there and draw your favourite animal and then tell everyone what the f your favourite characteristics of that animal are and while you're doing that tell us your name , what your role is and perhaps how your animal relates to the role that you're taking in this project . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Why are you looking at me ?
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Would you like to go first ? {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Do I have a choice ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay . Ooh ooh , things falling everywhere .
Project Manager: Oh , yeah ,
Marketing: Right , okay .
Project Manager: p put them in pockets .
Marketing: Cool . Okay .
Project Manager: You don't have to hurry , we've got plenty of time .
Marketing: So , my name's Cat and I'm really not very good at this whole drawing malarkey
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: so um {disfmarker}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It's got no eyes .
Marketing: Oh , good point . Ah , the eyes always ruin it . Right . Okay , what do {gap} it's eyes like ? Okay , cool . Um this is a rabbit . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I thought it might be a cat . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah well origi uh at first I thought it was going to be cat . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah , I don't think it's furry enough , so we'll make it a fluffy rabbit .
User Interface: Yeah now I now I understand now , yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah I can see by the ears .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Okay , right , it's a fluffy rabbit , blue .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Rabbits don't come in blue but you know .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Um okay and I like it because it's small {vocalsound} and it's fluffy .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: And one day you'll be able to getical genetically modify them and they will come in pink .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Ah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay ?
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: Excellent , and what's your what's your role within the team ?
Marketing: I am the um {disfmarker} I need my notebook , mm ooh {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: top banana . Thank you . Okay , cool , I am the Marketing Expert {vocalsound} um so like I'm gonna be doing the {disfmarker} apparently according to the little guy in the computer that knows everything {disfmarker} the user g requirements specification of the functional design , um trend watching in the conceptual design and product evad-valuation in the detailed design {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Okay .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: um so yeah .
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Project Manager: And more about yourself , you're from ?
Marketing: Um I'm from Leicester ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: um second year . Um what else do you want to know ?
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: I like sports {vocalsound} um yeah , aerobics , kickboxing , spinning
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: um {vocalsound} and uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: But not with rabbits . {vocalsound}
Marketing: not with rabbits , no no .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: And vets , I like vets as well .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} And yeah um and I like cocktails , especially pink ones .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool .
Marketing: Okay ? Cool . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Excellent , to match the rabbit . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Okay . Um so my name is Maarika . Where's the pen ? Okay .
Project Manager: There's a {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} if you have not enough room there's an eraser there and you can rub it off .
User Interface: Yeah , well , or I can make it smaller . {vocalsound} Uh so um um I'm the Interface Designer in this project and my favourite animal , I m I mean I'm not so sure because I'm not so so very um {vocalsound} familiar with all kinds of animals , but I do like dogs .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Oh , sorry , maybe I should have {disfmarker} shouldn't have said it beforehand but
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: mm {vocalsound} hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um well , there are different kinds of dogs , but okay um .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's not bad at all .
Project Manager: Ah it looks like a dog .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep .
Marketing: Is a bit more impressive than my rabbit .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: I think it needs four legs if it's gonna walk though .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Yeah , maybe it has some colourful patches , yeah .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} the other legs are on the other side .
User Interface: Um yeah and I do like dogs because they are good friends to people and they are loyal . Mm , well that's compared to some other animals like cats . Um they're really much more fun because they are not so independent .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Um yeah maybe maybe the fact that they protect their home as well , yeah . Um what it has to do with with my role in the project is hard to say .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh I hope to be loyal to the project
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: and not to n not to um let people doing similar projects know the details of our project or something , {vocalsound} yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: And where where are you from ?
User Interface: I'm from Estonia
Project Manager: Estonia .
User Interface: uh , yep . Um so is there anything else you'd like to know ? Oh , right , my roles ,
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: um so um in the different um {vocalsound} stages of the design , so at first I will be responsible for um for {vocalsound} yeah , designing the technical functions of the um {vocalsound} um of the remote control uh then in the in the conceptual design stage I need to um come up with uh interface concept and then in the last um stage I will be responsible for the int infa for the user interface design .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay , that's it . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Thank you . Okay {vocalsound} um {vocalsound} I'll do some {disfmarker} I'll rub the features
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and let the drawing stay . {vocalsound} 'Kay um my name is Gaurav . Um {vocalsound} my favourite animal {disfmarker} one of my favourite animals is a cow . I've got no idea how to draw a cow .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good luck .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh this is going to be {disfmarker}
Marketing: They're not just like a big round body and then some really skinny legs
Industrial Designer: Yeah , that'll do .
Marketing: and then just some horns .
Industrial Designer: Okay , so let let me draw the body first .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Big , round body , really skinny legs {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and they've got a long tail
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: and a long face . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's eating .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: It looks like Eeyore . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: And there is some grass there .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So this is what I like about {vocalsound} cows {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} Horns ,
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: that they just keeps sitting there eating grass ,
Marketing: draw some horns . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: they do not disturb anybody um
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: they're kind of Buddhist in a way . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: So yeah , I like cows . {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} my my role in the project is um uh the industrial designer , so I'm supposed to design all the details of of the product um ho how it works and whatever it'll mm take during the functional role , what are the various functions that have to be performed by it uh during the um conceptual design , what are the various components of it and um finally , I'm not too sure what was the last part . Um the detailed design , I I guess it will again be the identification of the components and how they integrate with each other . Um I'm from India . Uh I'm doing my P_H_D_ in Psycholinguistics , I sit at the Department of Psychology . {vocalsound} Yeah . Thank you .
Project Manager: Excellent .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Thanks .
Project Manager: Right , now now it's my turn obviously . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: That doesn't look like a cow , does it ? {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay , here's a space .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} It looks very very cute .
Project Manager: Yeah , I like the cow .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: I'm Jen .
User Interface: Yeah . Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um I like dogs too , but I can't do that already because I can't draw a dog as well as you can .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: I like {disfmarker} Mm .
Marketing: Is that a lizard ?
Industrial Designer: No way . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: Wow .
Project Manager: It's a gecko .
Industrial Designer: Ah okay .
User Interface: Ah , a gecko , okay .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: Is there a difference ?
User Interface: Is {disfmarker} a ar are they also like lizards or are they {disfmarker}
Project Manager: They're {disfmarker} Yeah , they're l it's a kind of lizard .
User Interface: yeah , they are
Project Manager: And I I like geckos
User Interface: {disfmarker} mm-hmm .
Project Manager: because they remind me of warm places {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .
Project Manager: and , and where I was living in Cambodia they used to live in my house
User Interface: Ah . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and they were on the ceiling and they would make little gecko noises in the evening .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: I hope you don't like snakes , do you ?
Project Manager: I don't like snakes . I come from Australia
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: and we have nasty snakes . That's where I'm from , Australia .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: I'm from Melbourne and I'm your Project Manager for today
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Project Manager: and my role is basically to keep things going and make sure that you all work together in a productive way , so that by the end of the day we come up with a great product .
User Interface: Wonderful .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So , let's see what's next in the PowerPoint presentation . So , I've just thought {disfmarker}
Marketing: If you right click on it you can {disfmarker}
Project Manager: yeah I've just thought about this that we could even put it much more professionally {vocalsound} as {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: there we go . Okay , so this is the um overall budget for our project . We've got {disfmarker} um we're planning to sell these remote controls for {disfmarker} let's make that go away , that means we've got five minutes . Um we're planning to sell the remote controls for twenty five Euros each . Um and with that we're aiming for a profit of fifty million Euros . And that's selling them on the international market , not just in the U_K_ . Um so to do that our finance people estimate that we need production costs of maximum twelve and a half Euro so that we can reach that profit target . So that's something to keep in mind while you're designing . Okay . Hmm . This is {disfmarker} let me just skip ahead to see {disfmarker} that's the last thing , okay . We've only got a couple of minutes . Does anyone have any first ideas to bounce around about um what we're thinking of this remote control ?
User Interface: Yep . I'm just wondering whether whether there is like any special feature that we want to have {disfmarker} w want this remote control have as opposed to the already existing ones .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm . I think that's probably something that w it's best if we take away with us ,
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: but if we all have a think , when we go away from the meeting , what specific things could be um included in this remote control that that {vocalsound} are out of the ordinary .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think uh i in the beginning uh one thing was {disfmarker} that was mentioned was that it should be mm trendy , user friendly and original so um I think your point is relevant as far as the originality is concerned , that we should provide some features that are quite unique to this .
Project Manager: Something something new .
Marketing: Yeah , I was looking at the website ,
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: and the other things that they've made and I like put down some like inspirational words like that I got from looking at the pictures . So the motto is um we put the fashion in electronics
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: and um so it's something that is sleek and stylish but it's still functional , you know ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So I'm kind of thinking , you know like those phones that they have , the new generation ones , where they don't actually have any buttons on them and stuff like that .
Industrial Designer: Alright .
Project Manager: Uh-huh .
Marketing: You know , so something heading towards that , so it's not overly {disfmarker} I mean I don't know what h most of the buttons do on my remote controls , so I figure how many do you need , you know ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: So perhaps some sort of menu-based thing , or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Something that's a little less crowded than this , like I mean you know , theoretically you can do all kinds of things with your T_V_ , right ?
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: But what do most people do ?
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: They turn it on , they watch certain specified channels , you know , and then they turn it off again .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} There is a lot of functionality in there that is not used ninety percent of the time ,
Marketing: Sometimes they play a movie .
Industrial Designer: but will be used ten percent of the time , yeah .
Marketing: Yeah , so
Project Manager: Yeah .
Marketing: there's no need to have buttons on it to do that ,
Project Manager: So , no .
Marketing: maybe to do {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: It could be one button for a menu or something , if you really need to go and do that .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: And then use the {disfmarker}
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So , if you're the kind of sad case that knows how your remote control works , then you know that's fine
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: and you can do it on the screen rather than everybody else having to have those buttons , which just confuse them . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Excellent .
Marketing: 'Cause like if you look at the train , it's just very like , there's no extra bits on it , the train on the website and I dunno if you can put it up on the thing
Project Manager: Oh I haven't had a look yet , yep .
Marketing: um but it is just like a long like thing used for mu moving people , but it looks really pretty too .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: {gap}
Project Manager: Great . Any other immediate thoughts before we move along ?
Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound} Uh we can aim for {disfmarker} I mean we can think about all these little things , but we can aim for something wi that gives a high battery life , although I don't think that um it's a huge problem for remote controls anyway , battery life ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: uh every now and then you need to replace the batteries . Um {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah but uh I mean e even though it has to be re original we shouldn't uh go like too far away from from the usual ones , because otherwise the new users will just have a lot of problems
Industrial Designer: Yeah . A big learning curve , yeah .
User Interface: with l {vocalsound} learning , yeah , yeah .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah . So , i it should kind of fit in as well , and the stereotype of a {disfmarker}
Project Manager: It's like those fancy websites that you can't access
Industrial Designer: yeah .
User Interface: Hm-hmm .
Project Manager: because you have no idea how to get in , but the designers thought they were great . Okay , so we need to wrap it up now , so that we can go away and get on with some of this . Um {vocalsound} we've got another meeting in thirty minutes , so you're {disfmarker} you'll be getting specific instructions once you go back to your workspace , but im basically you're looking at the working design ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Alright .
Project Manager: you're looking at the technical functions design , and for you it's the user requirements specification ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: like you said at the start . Okay ? Thanks for that .
User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} Thank you .
Project Manager: Uh I'll see you in half an hour .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} .
User Interface: {vocalsound} See you .
Project Manager: Carry the laptops back again .
Industrial Designer: Hmm .
Project Manager: Do we need to unplug things ? Probably .
Query:
What are the target price, target cost and target profit of remote control when discussing the design of the remote control?
Answer:
|
Project Manager wanted to make a profit of 50 million euros for a cost of 12.50 euros for 25 euros worldwide.
| 141
| 22,770
| 22,772
| 22,903
|
... [The rest of the transcript is omitted]
|
va-sq-225
|
va-sq-225_0
|
You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Grad F: Test .
Postdoc G: OK .
Professor B: Let 's see , I should be Two .
PhD D: Up high {disfmarker}
Grad E: As close to your mouth as you can get it .
Professor B: La
PhD D: high as you can get .
Professor B: Is this channel one ?
Postdoc G: Yeah , on your upper lip .
PhD H: Channel one one one .
Professor B: Gee , OK . Yes . OK .
Grad E: OK , so for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} For people wearing the wireless mikes , like {disfmarker} like this one , I find the easiest way to wear it is sorta this {disfmarker} this sorta like that .
PhD H: This is {disfmarker} chan channel channel one one two three
Grad F: Channel five , channel five .
Professor B: Yeah . Mm - hmm . What do you do ,
Grad E: It 's actually a lot more comfortable then if you try to put it over your temples ,
Grad F: Test , test test .
Professor B: you do it higher ?
Grad E: so {disfmarker}
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD D: Adam 's just trying to generate good uh data for the recognizer there .
Postdoc G: Yeah , I think we 're supposed to {disfmarker} that 's right .
Grad E: And then also , for {disfmarker} for all of them , if your boom is adjustable , the boom should be towards the corner of your mouth ,
Grad F: Test test .
PhD A: By the way , there was a bug . Yeah , i it wasn't using the proper
PhD D: Oh it was .
Grad E: and about a uh a thumb to a thumb and a half distance away from your mouth ,
PhD A: basically it wasn't adapting anything .
PhD D: Oh .
Grad E: so about like I 'm wearing it now .
PhD D: Oh that 's interesting . So why didn't you get the same results and the unadapted ?
Grad E: so so Jane , you could actually do even a little closer to your mouth ,
PhD H: It 's not always possible .
PhD A: Hmm ?
PhD D: Why didn't you get the same results and the unadapted ?
Postdoc G: I could {disfmarker} can this be adjuste like this ?
Grad E: but {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh , because when it estimates the transformer pro produces like a single matrix or something .
Grad E: Yep .
Postdoc G: Is that @ @ ? OK , thank you .
Grad F: Adam , I 'm not {disfmarker}
PhD D: O Oh oh I see .
Grad F: uh , looks kinda low on channel five {disfmarker}
PhD D: I see , I see .
Professor B: OK .
Grad F: no ?
Grad E: Channel five , s speak again .
Grad F: Maybe not .
Postdoc G: Hello .
PhD A: Basically there were no counts
Grad E: Yeah , that 's alright .
Grad F: Hello ?
Grad E: I mean , we could {disfmarker} we could up the gain slightly if you wanted to .
Grad F: It 's OK ?
PhD H: Yeah .
Grad F: Is this OK ?
PhD H: OK .
PhD D: I see what you mean .
PhD C: Who 's channel B ?
Grad E: but {disfmarker} Uh , channel B is probably Liz .
PhD C: Uh oh .
PhD H: Uh channel B {disfmarker} I am channel B .
Professor B: You wanna close this ,
Postdoc G: Channel eight , eight .
Professor B: or
PhD C: No I
Grad E: Thank you .
PhD H: No , channel B .
PhD A: Hello , hello .
PhD C: yeah , yeah , you 're channel B .
PhD H: Yeah , yeah .
PhD C: So can you talk a bit ? I thought it might be too
PhD H: OK , yeah , channel B , one two three four five .
PhD C: OK .
Grad E: Yeah , it 's alright . So , the gain isn't real good .
Professor B: We 're recording ,
PhD C: OK .
Professor B: right ?
Grad E: OK , so we are recording .
PhD H: Ah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD A: OK .
Grad E: Um everyone should have at least two forms possibly three in front of you depending on who you are .
Grad F: Oh .
Grad E: Um we {disfmarker} we 're doing a new speaker form and you only have to spea fill out the speaker form once but everyone does need to do it . And so that 's the name , sex , email , et cetera .
PhD H: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: We {disfmarker} we had a lot of discussion about the variety of English and so on so if you don't know what to put just leave it blank . Um I {disfmarker} I designed the form and I don't know what to put for my own region ,
PhD A: Mmm .
Grad E: so
PhD D: California .
PhD A: I think {disfmarker}
Grad E: California .
PhD H: California .
PhD A: Um may I make one suggestion ? Instead of age put date of {disfmarker} uh year of birth
Grad E: Sure .
PhD A: because age will change , but The year of birth changes , you know , stays the same , usually .
Grad E: Oh .
PhD C: A actually , wait a minute ,
Grad E: Birth year ?
Postdoc G: Although on {disfmarker}
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: shouldn't it be the other way around ?
PhD D: Not for me .
Postdoc G: course on the other {disfmarker} on the other hand you could {disfmarker} you view it as the age at the time of the {disfmarker}
PhD C: On the other side ,
PhD A: Well the thing is , if ten years from now you look at this form knowing that {disfmarker}
PhD C: yeah .
Postdoc G: Yes , but what we care about is the age at {disfmarker} at the recording date rather than the {disfmarker}
PhD C: O yeah .
PhD D: But there 's no other date on the form .
PhD C: W we don't care how they {disfmarker} old they really are .
PhD A: Well {disfmarker} well I don't know .
Postdoc G: Yes . {vocalsound} Unless we wanna send them a card .
Grad E: Well I guess it depends on how long the corpus is gonna be collected for .
PhD A: Anyway .
Postdoc G: Yeah , that 's true .
PhD C: I still don't see the problem .
Grad E: Either way yeah I think {disfmarker} I think age is alright
PhD A: OK .
Grad E: and then um there will be attached to this a point or two these forms uh so that you 'll be able to extract the date off that
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Grad E: so , anyway . And so then you also have a digits form which needs to be filled out every time , the speaker form only once , the digit form every time even if you don't read the digits you have to fill out the digits form so that we know that you were at the meeting . OK ? And then also if you haven't filled one out already you do have to fill out a consent form . And that should just be one person whose name I don't know . OK ?
Grad F: Do you want this {pause} Adam ?
Grad E: Uh sure . Thank you .
Professor B: So uh
Grad E: OK so should we do agenda items ?
Professor B: Uh oh that 's a good idea . I shouldn't run the meeting .
Grad E: Uh well I have {disfmarker} I wanna talk about new microphones and wireless stuff .
Postdoc G: Mmm .
Grad E: And I 'm sure Liz and Andreas wanna talk about recognition results . Anything else ?
PhD C: I guess {disfmarker} what time do we have to leave ? Three thirty ?
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah ,
Grad E: Why don't you go first then .
PhD C: so .
Professor B: Yeah , good idea .
PhD A: OK .
PhD C: Um Well , I {disfmarker} I sent out an email s couple hours ago so um with Andreas ' help um Andreas put together a sort of no frills recognizer which is uh gender - dependent but like no adaptation , no cross - word models , no trigrams {disfmarker} a bigram recognizer and that 's trained on Switchboard which is telephone conversations . Um and thanks to Don 's help wh who {disfmarker} Don took the first meeting that Jane had transcribed and um {vocalsound} you know separated {disfmarker} used the individual channels we segmented it in into the segments that Jane had used and uh Don sampled that so {disfmarker} so eight K um and then we ran up to I guess the first twenty minutes , up to synch time of one two zero zero so is that {disfmarker} that 's twenty minutes or so ? Um yeah because I guess there 's some ,
Grad E: Or so .
PhD C: and Don can talk to Jane about this , there 's some bug in the actual synch time file that ah uh I 'm {disfmarker} we 're not sure where it came from but stuff after that was a little messier . Anyway so it 's twenty minutes and I actually
Grad E: Hmm .
PhD C: um
Grad E: I {disfmarker} was that {disfmarker} did that {disfmarker} did that recording have the glitch in the middle ?
Postdoc G: I 'm puzzled by that . I {disfmarker} oh {disfmarker} oh , I see .
PhD C: There 's {disfmarker} there 's a {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Oh there was a glitch somewhere .
PhD C: yeah , so that actually um
Grad F: Was it twenty minutes in ,
PhD C: if it was twenty minutes in then I don't know
Postdoc G: I forgot about that .
Grad F: I thought {disfmarker}
PhD A: Well it was interesting ,
Postdoc G: Well , I mean , they {disfmarker}
PhD A: suddenly {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the overall error rate when we first ran it was like eighty percent
Grad E: I don't remember when it is .
Postdoc G: but I was able to can transcribe
PhD A: but i looking at {disfmarker} the first sentences looked much better than that and then suddenly it turned very bad and then we noticed that the reference was always one off with the {disfmarker} it was actually recognized
PhD C: Wel
Grad E: Oh no .
Grad F: Yeah , that might be {disfmarker} that might be {disfmarker} that might be my fault .
Postdoc G: Wow .
PhD A: so
Grad E: Oh so that was just a parsing mismatch .
Grad F: I 'm not {disfmarker}
PhD A: OK .
PhD C: No actually it was {disfmarker} yeah i it was a complicated bug because they were sometimes one off and then sometimes totally random so um
Grad F: yeah , I was pretty certain that it worked up until that time ,
Postdoc G: Oh . That 's not good .
PhD C: Yeah
PhD A: OK .
PhD C: so that 's what we have
Grad E: Alright .
Grad F: so
PhD C: but that {disfmarker} that will be completely gone if this synch time problem
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad E: The {disfmarker} the glitch
PhD A: So {disfmarker} so we have everything recognized but we scored only the first uh whatever , up to that time to
Postdoc G: And the only glitch {disfmarker}
Grad E: yeah .
Postdoc G: yeah .
PhD C: So you guys know .
Professor B: S sorry I haven't seen the email ,
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad E: Th - the
Postdoc G: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} wait
Professor B: what was the score ?
PhD C: So here 's the actual copy of the email
Postdoc G: we should say something about the glitch . He {disfmarker} he can say something about the glitch .
PhD C: um oh OK
Grad E: yeah .
Postdoc G: Cuz it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} h it 's {disfmarker} it 's very small {disfmarker}
PhD C: so does this glitch occur at other {disfmarker}
Grad E: There {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there 's an acoustic glitch that occurs where um the channels get slightly asynchronized
Postdoc G: very small . Yep .
PhD C: Oh .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: Right .
Grad E: so the {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that problem has gone away in the original driver believe it or not when the SSH key gen ran the driver paused for a fraction of a second
Professor B: Hmm .
Grad F: Hmm .
Grad E: and so the channels get a little asynchronous and so if you listen to it in the middle there 's a little part where it starts doing {disfmarker} doing click sounds .
Professor B: So {disfmarker}
PhD C: And is it only once that that happens ?
Grad E: But yeah
PhD C: OK .
Grad E: it {disfmarker} right once in the middle .
PhD C: There 's {disfmarker} the previous page has some more information about sort of what was wrong
Professor B: so {disfmarker} so un unsurprisingly Adam is the golden voice ,
PhD C: but
Grad E: Um But that shouldn't affect anything
PhD C: OK so that 's actually
Postdoc G: S and it {disfmarker}
Professor B: you see this here ?
PhD C: It {disfmarker} y it 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: yeah yeah " bah "
PhD C: OK no {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh , and {disfmarker}
PhD C: What happens is it actually affects the script that Don {disfmarker}
PhD D: Huh .
PhD C: I mean if we know about it then I guess it could always be checked for it
Grad E: Well the acoustic one shouldn't do anything .
PhD C: but they
Grad F: Yeah , I don't know exactly what affected it
Postdoc G: I agree . I agree .
PhD A: I {disfmarker} I have {disfmarker}
Grad F: but I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll talk to you about it ,
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad E: But I {disfmarker} I do remember {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad F: I 'll show you the point .
Postdoc G: Yeah . It {disfmarker} it had no effect on my transcription ,
PhD A: Mmm .
Postdoc G: you know , I mean I {disfmarker} I had no trouble hearing it and {disfmarker} and having time bins
Grad E: I do remember seeing once the transcriber produce an incorrect XML file where one of the synch numbers was incorrect .
Postdoc G: but there was a {disfmarker} Oh .
PhD C: Well , the {disfmarker} the synch time {disfmarker} the synch numbers have more significant digits than they should ,
Grad F: That 's what happened .
Postdoc G: Oh .
PhD H: Yeah .
Grad E: Where {disfmarker} where they weren't monotonic .
Grad F: There was {disfmarker} yeah , I mean {disfmarker}
PhD C: right ? There 's things that are l in smaller increments than a frame .
PhD H: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Oh , interesting .
PhD C: And so then , I mean you look at that and it 's got you know more than three significant digits in a synch time then that can't be right
Grad E: Oh OK so that 's
Grad F: Hmm .
Postdoc G: Oh .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: so anyway it 's {disfmarker} it 's just {disfmarker}
Grad E: yeah sounds like a bug .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
PhD C: that 's why we only have twenty minutes but there 's a significant amount of {disfmarker}
Grad F: Non - zero ? Um there are like more {disfmarker} cuz there 's a lot of zeros I tacked on just because of the way the script ran ,
Grad E: The other one I saw was that it yeah .
Grad F: I mean but there were there was a point .
PhD C: Yeah that was fine . That {disfmarker} that was OK .
Grad E: The other one I saw was non non - monotonic synch times
Grad F: OK .
Grad E: and that definitely indicra indicates a bug .
Grad F: Uh .
PhD C: Well that would really be a problem , yeah . So anyway these are just the ones that are the prebug for one meeting .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD C: um and what 's {disfmarker} which {disfmarker}
Grad E: So that 's very encouraging .
PhD C: this is really encouraging cuz this is free recognition ,
Professor B: Hmm .
PhD H: Yeah .
Professor B: Cool .
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: there 's no I mean the language model for Switchboard is totally different so you can see some like this Trent Lott which
PhD D: Trent Lott .
PhD C: um I mean these are sort of funny ones ,
PhD D: It 'll get those though .
PhD C: there 's a lot of perfect ones and good ones and all the references , I mean you can read them and when we get more results you can look through and see
Grad E: I and as I said I would like to look at the lattices
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: but um it 's pretty good .
Grad E: because it sounded like even the ones it got wrong it sort of got it right ?
PhD C: Well so I guess we can generate
Grad E: Sounds likes ?
PhD A: There are a fair number of errors that are , you know where {disfmarker} got the plural S wrong or the inflection on the verb wrong .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: um
Grad E: Yeah , and who cares ? And {disfmarker} and there were lots of {disfmarker} of course the " uh uh " - s , " in on " - s " of uh " - s .
PhD A: Mmm , so if {disfmarker}
PhD C: there 's {disfmarker} No those are actually
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: a lot of the errors I think are out of vocabulary ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: so is it like PZM is three words , it 's PZM ,
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: I mean there 's nothing There 's no language model for PZM or
Grad E: Right . Ri - ri right .
PhD C: um
Grad E: Did you say there 's no language for PZM ?
PhD C: No language model , I mean those {disfmarker}
Grad E: Do you mean {disfmarker} so every time someone says PZM it 's an error ? Maybe we shouldn't say PZM in these meetings .
PhD C: Well {disfmarker} well there 's all kinds of other stuff like Jimlet and I mean um anyway there {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah , that 's right , Jimlet .
Professor B: Well , we don't even know what that means ,
PhD C: so {vocalsound} but this is really encouraging because
Professor B: so I
Grad E: Yeah , that 's right .
PhD C: so , I mean the bottom line is even though it 's not a huge amount of data um it should be uh reasonable to actually run recognition and be like within the scope of {disfmarker} of r reasonable s you know Switchboard this is like h about how well we do on Switchboard - two data with the Switchboard - one trained {disfmarker} mostly trained recognizer
Grad E: Right .
PhD C: and Switchboard - two is {disfmarker} got sort of a different population of speakers and a different topic
Grad E: Excellent .
PhD C: and they 're talking about things in the news that happened after Switchboard - one so there was @ @ so that 's great .
Professor B: Yeah . Yeah so we 're in better shape than we were say when we did {disfmarker} had the ninety - three workshop
PhD C: Um
Professor B: and we were all getting like seventy percent error on Switchboard .
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Oh yeah
Professor B: you know
PhD C: I mean this is really ,
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: and thanks to Andreas who , I mean this is a
PhD A: Mmm .
Grad E: Well especially for the very first run , I mean you {disfmarker}
PhD A: Oh it 's the {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: eh um
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: yeah
Grad E: the first run I ran of Switchboard I got a hundred twenty percent word error but
PhD C: So and what al also this means is that
Postdoc G: Right .
PhD C: um
Grad E: Not Switchboard ,
PhD A: Well it 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: I mean there 's a bunch of things in this note to various people
Grad E: uh Broadcast News .
PhD C: especially I guess um with Jane that {disfmarker} that would help for {disfmarker} since we have this new data now uh in order to go from the transcripts more easily to um just the words that the recognizer would use for scoring . I had to deal with some of it by hand but I think a lot of it can be automated s by {disfmarker}
Professor B: Oh one thing I guess I didn't get so you know the language model was straight from {disfmarker} from bigram from Switchboard the acoustic models were also from Switchboard or {disfmarker} or
PhD A: Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: So they didn't have anything from this acoustic data in yet ?
Postdoc G: That 's amazing .
Grad E: Yeah , so that 's great .
PhD C: No .
Professor B: OK .
PhD C: And actually {disfmarker} we actually um used Switchboard telephone bandwidth models
Postdoc G: That 's amazing .
PhD A: Well that 's {disfmarker} those are the only we ones there are ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: which I guess
PhD D: I was just gonna say ,
PhD C: so that 's the on that 's the only acoustic training data that we have a lot of
PhD D: yeah .
PhD A: I mean
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD A: Right .
PhD C: and I guess Ramana , so a guy at SRI said that um there 's not a huge amount of difference going from {disfmarker}
Professor B: Right .
PhD C: it 's {disfmarker} it 's not like we probably lose a huge amount but we won't know because we don't have any full band models for s conversational speech .
PhD D: It 's probably not as bad as going f using full band models on telephone band speech
PhD C: So .
PhD A: Oh yeah .
PhD C: Right .
PhD D: right ?
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah ,
PhD C: Right , so it 's {disfmarker} so
Professor B: but for Broadcast News when we {disfmarker} we played around between the two there wasn't a huge loss .
Grad E: Right , it was not a big deal .
PhD C: Yeah
PhD A: I should {disfmarker} I should say that {disfmarker} the language model is not just Switchboard
PhD C: so I wou so that 's good .
Grad E: Although combining em worked well .
PhD A: it 's also {disfmarker} I mean there 's uh actually more data is from Broadcast News but with a little less weight
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD A: uh because
Professor B: Uh - huh .
PhD C: Like Trent Lott must have been from
PhD A: mm - hmm , right .
PhD C: I guess {vocalsound} Switchboard was before
PhD A: Um By the way just {disfmarker} for fun we also ran ,
PhD C: uh .
Professor B: Good point .
PhD A: I mean our complete system starts by doing ge a gender detection
Professor B: Mm - hmm .
PhD A: so just for the heck of it I ran that
Grad E: And it said a hundred percent male ?
PhD A: um and it might be reassuring for everybody to know that it got all the genders right .
PhD C: The j
PhD A: Yeah so
Grad E: Oh it did ?
Postdoc G: Oh that 's {disfmarker} I 'm glad .
Grad E: It got all two genders ?
PhD C: Yeah but you know Jane and Adam have you kn about equal performance
PhD A: Yeah . Yes .
PhD C: and uh and that 's interesting cuz I think the {disfmarker} their language models are quite different so and I {disfmarker} I 'm pretty sure from listening to Eric that , you know given the words he was saying and given his pronunciation that the reason that he 's so much worse is the lapel .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Right .
Postdoc G: That makes a lot of sense ,
PhD C: So it 's nice now if we can just sort of eliminate the lapel one when {disfmarker} when we get new microphones
Postdoc G: yeah . Very possible .
Professor B: Yeah I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I would bet on that too
PhD C: that would be worth it
Professor B: cuz he certainly in that {disfmarker} when as a {disfmarker} as a burp user he was {disfmarker} he was a pretty uh strong one .
PhD C: um Yeah
Grad E: Sheep .
PhD C: he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he sounded to me just from {disfmarker} he sounded like a ,
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: what 's it a sheep or a goat ?
Professor B: Sheep .
Grad E: A sheep .
PhD C: Sheep ,
Grad E: Baah .
Professor B: Yeah . Sheep is good .
PhD C: right . Sounded good .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Right so um so I guess the good news is that
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: and {disfmarker} and again this is without a lot of the sort of bells and whistles that we c can do with the SRI system and we 'll have more data and we can also start to maybe adapt the language models once we have enough meetings . So this is only twenty minutes of one meeting with no {disfmarker} no tailoring at all .
PhD A: I mean clearly there are um with just a small amount of uh actual meeting transcriptions uh thrown into the language model you can probably do quite a bit better because the {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah . The voca the vocabulary especially
Grad E: Or just dictionary .
PhD C: yeah .
PhD A: Not that much the vocabulary actually
PhD C: Yeah , so .
PhD A: I think {disfmarker} um well we have to see but {disfmarker} it 's uh {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah . It 's pretty good um so then
Professor B: Have to add PZM and so on
Grad E: And I have to try it on the far field mike
Professor B: but
PhD C: PZM
Grad E: yeah .
PhD C: and then there 's things like for the transcription I got when someone has a digit in the transcript I don't know if they said , you know one one or eleven and I don't know if they said Tcl or TCL . there 's things like that where , you know the um we 'll probably have to ask the transcribers to indicate some of those kinds of things but in general it was really good and I 'm hoping {disfmarker} and this is {disfmarker} this is good news because that means the force alignments should be good and if the force alignments , I mean it 's good news anyway but if the force alignments are good we can get all kinds of information . For example about , you know prosodic information and speaker overlaps and so forth directly from the aligned times . Um so that 'll be something that actually in order to assess the forced alignment um we need s some linguists or some people to look at it and say are these boundaries in about the right place . Because it 's just gonna give us time marks
PhD D: But you know {disfmarker}
Grad E: Well we 've done that for one meeting .
PhD C: so . For forced alignment .
Grad E: Uh oh oh f not for words
PhD C: Ye - right .
Grad E: I 'm sorry just for overlaps is we did it for not {disfmarker} not for words .
PhD C: Right . So this would be like if you take the words um you know and force align them on all the individual close talk uh close talking mikes then how good are these sort of in reality
Grad E: Right .
PhD C: and then I was thinking it {disfmarker}
Grad E: So we might want to take twenty minutes and do a closer word level transcription . Maybe actually mark the word boundaries .
PhD C: Oh or {disfmarker} i have someone look at the alignments uh maybe a linguist who can say um you know roughly if these are OK and how far away they are .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Um but I think it 's gotta be pretty good because otherwise the word recognition would be really b crummy .
Grad E: Right , right .
PhD C: It wouldn't necessarily be the other way around , if the wor word recognition was crummy the alignment might be OK but if the word recognition is this good the alignment should be pretty good . So that 's about it .
Professor B: I r
PhD D: I wonder if this is a good thing or a bad thing though , I mean if we 're pr
Grad E: That we 're starting so well ?
PhD D: yeah if we 're producing a database that everybody 's gonna do well on
Professor B: Oh
Grad E: Don't worry about it w d that 's that 's the close talking mikes . Try it on the P Z Ms and {disfmarker} and
Professor B: Yeah , which {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} which {disfmarker} well n n n n
PhD D: So the real value of the database is these ?
PhD H: Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Grad E: Yeah , abso well no but
Professor B: I mean there 's still just the w the percentages and , I mean they 're not {disfmarker} a as we 've talked about before there 's probably overlaps
PhD C: This i yeah . This is not that good .
Professor B: there 's probably overlaps in {disfmarker} in uh in fair number in Switchboard as well so but {disfmarker} but there 's other phenomena , it 's a meeting , it 's a different thing and there 's lots of stuff to learn with the close talking mikes but uh yeah certainly I 'd like to see as soon as we could , I mean maybe get some of the glitches out of the way but soon as we could how well it does with say with the P Z Ms or maybe even one of the
PhD C: Right .
Professor B: and uh see if it 's , you know is it a hundred twenty percent or maybe it 's not maybe if with some adaptation you get this down to fifty percent or forty - five percent or something and {disfmarker} and then if for the PZM it 's seventy or something like that that 's actually something we could sort of work with a little bit
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor B: so
PhD C: No I think it 's really , I mean this way we least have a baseline we know that for instance the transcripts are very good so once you can get to the words that the recognizer which is a total subset of the things you need to understand the {disfmarker} the text um yeah they 're pretty good so and {disfmarker} and it 's converting automatically from the XML to the chopping up the wave forms and so forth it 's not the case that the end of one utterance is in the next segment and things like that which we had more problems with in Switchboard so that 's good . And um let 's see there was one more thing I wanted to {disfmarker} to mention {disfmarker} I can't remember um Sorry can't remember . anyway it 's {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Congratulations is really great .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: well it was , I mean I really didn't do this myself
Grad E: Yeah , it 's really good .
PhD C: so Andreas set up this recognizer and {disfmarker} by the way the recognizer all the files I 'm moving to SRI and running everything there so I brought back just these result files and people can look at them um so
PhD A: We {disfmarker} we talked about setting up the SRI recognizer here . That 's {disfmarker} you know if {disfmarker} if there are more machines um uh here plus people can {disfmarker} could run their own uh you know variants of {disfmarker} of {disfmarker} of the recognition {pause} runs um certainly doable . Um .
Professor B: Yeah and {disfmarker} well certainly if the recognition as opposed to training , yeah .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: Seems reasonable .
Postdoc G: I need t Hmm . I need to ask one question .
PhD A: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Which is um so this issue {vocalsound} of the uh legalistic aspects of the pre - sent you know pre - adapted {disfmarker} Yeah , well , so what I mean is um the {disfmarker} uh the data that you take into SRI , first {disfmarker} first question , you 're maintaining it in {disfmarker} in a place that wouldn't be publicly readable that {disfmarker} that kind of stuff , right ?
PhD A: U um
PhD C: From the outside world or
Postdoc G: By uh people uh who are not associated with this project .
PhD A: Oh .
Grad E: It 's human subjects issues , I told you about that .
PhD C: Um oh .
Postdoc G: Exactly .
PhD C: Well OK we have n no names . Although I sh um
Grad E: That {disfmarker} that 's not the issue ,
PhD C: de audio data itself ?
Grad E: it 's just the audio data itself , until people have a chance to edit it .
Postdoc G: Mm - hmm , exactly .
PhD C: Uh so well I can {disfmarker} I can protect my directories through there .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
PhD C: Right now they 're not {disfmarker} they 're in the speech group directories which {disfmarker} so I will {disfmarker}
Postdoc G: Great .
PhD C: I didn't know that actually .
Professor B: Yeah so we just have to go through this process of having people approve the transcriptions ,
PhD C: Yeah OK .
Professor B: say it 's OK .
PhD C: Right OK .
Postdoc G: Yeah , we had to get them to approve em and then i cuz {disfmarker} cuz the other question I was gonna ask is if we 're having um you know it 's but this {disfmarker} this meeting that you have , no problem cuz I {disfmarker} I well I mean I {disfmarker} I speak for myself
Grad E: It 's us .
Postdoc G: but {disfmarker} but I think that we didn't do anything that but well anyway so {vocalsound} uh I wouldn't be too concerned about it with respect to that although we should clear it with Eric and Dan of course but these results are based on data which haven't had the uh haven't had the chance to be reviewed by the subjects
PhD C: That 's true .
Postdoc G: and I don't know how that stands , I mean if you {disfmarker} if you get fantastic results and it 's involving {comment} data which {disfmarker} which later end up being lessened by , you know certain elisions , then I don't know but I wanted to raise that issue ,
Professor B: Well we ,
Postdoc G: that 's all .
Professor B: I mean once we get all this streamlined it may be sh it {disfmarker} hopefully it will be fairly quick but we get the transcriptions , people approve them and so on it 's just that we 're
Grad E: Alright we need to work at a system for doing that approval so that we can send people the transcripts
Postdoc G: Great .
PhD A: Mmm .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad E: and get back any bleeps that they want
PhD C: Yeah actually the bleeps are also an issue I thought .
Professor B: It 's gonna be a rare thing that there 's a bleep for the most part .
PhD A: U uh actually I had a question about the downsampling , um I don't know who , I mean how this was done but is {disfmarker} is there {disfmarker} are there any um {vocalsound} issues with downsampling
PhD C: Don did this .
PhD A: because I know that the recognizer um that we use h can do it sort of on the fly um so we wouldn't have to have it eh you know do it uh explicitly beforehand . And is there any um i are there other d sev uh is there more than one way to do the downsampling where one might be better than another ?
Grad F: There are lots of w {vocalsound} there are lots of ways to do the downsampling um different filters to put on ,
PhD A: OK . Right . OK .
Grad F: like anti - aliasing stuff .
PhD A: So {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} th
Grad E: I don't think we even know which one I assume you 're using syncat to do it ?
Grad F: No , I 'm using uh SN SND uh are resample .
Grad E: Or sound resample ?
PhD C: Re - re ref
Grad E: Resample .
PhD C: yeah .
Grad E: Yeah and Dan 's archaic acronyms .
Grad F: RSMP . Yeah , I don't really .
PhD C: Missing all the vowels .
Grad F: I just {disfmarker} yeah I found it .
PhD C: Some of the vowels ,
Grad E: Not all of them .
PhD C: almost all the vowels , that 's the hard part .
PhD A: So {disfmarker} so the other thing we should try is to just take the original wave forms ,
Grad E: And a few of the consonants .
PhD A: I mean segment them but not downsample them .
PhD C: Yeah we could {disfmarker} we could try that and {disfmarker} and compare
PhD A: And {disfmarker} and feed them to {disfmarker} feed them to the SRI recognizer and see if {disfmarker} if the SRI front - end does something .
Grad F: Yeah , that 's {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad E: I suspect that 's sort of premature optimization , but Sure .
PhD C: We can try it . I {disfmarker} I only downsampled them first cuz I was
PhD A: Well {disfmarker}
Grad F: I mean that 's just one line {disfmarker} that 's one line of code to comment at
PhD C: yeah
PhD A: Right and {disfmarker} and it doesn't {disfmarker} is no more work {vocalsound} for um you know for us .
Grad F: so
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD C: Well they 're just bigger to transfer , that 's why I s downsampled them before but
PhD A: Well but they 're only twice as big so
PhD C: Well I mean that was {disfmarker} if it 's the same then we can downsample here
PhD A: I mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's just a
PhD C: but if it 's {disfmarker}
Grad F: Although those eighty meg files take a while to copy into my directories
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad F: so , but no , I mean it 's not {disfmarker} i it wouldn't be a problem if you 're interested in it {disfmarker}
PhD C: We could try that .
PhD A: Yeah I mean it would be uh you know it would probably take uh about um you know
Grad F: it would {disfmarker}
PhD A: minus the transfer time it would {disfmarker} it would take uh you know ten minutes to try and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: It 's about a fifty minute drive , right ?
PhD A: And {disfmarker} and if for some reason we see that it works better then we might investigate why
PhD C: Well it takes more disk space too so I was just {disfmarker}
PhD A: and , you know , what {disfmarker} Yeah .
Grad F: Mmm . In the front - end we could do that .
PhD A: Yeah .
Professor B: So you just train {disfmarker} just different filters
Grad F: Yeah , I {disfmarker}
Professor B: and so you 're just wondering whether the filter is
Grad F: Yeah , I can imagine it would be {disfmarker}
PhD A: Right . Right .
PhD C: So we could try that with this particular twenty minutes of speech and sort of see if there 's any differences .
Grad F: I mean I guess there 's some {disfmarker}
PhD A: You know a at some point someone might have optimized whatever filtering is done for the actual recognition um performance .
Grad F: Hmm .
PhD A: So in other words right ,
Professor B: Right .
PhD A: so
Grad E: It just seems to me that , you know small changes to the language model and the vocabulary will so swamp that that it may be premature to worry about that . I mean so one is a half a percent better than the other I don't think that gives you any information .
PhD C: Well it 's just as easy to {disfmarker} to give you the sixteen K individual ,
Grad E: Yep .
PhD C: it was just more disk space you know for storing them
Professor B: Are you {disfmarker} are you using uh uh mel cepstrum or PLP over there ?
PhD C: so
PhD A: Mel cepstrum .
Professor B: So probably doesn't matter .
PhD C: Well we could try .
Grad F: There 's {disfmarker} there 's your answer .
Professor B: But {disfmarker} but it wouldn't hurt to try ,
PhD C: Could easily try
PhD A: That 's what I would assume but you never know ,
Professor B: yeah .
PhD C: so
PhD A: you know .
Professor B: Sure . No the reason I say this
Postdoc G: Just {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .
Professor B: PLP uses uh auto - regressive filtering and uh modeling and so it can be sensitive to the kind of filtering that you 're doing
PhD A: Mm - hmm .
Professor B: but uh uh mel cepstrum uh might not {disfmarker} b you wouldn't expect to be so much but
PhD C: Well we can try it if you generate like the same set of files just up to that point where we stopped anyway and just sti stick them somewhere
Grad F: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's really not a problem .
PhD A: Actually , no .
PhD C: and I 'll rerun it with
PhD A: Don't stop . Don't stop at that part because we 're actually using the entire conversation to estimate the speaker parameters ,
Grad F: Keep going . Yeah .
PhD A: so shouldn't use {disfmarker} you should s you know , get
Grad F: Yeah , I mean I 'll {disfmarker} I have to do is eh e the reference file would stay the same ,
PhD C: OK .
PhD A: Right .
Grad F: it 's just the individual segments would be approximately twice as long
PhD A: Mmm .
PhD C: Right . Right .
Grad F: and I could just replace them with the bigger ones in the directory ,
PhD A: Right .
PhD C: I mean I corrected all {disfmarker}
Grad E: Yeah .
Grad F: that 's not a problem .
PhD C: I mean I hand - edited the whole {disfmarker} the whole meeting so that can be run it 's just {disfmarker} Once we get the {disfmarker} the bug out .
PhD A: Mmm .
Postdoc G: One {disfmarker} one question which is I {disfmarker} I had the impression {comment} from this {disfmarker} from this meeting that w that I transcribed that um that there was already automatic downsampling occurring ,
PhD A: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Postdoc G: is that I thought that in order to
Grad E: Yep .
Postdoc G: so it was {disfmarker} so it 's like there 's already down
Grad E: There 's one level that 's already happening right here .
Professor B: This is being recorded at forty - eight kilohertz . Which is more that anybody needs
Postdoc G: OK .
Grad E: Right .
Grad F: Oh .
Grad E: And it gets downsampled to sixteen .
Postdoc G: OK .
Professor B: so
PhD C: And that 's actually said in your meeting ,
Grad F: Hmm .
Postdoc G: Oh OK .
PhD C: that 's how I know that .
Postdoc G: That 's exactly , and that 's how I know it .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: I {disfmarker} I {vocalsound} It 's like are we downsampling to sixteen ?
Professor B: It 's a digital audio orientation for the board
PhD C: Right .
PhD A: Mmm .
Professor B: it 's in the monitor so it 's
PhD C: Thank God it 's not {vocalsound} more than that .
Grad E: So {disfmarker}
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: And I have no idea what filter it 's using ,
Grad F: Is eight kilohertz {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is eighty kilohertz generally accepted as like standard for voice ?
Grad E: so
Professor B: For telephone stuff .
Grad E: Telephone .
PhD D: Telephone .
Grad F: Yeah that 's what I was gonna say , I mean like {disfmarker}
Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's just that they were operating from Switchboard which was a completely telephone database
Grad F: so Oh , I see , so .
Professor B: and so that was a standard for that sixteen s
Grad F: OK .
Grad E: So sixteen seems to be pretty typical for with this sort of thing .
Professor B: Sixteen is more common for {disfmarker} for uh broadband stuff that isn't {disfmarker}
Grad F: Right .
Grad E: That isn't music .
Professor B: that isn't music and isn't telephone ,
PhD C: And I guess if you 're comparing like {disfmarker} uh if you wanna run recognition on the PZM stuff you would want you don't want to downsample the wh that
Professor B: yeah .
Grad E: Why is that ?
Professor B: I don't know .
PhD C: right ? Well I don I mean if it 's any better
Professor B: No actually I would think that you would {disfmarker} you would get better {disfmarker} you 'd get better high frequencies in the local mike .
Grad E: All the way around I 'd think .
Professor B: Uh but who knows ? I mean we do {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we wanna find all this stuff out ,
PhD C: Yeah well we could try it .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: we don't know .
Grad E: We 're gonna have plenty of low frequency on the P Z Ms with the fans .
PhD C: OK . Yeah .
Professor B: Uh yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: Oh yeah there was just one more thing I wanted to say which is totally unrelated to the recognition except that um well {disfmarker} well it 's sort of related but um good news also uh I got {disfmarker} well Chuck Fillmore agreed to record meetings but he had too many people in his meetings and that 's too bad cuz they 're very animated and but uh Jerry also agreed so uh we 're starting on {disfmarker} on
PhD A: They 're less animated .
PhD C: Well but he has fewer {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he won't have more than eight and it 's a meeting on even deeper understanding , EDU , so that sounds interesting . As a compliment to our front - end meeting
Grad E: Dot EDU ?
PhD C: and um so that 's gonna start Monday and one of the things that I was realizing is um it would be really great if anyone has any ideas on some kind of time synchronous way that people in the meeting can make a comment to the person whose gonna transcribe it or {disfmarker} or put a {vocalsound} push a button or something when they wanna make a note about " oh boy you should probably erase those last few " or uh " wait I want this not to be recorded now " or uh something like that s
Professor B: Weren't we gonna do something with a pad at one point ?
Postdoc G: The cross pads ?
Grad E: Yeah , we could do it with the cross pads .
PhD C: Cuz I was thinking you know if {disfmarker} if the person who sets up the meeting isn't there and it 's a group that we don't know um and this came up talking to {disfmarker} to Jerry also that you know is there any way for them to indicate {disfmarker} to make sure that the qu request that they have that they make explicitly get addressed somehow
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: so I don't know if anyone has ideas or {disfmarker} you could even write down " oh it 's about three twenty five and " {disfmarker}
Professor B: Well what I was just suggesting is {disfmarker} is we have these {disfmarker} this cross pad just for this purpose
Grad E: Yeah , and use that .
Professor B: and just use that
Grad E: Not a bad idea .
Professor B: and if we sink it in {disfmarker}
PhD C: That would be great .
Professor B: The other thing is eh
PhD C: That be great .
Professor B: I don't know if you know this or if it 's a question for the mail to Dan but is this thing of two eight channel boards a maximum for this setup or could we go to a third board ?
Grad E: I don't know . I don't know . I 'll send mail to Dan and ask . I {disfmarker} I think that it 's the maximum we can do without a lot of effort because it 's one board with two digital channels .
Professor B: Oh it is one board .
Grad E: E eight each . So it {disfmarker} it takes two fibers in to the one board . And so w I think if we wanna do that {disfmarker} more than that we 'd have to have two boards , and then you have the synchronization issue .
Professor B: But that 's a question because that would {disfmarker} if it was possible cuz it is i you know already we have a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a group of people in this room that cannot all be miked
Grad E: Right .
Professor B: and it 's not just cuz we haven't been to the store , right it 's {disfmarker}
PhD D: What is the limit on each of those f fiber channels , is it the
Grad E: Eight .
PhD D: It just {disfmarker} it 's eight channels come in , does it have do with the sampling rate ?
Grad E: It 's eight . I have no idea . But each {disfmarker} each fiber channel has eight {disfmarker} eight channels and there are two ch two fibers that go in to the card .
Professor B: It might be a hard limitation ,
Grad E: So
Professor B: I mean one thing is it {disfmarker} the whole thing as I said is {disfmarker} is all structured in terms of forty - eight kilohertz sampling so that pushes requirements up a bit
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: but
PhD D: I was just wondering if {disfmarker} if that could change .
Grad E: I mean then we 'd also have to get another ADD and another mixer and all that sort of stuff .
PhD D: If we could drop that .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: So I {disfmarker} I 'll send a mail to Dan and ask him .
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: OK on the uh are we done with that ? So the oth topic is uh getting more mikes and different mikes , so I got a quote um We can fit {disfmarker} we have room for one more wireless and the wireless , this unit here is three fifty {disfmarker} three hundred fifty dollars , it {disfmarker} I didn't realize but we also have to get a tuner {disfmarker} the receiver {disfmarker} the other end , that 's uh four thirty um and then also
PhD C: For {disfmarker} for each ?
PhD D: Wow .
PhD C: I mean the tuner is four thirty for each .
Grad E: Yep .
PhD C: Wow .
Grad E: And we just need one more so {disfmarker} so
Professor B: Yeah at least w we got the good ones .
Grad E: Yeah . So that 's you know something like seven hundred eighty bucks for one more of these .
Professor B: Yeah . OK .
Grad E: Um and then also um It turns out that the connector that this thing uses is proprietary of Sony
PhD D: Oh .
Grad E: believe it or not and Sony only sells this headset .
Postdoc G: Mmm .
Grad E: So if we wanna use a different set {disfmarker} headset the solution that the guy suggested and they {disfmarker} apparently lots of people have done is Sony will sell you the jack with just wires coming out the end and then you can buy a headset that has pigtail and solder it yourself . And that 's the other solution and so the jacks are forty bucks apiece and the {disfmarker} he recommended um a crown CM three eleven AE headset for two hundred bucks apiece .
Professor B: There isn't this some sort of thing that plugs in , you actually have to go and do the soldering yourself ?
Grad E: Becau - the reason is the only {disfmarker} only thing you can get that will plug into this is this mike or just the connector .
Professor B: No I understand . The reason I ask is these sort of handmade uh wiring jobs fall apart in use so the other thing is to see if we can uh get them to do a custom job and put it together for this .
Grad E: Oh I 'm sure they would , they would just charge us ,
PhD D: Well , and they 'd probably want quantity too ,
Grad E: so .
Professor B: Well
PhD D: they 'd
Professor B: no they 'll just charge us more , so it 's {disfmarker} this
PhD D: Mmm .
Grad E: So {disfmarker} so my question is should we go ahead and get na nine identical head - mounted crown mikes ?
Professor B: Not before having one come here and have some people try it out .
Grad E: OK .
Professor B: Because there 's no point in doing that if it 's not gonna be any better .
Grad E: So why don't we get one of these with the crown with a different headset ?
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: And {disfmarker} and see if that works .
Professor B: And see if it 's preferable and if it is then we 'll get more .
PhD C: Comfort .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Cuz I mean I think the microphones are OK it 's just the {disfmarker} the
Grad E: Right , it 's just they 're not comfortable to wear .
Professor B: Right .
PhD C: Could make our own handbands and
Grad E: Um , and he said they don't have any of these in stock but they have them in LA and so it will take about a week to get here .
Professor B: Yeah well it 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: Um so OK to just go order ?
Professor B: We 're in this for the long term , yeah . Just order it .
Grad E: OK
PhD C: It 's a lot of money for a handband .
Grad E: and who is the contact if I wanna do an invoice
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: cuz I think that 's how we did it before .
Professor B: Uh we 'll do this off - line , yeah .
Grad F: It 's a long time to get from LA .
Grad E: OK . And then nine channels is the maximum we can do , so .
Professor B: Uh y right cuz {disfmarker} so one is for the daisy chain so that 's fifteen instead of sixteen
Grad E: Without getting more stuff .
Professor B: and there 's six on the table so that 's nine .
Grad E: Right .
PhD C: Can I ask a really dumb question ?
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: Is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is there any way we can have you know like a {disfmarker} a wireless microphone that you pass around to the people who you know the extra people for the times they wanna talk that {disfmarker}
Grad E: Probably .
Professor B: That 's a good idea .
PhD C: I mean {disfmarker}
Professor B: That 's not a dumb question , it 's a good idea ,
PhD C: Well I mean {disfmarker}
PhD A: Like uh like you know Jerry Springer thing ,
Professor B: yeah .
Grad E: I 'm just not sure how we would handle that in the
Grad F: That 's like the Conch .
PhD C: Well but {disfmarker}
PhD D: Like at conferences
PhD A: you know r
PhD C: well but there might be a way to say that there are gonna be these different people
Grad F: See , look .
PhD C: um and I don't know identifying somehow ?
PhD D: so nail the chairs down .
PhD A: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah , somehow .
PhD C: You know I was just thinking of Jerry Springer .
Grad E: It 's not a bad idea .
Professor B: No that {disfmarker} no {disfmarker} no
PhD A:
Professor B: that 's a very {disfmarker} if we can't get another board and even if we can I have a feeling they 'll be some work .
PhD D: The Springer mike .
PhD C: I mean for the few times that you might wanna have that .
Professor B: Let 's figure that we have eight which are set up and then there 's a ninth which is passed around to {disfmarker}
Grad E: A hand - held , yeah .
Professor B: that 's a good idea
PhD D: Infinite expansion .
Professor B: Right . Kind of rules out overlap but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but uh
PhD C: Well or also for you know if people are not
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: Well we could just hand around the lapel .
Professor B: Uh no {disfmarker} no that 's {disfmarker}
Grad E: Rather than get a {disfmarker}
PhD C: No not the lapel .
Grad E: do you want a handset ?
Professor B: No .
Grad E: Well I mean is the {disfmarker} is the hand - held really any better ?
PhD D: Liz hates the lapel .
Professor B: Yes .
PhD C: I don't know
Grad E: OK .
PhD C: but I d I know the lapel is really suboptimal .
Professor B: No it {disfmarker} no it depends on the hand - held
Grad E: Is awful ?
Professor B: but hand {disfmarker} many hand - helds are built wi with sort of uh anti - shock sort of things so that it {disfmarker} it is less uh susceptible to hand noises . If you hold the lapel mike i you just get all k sorts of junk .
PhD D: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: Right . I mean the ones they really pass around must be sort of OK .
Grad E: OK .
Professor B: so
Grad E: So I wonder if they have one that will hook up .
Professor B: Yeah . They have {disfmarker} What ?
Grad E: I wonder if they have one that will hook up to this or whether again we 'll have to wire it ourselves .
PhD D: Well , you wouldn't want it to hook there you 'd just want it to hook into the receiver in the other room , right ?
Professor B: No that 's uh {disfmarker} you need a transmitter .
Grad E: What ?
PhD D: Is th isn't that built into the mike ?
Professor B: Oh I see . Get a {disfmarker} get a different radio , yeah .
PhD C: Yeah just these ones that they pass around with no you know wireless
Professor B: Yeah . But you need a ra but it has to correspond to the receiver .
PhD D: Have a little antenna coming out the bottom .
Grad E: It 's gonna be much easier to get one of these and just plug in a mike , isn't it ?
PhD D: But then the mike has to h
PhD A: Do you have to hand it around and if you have two pieces of
Professor B: No no {disfmarker}
PhD C: Right .
Grad F: Yeah .
PhD A:
Professor B: so right , so this is a good point , so yeah you have these {disfmarker} these mikes with a little antenna on the end right ?
Grad E: OK . And do you think you would be able to use the same receiver ?
Professor B: I don't know . You 'll have to check with them ,
Grad E: OK I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll ask .
Professor B: yeah . But that 's {disfmarker} that 's a great idea
PhD D: It 's just a frequency .
Grad E: Yeah .
Professor B: and then just sort of have that as the {disfmarker} and then you can have groups of twenty people or whatever and {disfmarker} and uh
PhD C: Yeah because there 's only I mean as Andreas pointed out actually I think in the large {disfmarker} the larger the group the less interaction {disfmarker} the less people are talking um over each other {disfmarker}
PhD A: Pretty soon .
PhD D: Mmm , yeah .
PhD C: it just {disfmarker} there might be a lot of people that speak once or twice and
Professor B: Right .
PhD A: Um Gotta go .
Professor B: Off you go , yeah .
Grad E: OK so I guess people who have to leave can leave and do we have anything else to discuss or should we just do digits ?
Postdoc G: I {disfmarker} I thought of some extra {disfmarker} a couple of extra things I 'd like to mention .
Grad E: OK .
Postdoc G: One of them is to give you a status in terms of the transcriptions so far . So um as of last night um I 'd assigned twelve hours and they 'd finished nine
Grad E: uh Yep ,
Postdoc G: and my goal was to have eleven done by the end of the month , I think that by tomorrow we 'll have ten .
PhD C: Uh it 's great {disfmarker}
Professor B: Pretty close ,
Postdoc G: So they 're still working .
Professor B: that 's good .
PhD C: I j and this {disfmarker} I got this email from Jane at like two in the morning or something
PhD D: Wow .
Grad E: that 's good .
PhD C: so it 's really great
Postdoc G: It 's working out , thanks .
PhD C: It 's really great .
Postdoc G: Thanks . And then um also an idea for another meeting , which would be to have the transcribers talk about the data It 's sort of a {disfmarker} a little bit {disfmarker} a little bit
PhD C: That 's a great idea .
Professor B: Super idea .
Grad E: Yep , that 'd be very interesting .
PhD C: That 's a great idea cuz I 'd like to g have it recorded so that we can remember all the little things ,
Grad F: Yeah .
Grad E: I 'd love to hear what they have to say .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
PhD C: that 's a great idea .
PhD D: So if we got them to talk about this meeting , it would be a meta {disfmarker} meta meeting .
Postdoc G: Yeah . Yeah , exa {vocalsound} exactly I guess {disfmarker} nested several layers ,
Professor B: Now you have eight transcribers and there 's ten of us
Postdoc G: but
Professor B: so how do we do this , is the only thing .
PhD C: Or just have them talk amongst themselves .
PhD D: Have them have their own meeting .
PhD C: And have
Postdoc G: Well that 's what I 'm thinking ,
Professor B: Oh .
Postdoc G: yeah . Have them talk about the data and they {disfmarker} and they 've made observations to me
PhD C: that would be great .
Postdoc G: like they say uh you know this meeting that we think has so much overlap , in fact it does but there are other groups of similar size that have very little , you know it 's part of it 's {disfmarker} it 's the norm of the group and all that and they have various observations that would be fun , I think .
PhD C: That 's a great idea .
Grad E: Yeah , I 'd like to hear what they s say .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
PhD C: Be great .
Professor B: So maybe we could {disfmarker} they could have a meeting more or less without us that {disfmarker} to do this and we should record it
Postdoc G: OK .
Professor B: and then maybe one or two of them could come to one of these meetings and {disfmarker} and could you know could tell us about it .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad E: Give us a status .
PhD C: Yeah .
Postdoc G: Oh good . OK .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: It 's {disfmarker} they will get to transcribe their own meeting but they also get paid for having a break
Grad E: That would be weird .
Postdoc G: What {disfmarker} what yeah that 's right .
PhD C: and I think that 's a good idea ,
Postdoc G: Yeah exactly , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah .
PhD C: get them involved .
Postdoc G: Great .
PhD C: Um that 's a great idea .
Postdoc G: Great .
Professor B: Super .
PhD C: I 'm really sorry I have to g no I have to go as well .
Professor B: OK .
Postdoc G: And then I wanted to also um say something about the Fiscus uh uh John {disfmarker} John Fiscus visit tomorrow . And Which is to say that w it 'll be from nine to one that I 'm going to uh uh offer the organization {disfmarker} allow him to uh adjust it if he wishes but to be basically in three parts , the acoustic part coming first which would be basically the room engineering aspects um other things and he 'll be also presenting what NIST is doing and {disfmarker} and uh then uh number two would be sort of a the {disfmarker} the transcription process so this would be a focus on like presegmentation and the modifications to the {disfmarker} the multitrans interface which allows more refined encoding of the beginnings and ends of the overlapping segments which uh Dave Gelbart 's been doing and then um uh and of course the presegmentation Thilo 's been doing and then um the third part would {disfmarker} and again he has some stuff that 's i relevant with respect to NIST and then the third one would be focus on transcription standards so at NIST he 's interested in this establishment of a global encoding standard I guess I would say and I want it , you know k yeah see what they 're doing and also present what {disfmarker} what we 've chosen as ours and {disfmarker} and discuss that kind of thing . And so but he 's only here until until one and actually we 're thinking of noon being uh lunch time so basically hoping that we can get as much of this done as possible before noon . S
Professor B: OK .
Postdoc G: And everybody who wants to attend is welcome . So
Grad E: Oh , where you 're gonna meet ?
Postdoc G: yeah . Here mostly but I 've also reserved the BARCO room um eh to figure out how that works in terms of like maybe having a live demonstration .
Professor B: OK but the nine o ' cl nine o ' clock will be i be in here . Yeah , OK .
Postdoc G: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Grad E: I assume we 're not gonna try to record it ?
Postdoc G: Oh I think that would be hard , yeah .
Professor B: Yeah , I think just adds {disfmarker}
Grad E: Alright .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: Um good .
Postdoc G: Thank you though , uh - huh .
Professor B: So maybe do digits and recess ?
Grad E: Unless there 's anything else ?
Postdoc G: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD D: Do digital ones ?
Professor B: Uh OK .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Grad E: Uh should y we make him wear Andreas ' mike or would that just be too confusing ?
Professor B: Yeah . No I don't think it 's confusing . Well , it doesn't confuse me .
Postdoc G: When we do this in the key {disfmarker} in the key {disfmarker} in the key it has to indicate that channel change ,
PhD D: Does it mess up the forms ?
Postdoc G: right ?
Grad E: Uh yeah I just don't know how we would do that , so . I mean other than free {disfmarker} free form .
Postdoc G: Well i have a time mark .
PhD D: The on switch is here on the {disfmarker} on the top there .
Postdoc G: Yeah .
Professor B: OK .
Grad E: And just clip it to your collar .
Professor B: That 's fine .
Grad J: OK , my name is uh Espen Eriksen . I 'm a Norwegian . Um uh this is my second semester at Berkeley . Currently I 'm taking uh my first graduate level courses in DSP and um when I come back to Norway I 'm gonna continue with the {disfmarker} more of a research project work {disfmarker} kind of work . So this semester I 'm starting up with a {disfmarker} with a small project through uh Dave Gelbart which I 'm taking a course with I got in touch with him and he told me about this project . So with the help of uh Dan Ellis I 'm gonna do small project associated to this . What I 'm gonna try to do is uh use {disfmarker} use ech echo cancellation to uh to handle the periods where you have overlapping talk . To try to do something about that . So currently I 'm um I 'm just reading up on echo cancellation , s looking into the theory behind that and then uh hopefully I get some results . So it {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a project goes over the course of one semester .
Grad E: Great .
Grad J: So I 'm just here today to introduce myself . Tell about I 'll be {disfmarker} I 'll be working on this .
Grad E: And are you staying at Berkeley or is {disfmarker} are you just here a semester ?
Grad J: This is my second semester and last .
Grad E: Ah second and last ,
Professor B: Yeah .
Grad E: OK .
Grad J: So I leave
Professor B: He 's in the {disfmarker} he 's in the cour two two five D course .
Grad J: Yeah , I 'm in Morgan 's course ,
Professor B: So , yeah .
Grad J: yeah .
Grad E: Good .
PhD D: Welcome .
Postdoc G: Then you {disfmarker} then you go back to Norway , that 's OK .
Grad J: Yeah .
Grad F: We were just talking about something like this yesterday or yeah yesterday with Liz . About doing some of the {vocalsound} echo cancellation stuff or possibly the spectroanalysis over the overlaps , so . Cool .
Grad J: Yeah .
Professor B: OK ,
Grad E: Digits ?
Professor B: let 's do digits . OK .
Grad E: And stop .
Query:
Summarize what was said about the microphone data
Answer:
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The group discussed recognition results generated for 20 minutes of close-talking microphone data. Recognition performance was very good, indicating promising results for forced alignment procedures and the ability to analyze other important signal information, e.g. prosody and overlapping speech. It was decided that close-talking data should be downsampled and fed to the SRI recognizer to compare recognition performance, and that data from the far-field microphones should be tested on the recognizer as soon as possible.
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call the meeting to order. Welcome to the seventh meeting of the Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. We will proceed to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements. That's confirmed. We will now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. Once the petition is presented, the member is asked to bring it here to the Table. Mr.Manly is the first one to be allowed to present a petition.
Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I rise today to present a petition that has many signatures from constituents in NanaimoLadysmith. They're calling for a ban on cosmetic testing using animals. They want us to follow the European Union model, under which the use of animals in cosmetic testing has been banned. Moving forward, they're calling for a ban on the sale and manufacture of animal-tested cosmetics and their ingredients in Canada.
The Chair: Mr. Poilievre is next.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre (Carleton, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I rise today to table e-petition 2466, initiated by a constituent of mine in Stittsville, a beautiful west Ottawa community. The petition has collected 827 signatures from every province and territory. It was collected by Cara, a mother from my riding who suffered an unthinkable tragedy. Her 11-year-old son Joshua drowned in a boating accident on the St. Lawrence River at Rockport, Ontario. Joshua was not wearing a life jacket. Worse, Cara's family had to wait 48 days to recover Joshua's body. Cara is now working tirelessly to amend the small vessel regulations to make it mandatory for children under the age of 14 to wear a life jacket or PFD while they are passengers in or drivers of small vessels covered under parts 2, 3, and 4 of the regulations. I support Cara's efforts, and I'm honoured to table this petition on her behalf.
The Chair: Seeing no further petitions to be presented, we'll continue, and we will now proceed to the questioning of ministers. Please note that we will suspend the proceedings every 45minutes to allow employees who provide support for the sitting to replace each other safely. Go ahead, Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition): It was revealed yesterday that this government's policy was to ignore fraud. The Prime Minister's reaction was to act as if everything was normal. In fact, we've learned that over 200,000cases of suspected fraud have been identified in the benefit applications. The Prime Minister is failing our future generations. Our children and grandchildren are going to pay back billions of dollars that he's borrowing to pay tax cheats. Will the Prime Minister protect taxpayers and immediately begin a review of these 200,000cases of suspected fraud?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): Our priority was to get money out quickly to all Canadians who needed it, and that's exactly what we've done. Millions of Canadians have received the money they so desperately needed. Having said that, I want to make it very clear, Mr.Chair: Fraud is unacceptable. We have measures in place to detect fraud. All fraudsters will be required to pay back the money they fraudulently received from the government. We're going to make sure that this is done in the coming months.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, Conservatives agree that those who need help should get it, and no one is arguing that they shouldn't, but reports indicate that the Liberals have ordered public servants to turn a blind eye to 200,000 cases of suspected fraud. It's a simple question: Yes or no, did the government instruct any government department to ignore red flags or warnings of fraudulent cases?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, the priority in this situation was getting money out to the millions of Canadians who needed it as quickly as possible, but of course fraud is unacceptable. That's why we have put safeguards in place to ensure that anyone who received that money fraudulently will have to repay it.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: It's a yes-or-no question, Mr. Chair. Did the government give any kind of instruction to public servants in any department to ignore red flags or warnings of fraudulent cases, yes or no?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: The instruction to government officials was to get money out to those who needed it as quickly as possible. We have put measures in place to detect fraud. People who got this money fraudulently will have to repay.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, it is clear that he can't answer a yes-or-no question, so we can all assume what the answer must be. In other situations, the government is saying no to people. It's letting so many Canadians down. Small business owners who don't happen to have a CRA payroll number or a business account are ineligible for the government supports. Individuals, owner-operators, and those who are earning $1 more than $1,000 are being told that they don't qualify for the emergency response benefits. Meanwhile, fraudsters are getting them. Does the Prime Minister think it's fair to tell people who are following all the rules no, while telling government officials to allow fraudulent cases to be processed?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, Canadians well know that this is an unprecedented situation, one in which we had to get help to as many Canadians as possible as quickly as possible. That is exactly what we did. We continue to work very hard to fill gaps for people who should get money but haven't been able to, and, as I said, we have strong measures to counter fraud. Anyone who got this money fraudulently will have to repay it.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, when these programs were first designed, the Prime Minister said that he acknowledged that there were problems and that they would be fixed later. Well, here we are in May, and hundreds of thousands of Canadians are being told no for purely technical and bureaucratic reasons. Will the Prime Minister make the simple changes to allow business owners who don't happen to have a business bank account, who don't happen to have a CRA payroll number and individuals who are ineligible for the emergency response benefit because they've been paid by family members through dividends to qualify, or is he going to continue to let hundreds of thousands of Canadians down during this pandemic?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, from the beginning of this pandemic, we moved extremely rapidly to get help and support to millions of Canadians. That was the priority, and that's what we've been doing for the past two months. As we've said, we will continue to tweak and improve the programs to make sure that more people who need help will get it. We are working the best we can, as fast as we can, to help those millions of Canadians who need support.
The Chair: You have time for about a 15-second question, Mr. Scheer.
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr. Chair, the Prime Minister indicated that he would support Taiwan's inclusion in the WHO only as a non-state observer. Of course, that designation does not exist. Participants of the WHO are either states or NGOs. Will the Prime Minister support Taiwan's participation as a state observer?
The Chair: The Right Honourable Prime Minister has 15 seconds or less, please.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, we will continue with our one China policy, but we have always advocated Taiwan's meaningful inclusion in international bodies where it makes sense to do so, and that includes at the WHO.
The Chair: Mr.Blanchet now has the floor.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you very much, Mr.Chair. On Friday, students in Quebec and Canada will be able to apply for the Canada emergency student benefit, which is a good thing. This program was necessary, particularly because the number of students who won't be able to get back their jobs from last year is much higher than the number of jobs that might be available to these young people. There are also issues of duration. We don't know how long these jobs will remain unavailable. People talked about a risk to being in the labour market and meeting the needs of the labour market. On April29, the Deputy Prime Minister made a formal commitment to ensure that these programs are accompanied by work incentives for youth and all CESB recipients. So that everyone knows what they're getting into, I'd like to know whether the employment incentives that will accompany the Canada emergency response benefit will be known by Friday.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I thank the hon. member for understanding the importance of supporting students who, for the most part, won't be able to get the summer jobs they were counting on. Young people don't just want to earn money; they also want to gain work experience. That's why we're setting up programs, including Canada summer jobs, but also another program with 76,000new jobs for young people in important sectors, so that young people can also get jobs. We will continue to work with youth and employers to ensure that gaps in the labour market are addressed, while ensuring that youth are well-supported.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: That's very interesting, but it doesn't answer my question at all. People in the fishing, tourism and agricultural sectors, as well as municipalities and, from the very beginning, of course, the Government of Quebec, more generally, have expressed fears that job gains will cause people to lose their benefits and discourage them from going to work. The only way to avoid that is to ensure that people keep more money as they work more. That is the principle. In fact, we propose that over the $1,000no-penalty limit, half of the earnings be exempt from penalty. Is this something that could be considered? Since it's been two weeks since the commitment was made and it's urgent, can we act now? The emergency shouldn't last eight months.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, young people need money, but they also need work experience. This is an unprecedented situation, which is why we're working with seasonal industries and the different regions to make sure they have a sufficient workforce in their situation. Students can be part of it, but at the same time we must provide the necessary support for those who can't find a job. That's why we continue to work with the industries involved to ensure that they have a sufficient workforce while we support students.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Unfortunately, the spirit of it doesn't seem to have been understood. I doubt that, even in the best-case scenario, the government will be able to get all the jobs needed in a timely manner for all these young people to decide to go ahead. So, first of all, there will be a shortage of jobs. Second, people aren't crazy. If they earn less by working than they earn by not working, all the good faith in the world won't solve the problem. Can we make sure that people keep more money in their pockets as they work more? I think we can have a clear answer, given the timeframe. People are going to start registering for the program on Friday. The principles are good, but a clear answer would be good too.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Beginning Friday, students will be able to apply for the Canada emergency student benefit. When they apply, they'll all be directed to a job bank that we've set up to make sure they know what jobs are available to get not only the money they need, but also the experience they need for their future, while helping our society in this crisis. I know we're going to be able to count on young people.
The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, one of the most devastating outcomes of this COVID-19 crisis has been the impact on seniors. Eighty per cent or more of the deaths during COVID-19 have been seniors living in long-term care homes. The military had to be called in. Out of 14 countries, Canada has been deemed the worst in its care of seniors. Despite all this, the Prime Minister has said recently that he doesn't feel it's the federal government's responsibility to find a solution. How can he say to families reeling with loss that it's not the federal government's responsibility to play a role in solving this problem?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, perhaps the fact that the NDP no longer has many seats in Quebec has caused it to forget the importance of respecting the Constitution and the areas of jurisdiction of provincial versus federal governments. We will be there to work with the provinces as they deal with challenges in their long-term care facilities. We are there as a partner, but we, on this side of the House, will always respect the jurisdiction of the provinces and be there to support them in fulfilling those responsibilities.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Everyone across Canada has just heard this Prime Minister double down on the idea that he doesn't feel it's his responsibility, despite the fact that the Canadian military had to go into long-term care homes. There is a role that the federal government can play. Both Liberal and Conservative federal governments have been consistently, for decades, cutting transfers to health care. They can increase those transfers to ensure long-term care is adequately funded. We could also ensure that there's a national care guarantee, working with provinces to ensure that we are meeting the best standards. We could increase workers' pay. We could ensure that there's no more profiting off the backs of seniors when it comes to long-term care. Will the Prime Minister commit to some of these care guarantees?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: It will come as exactly no surprise to the vast majority of Canadians that the Liberal Party will always stand up for the Constitution of Canada. We respect the Constitution. We respect areas of provincial jurisdiction. As I have said from the very beginning of this crisis, we will be there to help the provinces as they manage the challenges they're facing. The federal government does have a role to play, and it is a role to support the provinces in doing the things they need to do during this unprecedented time. We will continue to be there.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: I am glad to hear the Prime Minister is no longer trying to hide behind jurisdiction. We know that in long-term care homes, the for-profit long-term care homes have been the site of the worst conditions, where the greatest number of seniors have died. Will the Prime Minister join us in committing to remove profit from the long-term care system? Vulnerable seniors should not be subject to the profits of a company willing to cut services, staffing and quality of care instead of ensuring that seniors get the best care possible.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I think it has become clear for all Canadians that we need to improve the care offered to our seniors right across the country. We cannot look at these numbers we are seeing and these tragedies hitting so many families and not want to see us as a country do better. That is why we of course recognize that we will work with other orders of government, particularly the provinces in whose jurisdiction this area rests primarily, to support answering these questions for the long term on how we improve the way Canada supports our elders. This is something really important that we will be there for.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: At the CHSLD Herron in Dorval, 31seniors died in one month. The residents were left without food, dehydrated and without care, and those with COVID-19 symptoms were not isolated from the others. Families pay between $3,000 and $10,000 a month for their loved ones to be at the centre. How can the Prime Minister think that he doesn't have a role to play in finding a solution to this devastating problem?
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr.Chair, all Quebeckers and even all Canadians were stunned to learn of the tragedy at the Dorval CHSLD. We were very happy, as citizens, when the Government of Quebec reacted firmly and asked many questions in connection with this situation. We will support the Government of Quebec in its efforts to find answers and, most importantly, to ensure that, in the long term, the country will better support seniors in all regions.
The Chair: We'll continue with Mr.Poilievre.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Mr. Chair, how many emergency response benefit cheques have been sent to people whose applications have been flagged as fraudulent?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos (President of the Treasury Board): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I'd like to start by quickly saying that a total of 7.7million Canadians have received the Canada emergency response benefit, which is absolutely essential for
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How many emergency response benefits have been sent out to people whose applications have been flagged as fraudulent?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, I see that the pace will allow me to give a little bit of information for each question. As we said at the outset, there will be mechanisms
The Chair: Mr.Poilievre has the floor.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How many?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: We're working very hard.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How many?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: We're working very hard to ensure the integrity of the mechanism while at the same time taking important steps to help Canadians.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How many emergency response benefit cheques have been sent to people whose applications have been flagged as fraudulent?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: A total of 7.7million Canadians have received the Canada emergency response benefit, and the agency is ensuring the integrity of the system.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: He's now claiming that it's all 7.7 million? That's crazy. The department is reported to have given out 200,000. Is 200,000 the correct number of cheques that have been sent out to people whose applications have been red-flagged as fraudulent, yes or no?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, I'm pleased to use the opportunity given to me by the hon. member to make the following clarifications. I thank him for it. First, approximately 7.7million Canadians have received at least one payment. Second, almost 11million payments have been made.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: How many prisoners have received a Canada emergency response benefit cheque?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: This allows me to go even further and thank the hon. member again. Some 7.7million Canadians have received emergency assistance in an emergency situation
The Chair: Mr.Poilievre has the floor.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: So now he's claiming that 7 million Canadians are in jail? The question was this: How many prisoners have received a benefit cheque?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, jokes can be made about the plight of Canadians who are suffering tremendously in this crisis, but I'm not here to make
The Chair: Mr.Poilievre has the floor.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Even the CBC is saying that prisoners are receiving the cheque. They can't have lost their jobs. They were already in prison. It's a simple question: How many prisoners have received the cheques?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I'd like to remind hon. members that we're talking about an extremely serious situation, a situation that has called into question people's ability to make ends meet, a situation that required emergency measures. We're going to continue to do the job that Canadians expect.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: The question was, how many prisoners have received the cheques?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I've already explained to the hon. memberand I'm pleased to remind himthat this benefit is an emergency measure.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: The Auditor General says that he's dropping half of his audits because the government refuses to provide him with funding. If the government has enough money to send 200,000 fraudulent applicants emergency cheques, why won't the government give the Auditor General the funding he requested?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I thank the hon. member. It gives me the opportunity, in this emergency situation, to talk about the role of institutions, including that of the Auditor General, which we will continue to support because it helps us do things right.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Then what does the Auditor General have to do to get the money to do his audits? Does he have to file a bunch of fraudulent applications for an emergency response benefit?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, because I know the hon. member well enough, I'm sure that he isn't givingand doesn't want to givethe impression that the Auditor General wants to commit fraud to do his job properly.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: I agree, and that's why he should get the money he needs to do his job. He did twice as many audits under the previous government as he is doing now, but he doesn't have the money to do the audits he needs to do to keep an eye on this government's extraordinary spending. Yes or no, will the government give the Auditor General the funding he has requested so he can get back to doing the same number of audits he did under the much more robust funding of the previous Harper government?
The Chair: The hon. Prime Minister.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, the previous government cut funding to the Auditor General and caused the office to lay off dozens of employees. We increased the funding for the Auditor General. We recognize the important work the Auditor General needs to do, and that's why we increased the funding for the Auditor General. The party of the member opposite cut this funding.
The Chair: I appreciate the help from some of the members in keeping time. I do have my own chronograph here, so I'll take care of it from this end, but I appreciate the help. Thank you. I now give the floor to Mr.Deltell.
Mr. Grard Deltell (Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC): Mr.Chair, I fully agree with the Treasury Board President that we aren't here to make jokes, but to set the record straight for Canadians. Yesterday, the National Post reported on the front page that 200,000people had fraudulently used emergency assistance. Is that statement accurate, yes or no?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, I thank the hon. member from my region. A few minutes ago, I was reminding people in my region that, in the greater Quebec City area, about 200,000people had received this emergency benefit and that it was not for fraudulent reasons, but because they really needed it.
Mr. Grard Deltell: The question is about fraudsters, and I know that there aren't many of them in Quebec City. That said, my question is very simple. I want to know whether or not 200,000people fraudulently used emergency assistance.
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I know my colleague already knows this, but we announced at the outset that strong and rigorous mechanisms would be put in place quickly to ensure that this delivery would respect the importance of integrity in government.
Mr. Grard Deltell: The integrity of the government must be upheld, and this must be done by telling the truth. Yesterday, the National Post reported on the front page about 200,000fraudsters. Is that correct, yes or no?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: To set the record straight, the Minister of National Revenue, Ms.Lebouthillier, made it very clear that there was no tolerance for fraud in this system, that all mechanisms would be put in place to ensure that integrity would be respected.
Mr. Grard Deltell: The Treasury Board President is one of the few Canadians to find that Ms.Lebouthillier was very clear yesterday. With respect to the Minister of National Revenue, I would point out that the member for RichmondArthabaska asked her a very clear question yesterday, which she was unable to answer. What does a person who has received the full CERB, $2,000, and returns to work this week have to do? Do they have to pay back the amount they aren't entitled to? Do they keep the$2,000? Do they have to wait and include it on their next year's tax return? Which of these three options should the person choose?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I thank the hon. member for his question, which is very relevant. In fact, that person must contact Service Canada or the Canada Revenue Agency, depending on the system under which he or she received this benefit, and ensure that, in the circumstances that apply to him or her, the decisions and actions taken are appropriate.
Mr. Grard Deltell: It's too bad, Mr.Chair, because it's the boss who is in front of me, here in committee. It's good that the citizen calls the public servant, but the public servant's boss is the Treasury Board President. Can he give a clear indication to citizens? What should they do now with the emergency assistance they received with this month's benefit? Should they keep it in full or pay it back now? I'd like a clear answer, please.
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Again, I recognize the importance of insisting on clarity. What's clear here is that each person must make decisions based on his or her own circumstances, and the responsible way to act is to interact with public servants at Service Canada or the Canada Revenue Agency.
Mr. Grard Deltell: Service Canada employees must have clear instructions from their boss. The boss is here. This is the President of the Treasury Board. Could the President of the Treasury Board, in very clear terms, tell the employees answering questions from Canadians what they have to say to those currently receiving the Canada emergency response benefit, but who are actually at work? These are honest people. They are not fraudsters. They want to comply with the law. Can the President of the Treasury Board give them clear instructions?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: That is extraordinary, because my colleague focused on two key terms: honesty and hard work. In terms of the honesty of Canadians, in all cases, I am convinced that they will contact the appropriate officials. As for the hard work of those officials, they know what they have to do and they have been doing it in an exemplary way since the crisis began.
Mr. Grard Deltell: And yet those good officials, whom I frequently commend on social media for their excellent work, have no clear instructions from their boss. Mr.President, let me go back to the basic question. The National Post said that 200,000Canadians have used the emergency assistance fraudulently, to the tune of $1.6billion. Is that the case, yes or no?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I am sure that the honourable member is not questioning the ability of Canada Revenue Agency officers to follow the very clear directive of ensuring that the mechanisms reflect the importance of maintaining the integrity of the Government of Canada during the exceptional circumstances we are experiencing.
The Chair: We'll now go on to Ms. Gray.
Mrs. Tracy Gray (KelownaLake Country, CPC): Mr. Chair, last week British Columbia unveiled its plan to begin reopening its economy. I've been speaking with many business owners and business associations in my riding, and I'm hearing that they're not getting their orders for cleaning supplies. Some businesses have said their back orders go back to March. They do not know how they can possibly reopen if they are not meeting health cleaning standards or accessing PPE for their employees and customers. They are well aware of the issues arising from this government's reliance on Chinese manufacturing rather than building capacity here. What is the government doing to address these issues and ensure wholesale supply companies get products now so that they can distribute them to the businesses that need them?
Hon. Anita Anand (Oakville, Lib.): Mr. Chair, our government is rapidly and aggressively buying life-saving equipment that Canada needs from a diverse range of suppliers. We are building up domestic capacity as well as procuring internationally. Our priority is to make sure front-line health care workers have the support they need. In terms of other areas of the economy, we are working with our federal and provincial counterparts to make sure that we can do so in collaboration with them.
Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr. Chair, an ongoing concern I've heard from small business owners is that they are ineligible for CEBA because they don't have a business account. When I brought up this point to small business minister Ng at committee, she said it was the first time that she had heard of this issue and that she would follow up. I asked this question on April 23, and it's now been almost three weeks. Small business has been let down. Can the government confirm that they're going to fix this issue?
Hon. Navdeep Bains (MississaugaMalton, Lib.): Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for her question. It is really important that this program that we've established help small businesses. We have shown in the past that we're very flexible and nimble in accommodating the needs of businesses. I assure the member opposite that we are looking into this matter and will come forward with a resolution in a timely manner.
Mrs. Tracy Gray: Mr. Chair, I just read another email from a small business owner this morning who has been let down by the government. He chose to pay off debts instead of paying himself a wage; therefore, he's ineligible for CEBA, for that loan. Owner-operators have been eliminated from participating in government programs because they did not put themselves on the payroll. This shows a true lack of understanding of small businesses and especially of owner-operators. Will the government commit to fixing this issue?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Thank you very much. Again, I want to thank the honourable member for her question. We have focused particularly on small businesses to make sure they have the appropriate support they need. With regard to the program that she highlighted, we have shown flexibility in the eligibility criteria by decreasing the payroll threshold for individual companies that want to apply for this loan to $20,000 versus $50,000, and the upper limit has gone to $1.5 million versus $1 million. We will continue to bring forward the changes necessary to have more businesses
Mrs. Tracy Gray: This government has left Canadian craft breweries out to dry, like the hops in their beer. On April 24, the Canadian Craft Brewers Association released a report on the effects of COVID-19 on the Canadian craft brewing industry. The report states that 38% of craft brewers did not qualify for the Canadian emergency wage subsidy in March, and 53% were either not sure or predicted that they would not qualify in April. Many a brew pub, like BNA in my riding, due to higher payrolls are also not eligible for the CEBA loan. They have been left out and let down. Five per cent of these breweries have already closed permanently, and others are on the verge of doing so. A portion have stepped up and are making PPE. Will this government take the initiative to support this industry by amending program requirements?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: When it comes to the Canada emergency wage subsidy, we have demonstrated flexibility and nimbleness. The program requirement changed in terms of revenue threshold. We originally had 30% for the month of March. We changed that to 15%. The eligibility criteria to compare to the first two months of this year now also compare to the previous year as well. We're going to continue to make changes to make sure more businesses can access this program.
The Chair: Ms. Gray, you have 33 seconds.
Mrs. Tracy Gray: In my constituency, Okanagan fruit production is a huge industry, and many apple orchardists have brought concerns to me regarding high costs, apples from last season selling below cost, the CUSMA agreement not helping the industy, and low-priced Washington apples flooding our market. COVID-19 has exacerbated their dire financial situation. The BC Fruit Growers' Association has called the government announcements of measures for agriculture underwhelming. I questioned Minister Bibeau in the House a couple of months ago, and at the time she did not have an answer. What is the plan to help our orchardists?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau (ComptonStanstead, Lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Since this crisis began, we have been helping entrepreneurs in all sectors. We began with measures to assist small, medium and large companies, and we are now going progressively sector by sector. Last week, we announced additional funding for agriculture
The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr. Barlow.
Mr. John Barlow (Foothills, CPC): Mr. Chair, in my riding of Foothills, we've established a Foothills business recovery task force. We surveyed hundreds of small business owners about the effectiveness of the emergency programs put forward by the government. The results of that survey were quite alarming. More than half of the respondents have not qualified for any of the programs, and the vast majority of them have said their businesses will not last more than another month. Will the government expand the eligibility for some of these programs to include sole proprietorships, or is the government still looking at refunding the GST paid by some of the businesses over the last year?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, I want to highlight the fact that we have issued 590,000 loans through the CEBA account. This demonstrates that this particular program is working and that businesses are taking advantage of it. We recognize that we want to be more generous and more thoughtful about these programs. We've demonstrated flexibility in the past and we will continue to be nimble going forward.
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, to the Minister of Agriculture, Dr. Charlebois said that we are on the precipice of losing 15% of our farms and that 30,000 farm families are at risk of bankruptcy. This will have a devastating effect on our rural economies. Does the minister know the impact that losing 30,000 family farms will have on our food security and the price of groceries on the store shelves?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, the agriculture and agri-food sector is extremely important. We have clearly stated that it is an essential service. That is why we have risk management programs that are already well established. I understand that producers would like the programs to be more generous, and we are ready to do more, but they first need to use those programs. They have $1.6billion available
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, business risk management programs don't apply to every single stakeholder and the programs are not working for the producers. There is a bottleneck right now in our processing capacity. When the minister renounced the AgriRecovery program, funds were set aside for cattle and pork producers. When is that money going to be available, and how long will it last?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: We are talking about two different programs here. We added $77.5million to the program helping the processing sector and $50million on two occasions for our pork and beef producers under the AgriRecovery program. Once again, that is additional money. In recent years, an average of $15million have gone out of this program, whereas this year
The Chair: Mr. Barlow.
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, it is not new money; it has been budgeted year after year and it's budgeted again for next year. The cattlemen said that the set-aside funds that the minister is talking about are already gone and did not last even two weeks. If this government isn't assisting Canadian farmers, is the government's food policy to rely on food imported from foreign countries to feed Canadian families ?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, the fund to assist our beef producers cannot have already disappeared because the criteria will be unveiled in the coming days. I can assure you that we are working as efficiently as possible so that the program can be rolled out and the money can be channelled to our beef and pork producers.
Mr. John Barlow: Mr. Chair, producers across this country have said that an exemption from the carbon tax would help them greatly during this pandemic. When I asked the minister about any data that was available for the impact the carbon tax had on agriculture, the answer I got was that this information was secret. Yesterday at committee, the minister said that this was a mistake and that this information has been public. My staff and I looked everywhere last night, as did journalists, and that information could not be found. Is that information actually available?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Yes, Mr.Chair, that information is available and public. I will happily pass the information on to my colleague.
Mr. John Barlow: If that data is available, then the minister must know the financial impacts that the carbon tax has on Canadian farmers. With the information that the minister apparently has, does she agree with the Prime Minister that Canadian farmers are much better off financially by paying the carbon tax?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Each organization analyzes different assumptions, methodologies and geographic areas, so the results give a broad range of estimated impacts. According to the organization that has provided information, in 2019, the estimated impacts of a $20-per-tonne price on pollution due to grain drying ranged
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Barlow. You have 30 seconds, please.
Mr. John Barlow: Does the minister agree with the Prime Minister that farmers are financially better off paying the carbon tax?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, the price on pollution is an extremely important measure for our economy in general and for our transition to a greener economy. We have already provided various exemptions to the agriculture sector: for gasoline, for the access card and for the greenhouse sector.
The Chair: The next question goes to Mr. Kelly.
Mr. Pat Kelly (Calgary Rocky Ridge, CPC): Will the government fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The answer is that we have done that in 2018 and 2019, and the Prime Minister
Mr. Pat Kelly: Mr. Chair, I hope the minister would not want to mislead the House. The office is certainly not fully funded, as per the testimony we heard yesterday at the finance committee. This government has expanded the Auditor General's responsibilities without adequate resources. When will the government fully fund the Auditor General?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: To continue my answer, and as the Prime Minister said just a moment ago, that has led to the hiring of 38 new staff members. That's great to hear, because they are doing even better than they used to before we came into power.
Mr. Pat Kelly: No previous auditor general in Canadian history has ever had to tell a parliamentary committee that they had insufficient funds to do their job. That is what in fact this Auditor General has done. When will the government fully fund the Office of the Auditor General?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: I'm glad again to be given the ability to say how important the work of the Auditor General is. We believe very much in that role. That's why we increased the funding that is necessary for that office to do its important job. We will keep working hard with the Auditor General.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Sadly, Michael Ferguson passed away in 2019, yet the government has refused to name a permanent replacement. Why?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr. Chair, this is another wonderful opportunity to remind all members of this House of the importance of these institutions. When we face these tragic deaths, we of course are very sad of the passing of the people, and we work
The Chair: Go ahead, Mr. Kelly.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Yesterday the Parliamentary Budget Officer said that Canada's debt could reach $1 trillion this year. What will it cost to service a $1-trillion debt?
Hon. Bill Morneau (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, we remain committed to doing, as we've said, whatever it takes to support Canadians through this challenging time. We think this is extremely important, and we will continue to focus on the well-being of all Canadians.
Mr. Pat Kelly: What is the estimated annual debt servicing cost of the aid measures announced so far?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, there will be an opportunity for us to give a full outline of the costs and benefits of our measures, and we will do that when we have the ability to have
The Chair: Mr. Kelly.
Mr. Pat Kelly: is Canada's AAA credit rating.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Speaker, Canada came into this crisis with a very strong fiscal position, and of course we will experience challenges as we move forward, but we believe that we should experience those challenges as we support Canadians.
Mr. Pat Kelly: What would the effect of a downgrade be on Canada's debt servicing costs?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we will continue to focus on how we can support Canadians and Canadian businesses as we get through this challenge.
Mr. Pat Kelly: How many private sector bank loans have been funded for small and medium-sized businesses under the business credit availability program?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, as the information on the business credit availability program becomes available, we are being fully transparent with the finance committee and with this House.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Does the minister know how many loans have been funded under that program?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I'm not in the habit of memorizing every single number available to us, but what I can confirm is that we will be transparent with this House on the numbers as they become available.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Does the minister know the dollar amount or the approximate dollar amount so far lent and guaranteed by Export Development Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, one number that would probably be helpful for people to understand is that we've now had over 550,000 approved loans under the CEBA program, representing over 20 billion dollars' worth of money that's actually
The Chair: Mr. Kelly.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Will the government fix the CEBA program to include businesses that pay owner-operators through dividends?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I think the language fix is incorrect, for more than 500,000 businesses have received this loan. Of course, we are always endeavouring to make sure it works for as many businesses as possible.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Will the government fix CEBA to cover small businesses that hire day labourers or subcontractors?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, again we've demonstrated flexibility and nimbleness when it comes to this program. We changed the eligibility criteria to make sure that more businesses can apply and be eligible for this program. We will endeavour to make sure that more Canadians have access to this program, particularly small businesses in rural and remote communities.
Mr. Pat Kelly: Will the government fix CEBA to cover business owners who use personal instead of business chequing accounts to operate their business?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Again, Mr. Chair, I want to highlight the fact that this has been a very positive program and well received by many small businesses. Over 590,000 small business loans have been issued, and that's a testament to the design of the program. We're going to make sure we continue to engage with small businesses.
The Chair: The next question goes to Mr. Chong.
Hon. Michael Chong (WellingtonHalton Hills, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Last week, on Friday, Statistics Canada was to release labour force survey data at 8:30 a.m. eastern time, one of the most important and market-moving indicators of the month, but someone in the government leaked that information ahead of time, almost 45 minutes ahead of time, and exclusively to Bloomberg terminal users on Wall Street and on Bay Street, who pay thousands of dollars a month for those terminals. Moving markets, the Canadian dollar moved eight basis points in that short period of time and billions were made or lost on the market. Section 34 of the Statistics Act makes it a criminal offence for someone to leak information that might influence stock, bond or currency markets. Has the government notified the RCMP about what appears to be a criminal breach of the Statistics Act?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. I, too, share the same concerns that he's highlighted with regard to this leak. This is completely unacceptable. That is why we're going to make sure that a proper and thorough examination is done, and going forward we want to make sure that no such breach or leak occurs.
Hon. Michael Chong: Mr. Chair, Statistics Canada said that staffers and ministers' offices, including the Prime Minister's office, the finance minister's office, the employment minister's office and the industry minister's office, would have received this secret information no earlier than 2 p.m. the previous day. Statistics Canada has also indicated that it has begun an internal investigation. Will the minister commit to fully co-operating with this investigation?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I'd like to remind the honourable colleague that our government has supported Statistics Canada. We're the ones who reintroduced the mandatory long-form census. We're the ones who funded more money for Statistics Canada. The member opposite knows that we'll be fully co-operative in any such investigation into any leak.
Hon. Michael Chong: Will the minister commit to making the results of this investigation public?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, the member opposite knows full well that there are proper processes and protocols in place when it comes to such sensitive matters, and we will ensure that those processes and protocols
The Chair: Mr. Chong.
Hon. Michael Chong: Mr. Chair, I hope there is no double standard for ministers' offices and the public service, because it was only about 13 years ago that a public servant was criminally charged and convicted for using top secret information in the markets. I hope that in this investigation, and in the release of the information concerning this investigation, ministers' staffers aren't held to a different standard than the public service has been held to. This leak speaks to the integrity of the government. Intelligence at the Five Eyes.... Our four allies have been telling us for years that one of the top two or three threats that democracies are facing is declining public confidence in our key institutions. Democracies have been blindsided by misinformation, disinformation and cyber-attacks, and now we are being blindsided by the misuse of information by this very government. That doesn't even.... The government's own national statistics-gathering agency doesn't trust this cabinet or this government, and that's why they announced several days ago that they would suspend the pre-release of information to the cabinet. What is the government going to do to restore public confidence in our institutions?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, our government has remained steadfast in its support for Statistics Canada. I'd like to remind my honourable colleague that we are the government that brought forward legislation to strengthen the independence of Statistics Canada. We're the government that brought forward measures to make sure they have additional monies for conducting the proper mandatory long-form census as well. When it comes to the leak that the member opposite is talking about, we're not going to prejudge the outcome. We have been very clear that the proper processes and protocols that are in place will be followed.
The Chair: You have time for a very brief question, Mr. Chong.
Hon. Michael Chong: Mr. Chair, I hope the government will call the RCMP and notify them about what appears to be a criminal breach of the Statistics Act, because it was a previous Liberal minister who himself was subject to a lot of misinformation and was a target of improper allegations about his office's use of information that leaked about the income trust changes that the previous Liberal government had brought in. The RCMP began an investigation and, in the course of the investigation, they charged a public servant who was ultimately convicted of breaching that secret information. I hope the minister holds his office and the offices of his cabinet colleagues to the same standard, calls in the RCMP and makes them aware of what appears to be a criminal breach of the Statistics Act.
The Chair: The honourable minister, in 30 seconds or less, please.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I'm sorry. How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?
The Chair: We're over the time, but I'm allowing 30 seconds so we can get a full
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I appreciate that very much. Again, I want to take this opportunity to say that leaks of this nature are completely unacceptable. We've been very clear that we are going to take the appropriate steps. Statistics Canada is taking the appropriate steps. I want to remind the member opposite that we're not going to prejudge any outcome at this stage. Again, it is our government that has been consistently supporting Statistics Canada in its work through the previous years.
The Chair: Thank you. We'll take a short break to allow our console operators to switch in a healthy way. While we're doing that, I'm going to mention something. It happens at the end of a question. When there's less than a minute left and the question goes over half the time left over, I'll just indicate to the person asking the question that we've reached the limit so that the other side can answer with the same amount of time and we have a fair playing field. We're ready to go again. The Honourable Member for BeloeilChambly has the floor.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Thank you, Mr.Chair. We are making progress, but unfortunately, I'd like to hear it in French as well. I will address my question to the Prime Minister. First, let me remind you that, on March12, the government announced a first series of measures of about $1billion to adapt to what was at the time the beginning of the coronavirus crisis, including $500million in transfers to the provinces, with about $100million going to Quebec. Since that time, the commitments from the government have reached very probably around $300billion, making those first $500 million pale by comparison. Of course, the crisis became longer and it is not over yet. In that context, and given what I heard the Prime Minister say a little earlier about respecting the areas of jurisdiction of the provinces, and of Quebec, can we expect a speedy increase in health transfers to Quebec and the provinces, an increase that would be permanent, and, of course, without conditions?
The Chair: The honourable minister has the floor.
Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Thank you, Mr.Chair. We've increased health transfers to provinces and territories significantly since we first came into government in 2015. We continue to work with provinces and territories on a regular basis to make sure they're supported not just in the outbreak of this pandemic, but in the increased cost overall to health care across the country. Our investments have included investments for mental health, for home care and for the additional expenses that provinces and territories face as a result of an aging population. We'll continue to work with provinces and territories to ensure those health care needs are met.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: With all respect, Mr.Chair, that is a little disappointing. While the leader of the NDP wants the federal government to interfere massively in provincial jurisdiction over health, the Prime Minister replies in English. That is perfectly legitimate in this Parliament, but his reply in English is, no, the government absolutely respects provincial jurisdiction. That made me happy for a brief moment, and I am asking the Prime Minister, without wanting to interrupt his precious reading, to please repeat in French was he said just now in English, that he absolutely respects provincial jurisdiction over health, which is exclusive. So could you please provide that music to my ears?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, just as I respect the member opposite's right to speak in his first language, I hope that he understands that I am trying to learn our second official language in a high-pressure situation, and it often creates anxiety. I will tell him, though, that we fully respect the jurisdiction of provinces and territories to address the needs of their constituents and their members, and we work very closely with Quebec and with all provinces and territories to make sure that the funds we transfer from the federal government can be utilized in a way that best meets the needs of their constituents.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Let's not get into that. It says to me that French is the second official language. Well, it's my first official language and it's the first one in Quebec. I would like to have heard that in French. I would like to have heard it from the Prime Minister, because it's a constitutional issue. Basically, you could say that it's our heritage. So that is what I would like to have heard. Let me proceed with a short and simple question: is health in the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces in the current crisis management situation?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons): Mr.Chair, I would like to tell my colleague that we have no first or second official language. We have two official languages. They have the same value and the same importance. They deserve the same respect in the House and in the institutions of the government. We are always happy to collaborate with the provinces and to respect their jurisdictions.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: Hearing that we have no first or second official language is better already. Between friends, let's say that they are equal. Let us take it one step further: is health in the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, we live in a federation where we work closely together with provinces and territories so that we can reach our mutually important goals, one of which is that all citizens of Canada, all members of Canada, have access to a public health care system that meets their needs. We continue to work within the constitutional framework
The Chair: Excuse me, but I have to interrupt you. Mr.Blanchet, you have 21seconds left.
Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: The answer could be even shorter than the question. Is health in provincial jurisdiction? Will there be an increase in the health transfers and will they come without conditions?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I am sure the member would argue that it is important to work together. The federal government transfers money to the provinces, as he is well aware, to deliver health care, which is within each province's and territory's jurisdiction.
The Chair: We now move to Mrs.Gill.
Mrs. Marilne Gill (Manicouagan, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. As the member for Manicouagan, I would like to address the House today on a matter that is very important in my constituency. At 350,000square kilometres, it borders the Gulf of St.Lawrence. Regionally, I am also in eastern Quebec, which includes the Gasp, the Magdalen Islands, and the Lower St.Lawrence. These are regions whose economy rests basically on two very important seasonal industries: tourism and fishing. Make no mistake, it is not the workers who are seasonal, it is the industry itself, as our former leader Gilles Duceppe so rightly used to say. Those industries are very important for that region of Quebec, but I see no measures to support them that accommodate all their uniqueness. These are cyclical industries, meaning that they operate at a very specific period during the year. A few minutes ago, I heard the Prime Minister say that he had intervened to help the companies and the workers in those seasonal industries. I would like to know what the specific assistance is and how it is tailored to the companies and the workers in the seasonal industries he mentions.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, I would like to thank my colleague for her question. We know that the current situation is causing upheaval in the lives of Canadians from one end of the country to the other and that it is having a major impact on our small and medium businesses. Since this crisis began, we have not hesitated to implement strong and speedy measures to support more Canadians. That is what we will continue to do. We know that the tourism sector is key to a number of communities in the country. We must help them to get through this crisis as best we can. We are continuing to have discussions and to tailor our measures so that as many Canadians as possible can take advantage of them.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: Mr.Chair, with all respect, I am hearing that nothing has been done. Measures have been proposed, but, as I understand it, they are not specific to the seasonal sectors. Let us take the seasonal fishing industry. The fishers are currently going out, but right in the middle of the COVID-19 crisis. One fishing season has been pushed back. The same thing applies to tourism. The season will be pushed back, and it is possible that there may even not be one. The people and the companies in this sector have no second chances. They cannot start again in the fall. It's a bit like agriculture. They can't start a fishing season or a tourist season in the fall. So they need assistance. We have some proposals. For example, would the government be prepared to let the Canada emergency response benefit provide workers with eligibility to employment insurance benefits? They could then get through the coming year and make it to next season.
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, I want to thank the member for speaking about the situation in all regions of Canada, particularly in Quebec. From the start, we've been implementing significant measures to support the millions of workers who are currently struggling. We've taken significant measures with respect to tourism, agriculture and regional development. We're providing broader investments, such as the wage subsidy and emergency loans for small businesses, of which there are many in my colleague's constituency. We'll continue to work very hard so that the workers and businesses in her constituency can get through this crisis and emerge stronger and more united.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: Mr.Chair, that's strike two. This is the second time that I've asked a question about targeted assistance for the seasonal industry. My honourable colleague's response doesn't make me feel any better. The workers in the industry also don't feel any better when they see that, at the end of the summer, they'll have no job and no money to put food on the table. Will these workers receive assistance adapted to their needs? It's the same thing for businesses. We're currently talking about the businesses in my constituency, but there are also businesses in the East. Quebec and Canada as a whole, both in terms of fishing and tourism
The Chair: The honourable President of the Treasury Board has the floor.
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Thank you, Mr.Chair. My colleague probably knows the information that I'll be giving. The Canada Emergency Response Benefit is available to all individuals who haven't been receiving employment insurance benefits since December2019. A number of stakeholders in Canada and Quebec called for this, particularly in the places
The Chair: The next question goes to Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. The Prime Minister announced the business bailout, and in that proposal, he said that there would be limits on CEO bonuses and share buybacks. By saying limits, the Prime Minister is suggesting that there would be some amount of bonuses or share buybacks that could be paid for with public dollars. If that's the case, how much?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we believe that it's very important that we support jobs. In that regard, we're trying to make sure that businesses can get through this time. As we provide that support, we've been very clear for large enterprises that share buybacks will not be allowed, period, and that there will, of course, be limitations on total compensation for senior executives in order to give Canadians confidence that we're doing the things we need to do to support them, but that we're not supporting executives.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, Germany has actually taken the lead and said that if a company wants public money, then its executives must commit to reducing their pay. Will Canada follow Germany to ensure that public dollars go to workers and not to enrich the executive suite, and commit that no public money will go to bonuses or increasing salaries for executives?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we are looking forward to releasing the complete details of the large employer emergency financing facility, and I think the member opposite will be quite pleased to see that we will be leading on behalf of Canada in advance of what Germany is doing.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, we know the PBO has said that $25 billion, at least, is being lost to our revenues because corporations are avoiding paying their fair share. Will the Prime Minister commit today very clearly that if a company is hiding its money by putting it in an offshore tax haven, that company will not receive public help, yes or no?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, again with regard to this program, we want to be very clear that the support that goes to large businesses actually supports their Canadian enterprises and their Canadian employees. In that regard, we will not allow any company that has been convicted of tax evasion to have access to these funds, and we will carefully evaluate on an ongoing basis to make sure that companies remain eligible for this support based on their continuing investment in Canada.
The Chair: Mr. Singh.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, how many companies can the Minister of Finance name that have been convicted of tax evasion that would be denied help under this program?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I think what's most important is that we focus on Canadians. We're trying to support Canadians, whether they're working for small or large businesses, so they can get through this, can support their families during this time, and come out with a job at the end of it. That is exactly where our focus lies in this regard.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, not a single company. We are four years past the Panama papers and there hasn't been a single conviction. Those are simply fancy Liberal words saying that a company that has been convicted of tax evasion.... There are simply no companies that this government can give as an example. Why don't we follow what France has done and commit very clearly, not in Liberal fancy words but straight up, if a company is hiding its money by using offshore tax havens, it will not get public help. Will the minister commit to that right now?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we've been working with France and other countries to make these rules stricter for businesses. The process around the common reporting standard and the base erosion profit shifting has made it more difficult for firms to move money into tax havens, and it has ensured that we have transparency in seeing when they do so. We'll continue to do that hard work to make sure that businesses abide by the rules and pay their appropriate part of taxes in our country.
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Chair, let's talk about hard work. If a company is not convicted of tax evasion, but is putting its money in Barbados or Bermuda, for example, specifically to avoid paying taxesand we have a similar example of Loblaws doing something like thiswill that company, despite not having a conviction, but clearly having avoided paying their fair share by putting their money in an offshore tax haven, receive help, yes or no?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I'd suggest that the member be very careful in accusing companies of wrongdoing. We have a country that respects international rules. We allow our companies to trade and do business around the world. That continues to be important, and that supports Canadian jobs. At the same time, we're trying to make sure those international rules work and get tighter. That's what we've been working on. We'll continue to do that because we know it's important that we can work internationally. It's important that companies pay their fair share here in Canada.
The Chair: The next question goes to Mr. Hoback.
Mr. Randy Hoback (Prince Albert, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Liberals hand-picked ambassador to China, Dominic Barton, stated that China's conduct during the pandemic is damaging to its own soft power. However, when asked if there should be an investigation into China's behaviour during the crisis, the health minister stated that's not for her to say because she doesn't have all the evidence about what China did or didn't do. Why is Canada's ambassador to China criticizing China's actions during the pandemic while this Liberal government is defending it?
The Chair: The honourable Deputy Prime Minister.
Hon. Chrystia Freeland (UniversityRosedale, Lib.): Mr. Chair, Ambassador Barton is an excellent representative of Canada in China, and he is a member of our government and very much shares and helps to formulate our government's policy when it comes to China. Ambassador Barton, of course, shares our government's view that a post-crisis review is absolutely necessary.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, the government's March 27 duty deferral announcement has caused tension within the trade community. Customs brokers are being asked to shoulder tremendous liability as importers are not required to make duty payments until the end of June, when there is a real possibility that some of them may find themselves insolvent. Will the government commit to a liability exemption for customs brokers whose clients are unable to pay the duties at the end of June?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we have worked hard to determine programs that we think can be supportive of individuals and businesses, including allowing for deferral of taxes through this period. That we believe is important with respect to the GST, which we've allowed to be deferred until July 1, and in terms of taxes for businesses, until the end of August. We think this helps businesses to get through this challenging time, and we'll continue to support businesses and individuals so we can have a strong economy when we get through this crisis.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, the following three questions are from constituents in my riding, so hopefully, I'll get some good answers for them. The first one I'll talk about is Rick. He owns a small business, a local bowling alley, in Melfort. It's a family-owned operation, so he doesn't meet the payroll threshold for the wage subsidy benefit, nor does he qualify for any other announced loans or grants. There are businesses right across Canada that are in similar situations. Is the minister suggesting that they lie to get the funds, or will they make some changes so they qualify?
The Chair: The honourable minister.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I want to highlight some of the initiatives we have put forward to assist small businesses. The Canada emergency wage subsidy covers 75% of the wages of employees, and that way they can maintain their jobs. We've also put forward the enhanced work-sharing program. It's an option for businesses to pay their employees. On top of that, I want to highlight the Canada emergency business account, which has issued 590,000 loans. As the Minister of Finance recently mentioned, we've deferred GST and HST and customs duty payments for businesses for the next three months.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, Robert owns a cleaning products company in Prince Albert. He tells me that Canadian custodians and building service contractors are not purchasing Canadian-made disinfectants because very few are included in the federal approval list for COVID-19, even though Canada produces many products that Health Canada has certified as disinfectants. Why is the Liberal government not prioritizing the approval of Canadian-made products?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, that assertion is not correct. In fact, we have been working very closely with producers of Canadian products as well as with our colleagues at Innovation, Science and Economic Development to make sure that Canadian companies have what they need to very quickly move through the approval process. Health Canada has accelerated this process, and most companies can get approved in one to seven days. Of course, there is an iterative process that requires companies to ensure that a product is safe for use in Canada.
Mr. Randy Hoback: Mr. Chair, last week the government announced $252 million in assistance for Canadian farmers, which was largely seen as an insult, especially given that a good amount of this money was already budgeted. A constituent of mine, Tracy, from Melfort, wrote to me asking me to advocate for farmers and ranchers so they can get the support they need to continue to produce our food. When will the government start to prioritize farmers and ranchers? Will they continue to reform the business risk management program?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Absolutely, Mr.Chair. We're working very hard with our provincial colleagues to improve the risk management programs. We did announce programs last week, and some of these new programs are designed specifically for the meat sector. A total of $77.5million is earmarked for processors and $50million for beef producers.
The Chair: The next question goes to Mr. Calkins.
Mr. Blaine Calkins (Red DeerLacombe, CPC): Mr. Chair, provinces are reopening at different speeds, and that includes opening their provincial parks before the May long weekend. It no longer makes sense for fully staffed national parks across the country to be uniformly closed. Will the Minister of Environment commit to opening national parks in harmony with provincial and territorial parks across Canada?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, we are working very closely with our provincial partners on the reopening. I am pleased that we were able to publish, on Tuesday, April 28, shared guidelines on the reopening, which were supported by the Prime Minister and all of the premiers of the provinces and territories
The Chair: Mr. Calkins.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, boating is a safe way to enjoy the outdoors while maintaining physical distancing. Why is Parks Canada postponing the opening of lock operations and similar functions along our heritage waterways?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, as I was saying in my answer to the first question, the question of coordinating national and provincial parks is a very good one. That is something we are definitely working on.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, since the beginning of this pandemic, the minority Liberal government has been actively trying to push our democracy aside. It severely limited parliamentary sittings, attempted to take executive control of tax rates and used an order in council to ban lawfully acquired and responsibly owned firearms. When will the government stop using this pandemic as an excuse to run roughshod over our cherished democratic values?
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: I don't understand this question at all, since we're meeting here to ask questions for twohours and 15minutes. That's the equivalent of three question periods. Yesterday, there was the equivalent of two question periods, and tomorrow there will be the equivalent of two more question periods. We're talking about seven question periods. That's more than normal.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, the inconsistency in support for various sectors in our economy is baffling. There is more money made available to forcibly confiscate lawfully owned property than in emergency support for our hard-working farmers or our prosperity-creating oil and gas sector. The only consistent theme appears to be that sectors that do not traditionally vote Liberal are finding themselves left out in the cold. If that is not the case, why is there such an obvious discrepancy?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, those comments are completely unjustified. We're fully committed to our sectors, including the energy sector and the agriculture and agrifood sector. This is particularly important. These sectors are critical. That's why we're working to improve our risk management programs. We want to ensure that the criteria are broader and that more producers can benefit from these programs.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, during the misinformation briefing, the public safety minister used Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom as examples for firearms policy. Does the public safety minister realize that these countries are islands and none share a border with anyone, least of which with the United States of America? Is my bringing this new-found evidence to the minister's attention going to change his focus to smugglers, gangs and criminals, instead of wrongfully blaming lawful gun owners?
Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Mr. Chair, I would like to assure the member that I have actually seen an atlas. I want to be very clear that those countries have recognized, like Canada has, that these weapons have no place in a civil society. They were designed for soldiers to engage in combat with other soldiers. They were not designed for hunting and sporting purposes, which are the lawful uses of a firearm in Canada, but rather for individuals to kill other individuals. Tragically, in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom, that is precisely what they have been used for, and we have prohibited
The Chair: Mr. Calkins.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, the nine o'clock gun is an iconic 12-pound cannon that has been fired daily in Vancouver in Stanley Park since the 1800s. It's now a prohibited firearm as of May 1, 2020. Can the minister advise the public of the safety risks that this cannon, which was manufactured in 1816, poses to the public?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, I assume the member opposite is referring to the prohibition of grenade launchers. There are about 34 in Canada and we have brought in regulations that now prohibit grenade launchers. It does not apply to some of the other things that have been suggested by the member opposite.
Mr. Blaine Calkins: Mr. Chair, I was referring to the iconic, heritage 12-pound cannon that is mounted on a pedestal in Stanley Park. It was manufactured in 1816. Any cannon that can be fired can be loaded with a projectile, so it meets the definition of a firearm, which means that every cannon in Canada, every heritage piece that might be in a museum, every heritage piece that might be in a collection, is now a prohibited firearm. Was the minister not aware of this when he announced this policy?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, just to help the member opposite, let us be very clear. We have prohibited weapons that were unfortunately widely available in Canada and were being used for purposes other than sporting activities, which is the only use of a firearm in Canada, for either hunting or target shooting sporting activities. Rather, they were being used to harm individual Canadians and, in some tragic cases, many individual Canadians. We've done the right thing, Mr. Chair, and we
The Chair: We'll go to Mr. Nater next.
Mr. John Nater (PerthWellington, CPC): Mr. Chair, agricultural societies across rural Ontario are making the difficult decision to cancel their fall fairs this year. Some of these fall fairs have been around since before Confederation. Not only is this a terrible loss for these communities of important community events, but it's also putting a significant financial strain on these agricultural societies. What action is the government taking to support agricultural societies in Canada?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, what we've done is we've put forward monies to support our regional development agencies. These agencies have the mandate and the ability to support local initiatives, including the events the member has highlighted. This is more than doubling the budget that currently exists, so that we have sufficient resources to support communities and these very important local events.
Mr. John Nater: Mr. Chair, the arts and culture industry has a massive impact on local economies. In my riding alone we have the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, the Stratford Festival, Drayton Entertainment and Stratford Summer Music. The postponement and cancellation of the seasons of these important cultural institutions is having a massive impact on the hospitality industry, including local restaurants, hotels and bed and breakfasts. Many of these businesses are small businesses and owner-operated businesses that are falling through the cracks in the government's programs that have been introduced. How will the government address the blind spot in their programs for small businesses in communities like this, which rely on the tourism and the arts and culture industries?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, clearly, we understand how important these organizations are to these communities. That is why we allocated $500 million to respond to the specific financial needs of arts, heritage and sports organizations, to help them be more resilient through this difficult time. Last week we rolled out the funding of this announcement, and we look forward to engaging with communities across the country.
Mr. John Nater: Mr. Chair, 1.8 million jobs are attributed to the tourism industry in Canada. Among these, 740,000 are related to international travelling. No one wants to see the borders reopen until it's safe to do so, but can the government provide clarity on what criteria will be used to provide some information to these tourism operators of how, when and under what criteria international borders will be reopened?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the member opposite for his view that we need to be cautious and prudent and put the health and safety of Canadians first. That is very much the view of our government as well. When it comes to international borders, the health and safety of Canadians is absolutely the first criterion we are going to look at. Of course, we will be looking at the situation with coronavirus
The Chair: We'll go back to Mr. Nater.
Mr. John Nater: Mr. Chair, many Canadians continue to fall through the cracks of programs announced by this government. One of my constituents only recently returned to the workforce after spending many years out of the workforce raising her children. As such, she doesn't qualify under the $5,000 minimum requirement for income over the past 12 months. How will the government address these people who are falling through the cracks?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr. Chair, we are mindful of the very difficult circumstances in which many Canadians who have a foot in two places find themselves. We have a number of different measures to help them and we're going to continue to do so.
Mr. John Nater: Mr. Chair, it has been reported that as many as 15% of farmers and farm families in Canada could face going out of business and bankruptcy because of the massive impact that COVID-19 is having on agriculture in Canada. Business risk management programs are not working for these farm families, and the processing capacity is simply not there for farmers and for farm families, especially in the beef and pork industries. How will the government immediately address the short-term processing capacity issues found in the beef and pork sectors? When will they finally live up to the commitment of a complete review of the business risk management programs?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr.Chair, I've been holding discussions with my provincial counterparts to review the risk management programs. With respect to the AgriStability program, we've offered producers some accommodations and pushed back the enrolment date to July3. We've also increased, from 50% to 75%, the advance payment that they can obtain quickly, in provinces where this is possible. We've also posted a calculator online. So before they say that the program isn't working, I encourage them to use this calculator to find out how much they can receive.
Mr. John Nater: Mr. Chair, this government continues to show a blind spot for small businesses in Canada. Many don't qualify for the CEBA because they don't have a high enough payroll or because they don't have a business account. So many small businesses are falling through the cracks. Will the government expand the criteria so that small businesses in my community and across Canada can qualify for the important assistance they need at this time?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, I would like to remind my honourable colleague that we did expand the eligibility criteria threshold from $50,000 down to $20,000 so that more businesses could be eligible, and on the top end, for salaries, from $1 million to $1.5 million. That is why we have seen 590,000 small business loans issued. That's a testament to the program.
The Chair: The next question will go to Mr. Maguire.
Mr. Larry Maguire (BrandonSouris, CPC): Mr. Chair, hog and beef producers have seen drastic price drops. Producers are telling me that they would use the western livestock price insurance program if the premiums were affordable, which they are not. Will the Minister of Agriculture work with the industry to make the premiums affordable so that producers can have price protection against these market fluctuations?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Mr. Chair, we're working closely with the industry and my provincial counterparts to identify the best programs to help producers in this difficult time. Last week, we announced specific programs for the meat sector: $77.5million for processors, $50million for beef producers and $50million for pork producers.
Mr. Larry Maguire: Mr. Chair, Chez Angela Bakery in Brandon has seen tremendous success since it opened two years ago. Due to this growth and the eligibility criteria for the wage subsidy program, their revenues would have to decline much further than 30% in order for them to receive help. Will the Minister of Finance amend the eligibility for the wage subsidy program so that Chez Angela and similar businesses can apply?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC)): The honourable Minister of Industry.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the honourable member for his question. I want to highlight the fact that we did make an amendment. When we originally proposed this initiative, the threshold was 30% for the month of March. Now businesses will only need to show a 15% decline in revenue, and businesses will have the option of using January and February as a reference period to show revenue losses, or of using the same time last year. This reflects, again, our ability to understand the needs of businesses, to act quickly and to make sure that they benefit from this very important initiative.
Mr. Larry Maguire: They still don't qualify, Mr. Chair. The Blarney Stone restaurant in Killarney has repeatedly asked the Minister of Finance if they could refinance their loans through the Canada small business financing program. Will the Minister of Finance give small business owners the ability to refinance their existing loans through the program, yes or no?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, again, we've demonstrated flexibility and nimbleness when it comes to these financing options. I'd also like to highlight another very important initiative that was mentioned earlier, the deferring of GST/HST and customs duty payments for businesses for the next three months. This will help 3.2 million business owners and entrepreneurs across the country. Again, it's another initiative to put more money in the pockets of businesses as they deal with this unprecedented health care crisis.
Mr. Larry Maguire: Mr. Chair, the Liberals still haven't fixed the payroll eligibility problems for many small business owners who need to access the zero-interest loans available in CEBA. Can the minister provide any rationale for why countless small businesses are not being allowed to access these loans?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, as of today, 590,000 small business loans have been issued. I think that's contrary to the point the member opposite is making. Clearly we recognize that we need to be agile and that we need to understand the needs of businesses. That's why we made changes to this particular program. We'll continue to listen to businesses. I can assure the member opposite that 590,000 small business loans is no small feat.
Mr. Larry Maguire: Mr. Chair, Canada has some of the best competitive sport shooters in the world. The Liberals' order in council on firearms will put an end to many Canadians being able to represent our country. Can the Minister of Public Safety list even one of these sport shooting competitions, which will now be illegal due to his order in council?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable Minister of Public Safety.
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, it's an important question because sport shooting is a very important tradition for many Canadian sport shooters. I want to assure the member opposite that the weapons we have prohibited by this order in council were not designed for sport shooting and are not used in the Olympics or Paralympic Games. They are not included in this and therefore have no impact on that activity of legitimate sport shooting.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have time for one more short question, Mr. Maguire.
Mr. Larry Maguire: Mr. Chair, statistics show that women are more likely to live paycheque to paycheque, so women continue to be disproportionately impacted by this pandemic in a negative way. Many are worried they won't have a job to go back to. Will the government commit to helping women who are bearing this financial burden return to the workforce?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr. Chair, this is a very good question. I would love to have a lot of time to answer it. The answer is yes, of course. We are making sure that many of our measures do not disproportionately impact women, because when women succeed, all Canadians succeed.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now continue with Mr.Blanchette-Joncas.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas (Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLes Basques, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. It's a privilege to be here in the House today to represent the people of Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLesBasques, but also to serve as the BlocQubcois tourism critic. Tourism in Quebec is a significant economic engine and wealth creator. This industry is vital to the regions of Quebec, as I'll demonstrate. The tourism industry in Quebec generates over $15billion in economic spinoffs and employs more than 400,000workers. In Quebec, one in tenjobs is connected to the tourism industry. Every dollar spent on tourism generates about 70cents in the Quebec economy. The tourism industry consists of over 30,000businesses, and two-thirds of these businesses are outside the major centres in the Quebec City and Montreal regions. In the tourism industry, 82% of businesses have fewer than 20employees. This shows once again the need to support this industry. I heard my honourable colleague on the other side of the House say that a plan was in place for the tourism industry. I want to hear what he has to say about this plan. To date, what specific measures has the government taken to support the tourism industry?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, I want to thank my colleague for his question. He's right. The situation is very difficult for all regions of our country and for Quebec. That's why we've invested in regional development. These investments will improve the situation in the tourism sector. These investments will provide assistance for festivals, programs and other initiatives. We'll continue to work with my colleague and the other members to find solutions that will improve the situation.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas: Mr.Chair, I'm not sure that I fully understood the plan. However, I can say that the people in the tourism industry don't understand the plan, because they're still waiting for it. One issue in the tourism industry involves fixed costs. Initially, we asked that part of the wage subsidy be set aside to cover fixed costs. The government implemented the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance. The assistance covers 75% of commercial rental payments under $50,000, and property owners pay the remaining 25%. To date, how many applications have been submitted under this program?
Hon. Bill Morneau: The wage subsidy is very significant. However, we know that there are other fixed costs. That's why we've taken other measures, such as the measures related to credit and rent. We've combined several measures that will help companies bridge the gap until the end of the crisis.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas: We expect to hear a figure and not necessarily words. We could see that the program was ineffective, particularly for seasonal businesses, including businesses in the tourism industry. Businesses need to have suspended operations or to show a decline of at least 70% in operations since the start of the public health crisis. How can a tourism business that hasn't yet launched operations show a decline of 70%? It doesn't make sense. A recent survey conducted by the Canadian Federation of Independent Business shows that only one in ten businesses can benefit from this assistance. Yet these businesses need the assistance. Does the government believe that commercial rent assistance is effective even though only one in ten businesses can benefit from it?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, I know that the situation is very difficult. That's why we've introduced another option. Through the community futures development corporations and business development centres, we're providing $71million to businesses and organizations in rural communities by giving them much-needed access to capital. This investment will help many businesses in Quebec, particularly in the tourism sector.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Blanchette-Joncas, you have one minute left.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas: Mr.Chair, in my humble opinion, one out of ten businesses amounts to 10%. This figure isn't very high and is far from a passing grade. What does the government plan to do? Does it plan to implement an expanded program to support businesses in the tourism and seasonal industries to ensure that fixed costs are more fully covered?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, we have a strategy. We've invested in regional development and in small and medium-sized businesses. We've helped the workers and we'll continue to work with the provincial governments to find solutions. We must work together, particularly in the tourism sector, because the situation in the sector is very serious. I'm sure that we can find solutions to help improve the situation for people in the tourism sector.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will now continue with Mr. Van Bynen.
Mr. Tony Van Bynen (NewmarketAurora, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I would like to inform you that I will be splitting my time with the member for Kingston and the Islands. Mr. Chair, last week was Mental Health Week. We know that the COVID-19 pandemic has caused a great deal of stress and uncertainty for all Canadians and that during this uncertain time, it is normal for many people to feel increased anxiety, depression and mental health issues. In fact, a poll by the Canadian Mental Health Association's Ontario branch showed that 61% of respondents were worried about the mental health of a loved one and more than half of the respondents were worried about their own mental health. In the Standing Committee on Health, we've also heard from many witnesses that our front-line heroes, working around the clock to protect us from the virus and to help others recover, are at great risk of physical and mental burnout. This shows how seriously Canadians need supports for their mental health and well-being during this most trying time. Can the Minister of Health tell my constituents what the government is doing to support Canadians during this uncertain time?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, I thank the member for NewmarketAurora for that very insightful question. In fact, we've been very worried about Canadians' mental health as resulting from the pandemic, but even prior to that we knew that we needed to create rapidly more tools for Canadians across the country, no matter where they lived. We've worked very closely with our provincial and territorial partners, for example, to amplify the work that they're doing through increased supports, financial supports. We also launched Wellness Together Canada, which is a digital portal, where all Canadians can get access to tools they can use to help with the circumstances they find themselves in and to get the information they need during COVID-19. It also allows Canadians to connect to paid professionals who can provide support in a variety of different ways, whether it's over the telephone, through email or by text, understanding that Canadians have different ways of connecting that work for them. We've also partnered with a number of organizations that provide supports to Canadians, many of the crisis hotlines, for example, that are working double-time or triple-time to try to keep up with the volume of demand. This is a difficult time for all Canadians and we will continue to work to ensure Canadians have the supports they need.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go to Mr. Gerretsen, from Kingston and the Islands.
Mr. Mark Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands, Lib.): Mr. Chair, students from across the country have been significantly impacted by the effects of COVID-19. As we know, thousands of post-secondary students depend on employment throughout the summer in order to pay for expenses throughout their academic year. Unfortunately the pandemic has resulted in the closure of many businesses and organizations that would normally employ students who work during the summer. Thousands of students are now left without the financial means they were depending on to pay for their post-secondary educational expenses. In response to the concerns raised by students, the government announced the creation of the Canada emergency student benefit, which will provide students with the assistance they need to make it through these uncertain financial times. I represent a riding that has multiple post-secondary institutions, and my constituents have been asking when they should expect to apply for the Canada emergency student benefit. Can the President of the Treasury Board please give us an update on the status of the Canada emergency student benefit, and in particular, when students will be able to start accessing this benefit, and also confirm if and how it may be retroactive?
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr. Chair, I would first like to thank the member for Kingston and the Islands for his strong advocacy in favour of young Canadians in his riding and across Canada. Mr. Chair, our government is committed to ensuring that young Canadians have the support that they need during this very difficult time. That's why we are investing $9 billion to support students and recent graduates affected by COVID-19. The measures include doubling the Canada student grants, raising the cap on student loans, creating new employment opportunities for students and launching the Canada emergency student benefit. I'm pleased to share with the House that the application period for the Canada emergency student benefit will commence on May 15. That is this Friday. This benefit will provide $1,250 a month to eligible students or $2,000 for students who have disabilities or dependants. Mr. Chair, when Canada emerges from this pandemic, we want to make sure that students are in a financial position to continue their studies so that they can pursue fruitful careers and help build a strong Canada.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll wait a few seconds before moving on to the next five-minute period to allow the console operator to switch with someone else. We'll next go to the honourable member for Calgary Skyview, Ms. Sahota.
Ms. Jag Sahota (Calgary Skyview, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Victims of human trafficking continue to suffer during this crisis. Many are facing worse conditions and additional barriers to escaping human trafficking than before the pandemic. The government has been completely silent on this issue, and now funding to fight human trafficking is being taken away from front-line organizations. Why would the government choose to do this at this vulnerable time?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, human trafficking is, as we all know, one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. Our government is working to eliminate all instances of it. To combat human trafficking, we've launched a comprehensive national strategy that brings together federal efforts under one strategic framework. We have backed that new move with $75 million in additional investments, and the new strategy now strengthens Canada's ability to fight this abhorrent attack on human rights and human dignity.
Ms. Jag Sahota: Mr. Chair, this simply isn't good enough. The government is letting down our most vulnerable Canadians. We know that human trafficking hasn't stopped during this pandemic, and these front-line organizations have received the message that supporting them in fighting these heinous crimes is not a priority. What is the minister going to do to rectify this situation?
Hon. Bill Blair: As I said, we have developed a national strategy to combat human trafficking. We've made $75 million in additional investments, and this new strategy takes a whole-of-government approach. It empowers victims and survivors to regain their self-confidence and control over their lives, and it will prevent more of these crimes from taking place. It provides better protection and support for those most vulnerable to human trafficking, and it will ensure that police and prosecutors have the resources to prosecute these traffickers for their heinous crimes. Mr. Chair, we'll continue to work collaboratively with victims groups and to provide the supports that are required.
Ms. Jag Sahota: Mr. Chair, more vulnerable Canadians continue to be let down. There are effective medications that have been developed for those living with cystic fibrosis, yet this medication is not available here. We know that the pharmaceutical company has not been able to apply to market this drug in Canada because of the changes to the PMPRB, which have been heavily criticized by stakeholders and patients. Will the minister delay the July 1 implementation date and review the regulations so that drugs like Trikafta are made available in Canada?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: Mr. Chair, there are two separate issues in that question, so I will talk about the PMPRB. As a government, we are committed, as you know, to increasing affordability of and accessibility to Canadian medications, to medications across Canada, and the PMPRB regulatory amendments will help Canadians to be able to afford their prescriptions. Canada will continue to be an important market for new medicines. In fact, many countries with much lower prices for medicine gain access to new medicines in the same time frame as Canada, or even faster.
Ms. Jag Sahota: Mr. Chair, for those living with a rare disease, every single day can be a struggle. We know the importance of lowering drug costs, but not at the cost of life-saving drugs not being available here in Canada. Waiting years for the government to reduce regulations is not an option. We also know that the nature of the disease makes those people more susceptible to contracting COVID-19, and they are at a higher risk of its being lethal. Why is this government continuing to let those with CF struggle and suffer needlessly?
Hon. Patty Hajdu: I believe the member opposite is talking about the drug Trikafta, and many cystic fibrosis patient groups have been advocating having access to it in Canada. In fact, the manufacturer of Trikafta has not submitted an application to market this product in Canada. However, that said, we do have a special access program for drugs that are not marketed in Canada. As of May 6, Health Canada approved 95 applications for 98 patients to access Trikafta through the special access program. I would encourage all patients with cystic fibrosis to speak to their doctor to ensure that they too can apply through the special access program.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have time for one short question of 45 seconds.
Ms. Jag Sahota: We know the importance of lowering drug costs. As you know, 4,300 people suffer from this rare genetic disease. Most of them are children and young adults. One young woman from Calgary is a CF champion, fighting for her passion to be a famous opera singer. She's very talented. Her reality of living with CF has meant that she has had many visits to the hospital and had many health crises that have made singing impossible for a time. CF patients are waiting for this drug, which was fast-tracked in other countries. Now it seems that the changes to the PMPRB will cause further delays or complications. Will the minister delay the implementation and review the PMPRB?
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Honourable Minister, please provide a short response.
Hon. Patty Hajdu: I will just repeat that the manufacturer has not applied to sell this drug in Canada.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we will go to Mr. Lobb of HuronBruce.
Mr. Ben Lobb (HuronBruce, CPC): Thank you very much. On July 25, 2019, after the federal-provincial-territorial agriculture meeting, the agriculture minister promised big changes in 2020 for programs like AgriStability and AgriRecovery. Besides a pilot program in a couple of provinces and an application deadline, is there anything else you would like to report?
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: Yes, Mr.Chair. Since the July meeting in QuebecCity with the provincial and territorial ministers of agriculture, we've been working to improve the AgriStability program. This issue remains a priority, and it's included in my mandate letter. However, at this time, we're responding to emergencies that go beyond what the various risk management programs can provide to our producers.
Mr. Ben Lobb: You can appreciate, Minister, the issue we're dealing with here. The United States Department of Agriculture has allocated $19 billion to farmers, $16 billion of that in direct support. The program that was offered last week, $252 million, was a mere fraction of what the United States is getting. If the minister is telling farmers to bank on the existing business risk management program, it's not going to work. Countless numbers of pork farmers, just in my riding alone, have one thousand, two thousand, three thousand head of hogs ready to be shipped within the near future. They will lose $70 a head. AgriStability isn't going to cut it. We need an immediate program to help out these hard-working pork farmers.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: I fully understand my colleague's comments. That's why we announced specific programs for the meat sector: $77.5million for processors, $50million for beef producers and $50million for pork producers. We've also increased, improved and facilitated access to AgriStability. One pork producer tried the calculator and told me that he could quickly receive $11 per head of hog. Alberta's agriculture minister even publicly stated that some producers could obtain the desired amount of $20 per head using the AgriStability program.
Mr. Ben Lobb: Mr. Chair, you can see the problem right there with the math. The minister just said that one of her pork producers is going to get $11. They are losing $70. There's a $59-per-head gap, times likely several thousand head of hogs in their barns. Let's go to another trying issue with agriculture. It's the carbon tax. I know that the government has their position on the carbon tax, and I know that I'm not going to change it, but I want to give the members of Parliament across the way, the government, an idea of what a pork farmer might go through. A pork farmer sent me their bill for February 26 to March 24. Their natural gas bill was about $2,400. In there was close to $500 in federal carbon tax. Farmers manage their woodlots ethically. They have environmental farm plans. They have nutrient management plans. They get no credit for any of the carbon sequestration and ethical environmental management on their farm, yet every month they are asked to pay a carbon tax. It just doesn't seem fair. I want the minister's opinion on that.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: As you know, our pollution pricing policy is designed to build a clean economy. We've introduced exemptions for agriculture. On one hand, emissions from animal and vegetable production are not subject to carbon pricing, and on the other hand, farm fuels and other fuels delivered to off-farm points-of-sale are exempt. We've also provided partial reimbursements for propane and natural gas used in commercial greenhouses. We have already done a lot. We encourage producers to take advantage of the business risk management programs, and we are ready to do more. We've already shown that, and we will continue to do so.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): There is time for one short question and response. Go ahead, Mr. Lobb.
Mr. Ben Lobb: Mr. Chair, I know the Minister of Agriculture has toured my riding. She knows very well what the lay of the land is here. What about pork farmers? What about chicken farmers? What about hens? What about drying in the fall? All those farmers pay a carbon tax, and there is no program for them. They pay and they pay and they pay, and what makes it worse is that they are given no credit for the environmental work they do on their farms.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: It's true that our producers work incredibly hard to protect the environment and ensure the well-being of their animals. That's important, to be sure, but I'd like to put the impact of pollution pricing into perspective. To put these estimates into context, AAFC used data from agricultural tax data programs to show the impact on a per-farm basis as a percentage of total operating costs. The estimates ranged from $210 to $819 per farm and 0.05% to 0.42% of total farm operating expenses.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We now move on to Mr.Lehoux.
Mr. Richard Lehoux (Beauce, CPC): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Being from a rural area, myself, I can assure you that people who live in rural communities are resourceful and resilient. Instead of staying cooped up in their homes, they are doing their best to retool and save the companies they work for. One of the only options they have is to work from home. Unfortunately, though, they don't have access to the tools they need. Cellular and Internet networks are inadequate, even non-existent in some cases. I want to know, not whether the government is going to help these Canadians join the 21st century, but when. Can you give us any assurances and, above all, a timetable for a real plan?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I agree with the member. The situation is very serious. High-speed Internet is not a luxury; it's a necessity. That's why we launched the connect to innovate program. My fellow minister Ms. Monsef will be introducing the next strategy to improve the situation in all regions, especially rural areas. Finding a solution is absolutely imperative.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: I don't think the minister understood my question. In the 2019 budget, the government promised to connect all Canadians to the Internet by 2030. This is 2020. That's 10years away. People don't need reliable Internet service 10years down the road. The pandemic has made the need even more acute right now. When, then, will people have Internet access? I'm simply asking you for a date now.
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, under the last budget, we launched a $1.7-billion program to support broadband infrastructure. That's a lot of money for high-speed Internet. My fellow minister Ms.Monsef is in charge of the program. We also introduced the connect to innovate program, which has helped 900communities all over the country. We will keep working to make the lives of people who live in rural areas better, and we will find solutions to provide high-speed Internet access.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: Mr.Chair, you no doubt know that Beauce is the cradle of small and medium-sized businesses. On March27, the Prime Minister introduced the emergency wage subsidy to help businesses cope with the pandemic. Unfortunately, general partnerships were overlooked. Of the many constituents in my riding who have reached out to me on the subject, one, in particular, has contacted me three times since mid-April. I still don't have anything to tell him because the government is dragging its feet. We'd like to get a clear and specific answer. The same goes for sole proprietors, who were also overlooked. When is the government going to include these businesses in the current programs?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr.Chair, we announced in financial support for vulnerable small and medium-sized businesses that are not eligible for the measures already in place and that are struggling with cash flow issues. We've also invested $71million to support businesses and organizations by giving them access to capital in rural communities. As well, we've invested in programs for rural areas, and we will continue to make investments to help small and medium-sized businesses.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr.Lehoux, please keep it brief.
Mr. Richard Lehoux: All right, Mr.Chair. The Canadian Federation of Agriculture asked the federal government for an agriculture and agri-food emergency fund of $2.6billion to help maintain food security in Canada in response to COVID-19. Will the minister address the federation's request? Minister, I'd like you to give us a date.
Hon. Marie-Claude Bibeau: We already have a host of business risk management programs, through which, $1.6billion is available to producers annually. More support is actually available, even through those programs, since they meet the demand. We are prepared to do more, and we will. I urge producers to apply for the AgriStability program and to use the funds in their AgriInvest accounts. Some $2.3billion is available through that program.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to the honourable member for LangleyAldergrove, Mr. Van Popta.
Mr. Tako Van Popta (LangleyAldergrove, CPC): Mr. Chair, the government's wage subsidy program is designed to help traditional companies, not high-growth companies. For example, I was talking to Ron, who operates an engineering firm in my riding that specializes in designing and building very expensive machines for their ever-expanding overseas markets. Business is down, but not by the requisite 30%. Of course not, since they're in high-growth mode, but just recently they had to lay off some very talented staff. Can the minister confirm that the wage subsidy program can be expanded or adapted to deal with high-growth companies that will play such a key role in Canada's economic relaunch?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, my honourable colleague is absolutely correct. We, the government, take enormous pride in our small businesses, particularly the start-ups and the high-growth firms. They're going to be absolutely essential for our economic recovery, and we know that some of them are ineligible for the wage subsidy. That is why we introduced a $250-million program in the industrial research assistance program through the National Research Council, strictly targeting and focusing on those high-growth firms that were ineligible for the wage subsidy, so that they can provide the wage support to keep those highly skilled individuals in Canada.
Mr. Tako Van Popta: Mr. Chair, there is another category of businesses that are falling through the cracks and feel they are being left behind by the wage subsidy program. Those are recently merged companies. For example, there is a trucking company in my riding that is significantly bigger this year than it was last year as a result of some key acquisitions and mergers late last year. All of the legacy companies by themselves would qualify individually for the wage subsidy, but the merged company does not. Can the minister confirm that the wage subsidy program is sufficiently flexible to accommodate recently merged companies?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: Mr. Chair, again I want to thank my honourable colleague for his question. He is identifying unique pain points that exist within the overall economy with specific examples of companies that are not able to access some of the programming we have provided. I do want to highlight, when it comes to the wage subsidy, that we have made changes to the revenue thresholds to make more companies eligible. The specific example that the member opposite raises is something that is under consideration.
Mr. Tako Van Popta: Mr. Chair, the government's commercial rent assistance program discriminates against certain tenants based solely on whether their landlord has a mortgage on the subject building. I was talking to Leslie the other day. She manages a number of commercial office buildings in my riding. Some of these buildings have mortgages and some don't, and it all depends on what they were able to negotiate with their banker. Leslie is having a very hard time explaining to her tenants why some will qualify for the rental subsidy and some won't, depending on which building they are in. Can the government confirm that the nonsensical mortgage requirement in the rent subsidy program is gone?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, the approach that was taken on trying to assist small businesses with rent is very much based on the fact that this is a provincial jurisdiction, so we have used the mortgage system as a way to do it. It is, in fact, not nonsensical. That said, we are looking at this particular issue. It's something that is under consideration. We expect that we will find a way to ensure that those landlords who don't have mortgages can work with the CMHC to have the appropriate approach to be eligible for this program.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have about one minute left, Mr. Van Popta. Go ahead with a short question.
Mr. Tako Van Popta: Many people in my riding have reached out to me to say they are quite disturbed that their favourite hunting and sport shooting firearms are now on the banned list. Can the minister inform Canadians how many Canadian taxpayer dollars are going to go to the buyback program for legal gun owners and how far that money would go if it were to be diverted to something useful, such as more border controls to stop the illegal importation of firearms?
Hon. Bill Blair: Our first priority is the protection and safety of Canadians. We've seen an unacceptable rise in gun violence right across our community. All weapons are being regulated in our country. Some, such as handguns, represent such a significant risk that we strongly restrict them. Some weapons, quite frankly, are completely unsuitable for any sporting or hunting activity, such as weapons designed for soldiers to engage in combat with other soldiers. We have now prohibited those weapons. The saving of lives is worth an investment in public safety. I want to assure the member we will bring forward legislation that will facilitate an appropriate buyback program. I look forward to a discussion in this House with the member opposite on how that can be done to ensure public safety and to ensure that we do it in as effective a way as possible.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll now go to Mr. Manly.
Mr. Paul Manly: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to thank the government and ministers present for the rapid relief that they've provided to Canadians. I know the constituents in my riding really appreciate that. I'd like to thank them also for being responsive to the MPs who have brought forward gaps in the program. The CERB requirements recognize dividend income for eligibility for the Canada emergency business account, CEBA, but the Canada emergency business account does not recognize dividends or contract payments. I've been contacted by many small business owners who have been legally paying themselves with dividends for years, but these companies cannot apply for the CEBA even though this might save them from bankruptcy during this crisis. Will the government make the necessary changes to allow dividend income to be admissible for CEBA eligibility?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I'd like to thank the honourable colleague for his very thoughtful question and his advocacy in looking for different solutions and in working with us to help small businesses, not only in his riding but across the country as well. He's absolutely correct that the Canada emergency business account has been successful, as 590,000 loans have been issued. That's a reflection of some of the changes that we introduced, which made the criteria more generous so that more businesses could obtain assistance. He has raised the issue of dividends. As I said before, we continue to work with Canadians and Canadian businesses and colleagues in this House to see how we can assist more Canadians, not less of them, and we'll continue to endeavour to do that.
Mr. Paul Manly: Mr. Chair, there are still many Canadians stranded overseas who are trying to return to Canada. Some have no assurance that their non-Canadian spouse will be allowed into Canada with them. Many are being forced to make an impossible choice between sheltering in place overseas or separating from their spouse in order to return home. Will the government remove unnecessary barriers and allow these Canadians to return to Canada immediately with their spouses?
Hon. Bill Blair: Mr. Chair, in an effort to flatten the curve and to protect Canadians, we've taken a number of extraordinary measures at the border and we have restricted non-essential travel of people coming into Canada. While Canadian citizens and permanent residents will always be admissiblesubject, of course, to a 14-day quarantine upon entry foreign nationals are subject to travel restrictions. For individuals to be eligible to travel to Canada, their travel must be considered essential travel, consistent with the emergency order put in place. I recognize and very much respect the spirit of the member's question. We recognize these are difficult situations. It is not our desire to keep families apart. I want to assure that each situation will be decided on a case-by-case basis based on the information made available to border service officers. I welcome any inquiries he may have. If he reaches out to my office, we'll help in any way we can.
Mr. Paul Manly: Mr. Chair, the Alberta energy regulator has suspended a wide range of environmental monitoring requirements for oil sands companies during this pandemic. This includes environmental reporting. It includes wetland wildlife and bird monitoring, even though Canada is a signatory to the international migratory bird treaty. Water that escapes from storm ponds doesn't need to be tested. Air quality programs, including for first nations communities, have been reduced. Testing for leaks of methane, a powerful greenhouse gas, has been suspended. This is after the federal government has provided $750 million in funding for methane emission reductions. The federal government has also just committed $1.7 billion to clean up orphaned oil wells. That message, clearly, is about the negligence of the Alberta government. It is something corporations should be paying for. Will the federal government hold the Alberta government to account and withhold energy sector relief funding until these environmental regulations are reinstated?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his question and for his very collaborative approach with our government on a number of issues. I would like to thank him for this particular question and his particular reference to methane, because it gives me an opportunity to highlight some very important progress that the federal government made this week in working with the Province of Alberta. Just yesterday Alberta joined B.C. and Saskatchewan and published its own draft regulations on methane. This will allow us, in working with Alberta, to work on equivalency on methane, which will allow us to work towards standing down the federal system in those jurisdictions. This is tremendously important, because it will allow us to cut methane emissions by 45% by 2025. It's hugely important for fighting climate change together.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we'll go to the honourable member for Hamilton Mountain, Mr. Duvall.
Mr. Scott Duvall (Hamilton Mountain, NDP): Mr. Chair, I was pleased to hear about extending the tax deadline to October 1 in yesterday's announcement for seniors. After many discussions with the Minister of Seniors, I was glad to hear that she was listening to the NDP and many others on making this happen. It stops a lot of interruptions for people who couldn't get their taxes done. Mr. Chair, COVID-19 has been showing us in stark terms that Canadian seniors are struggling to make ends meet in Canada. Before enduring the crisis, it was clear that OAS and GIS benefits levels were just not enough for seniors to keep up with the cost of living, so we need to fix this now. Why is the government refusing to increase OAS and GIS benefits to lift seniors out of poverty on a permanent basis?
Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors): Mr. Chair, I want to thank my honourable colleague for giving me this opportunity to rise today and talk about how we are supporting Canadian seniors during this pandemic. Many Canadian seniors are facing significant health, economic and social challenges as a result of the pandemic. They built this country and now they need our help. Our government is taking significant action to provide Canadian seniors with greater financial security and give them the help they need during this crisis. We're building on past measures by introducing a one-time tax-free payment of $300 for those who receive OAS and of $200 for those receiving GIS, totalling $500 to seniors who receive both. We are also supporting community-based projects to improve the quality of life for seniors through the New Horizons for Seniors program, and investing in other charities. Seniors need our help, and we are delivering for them.
Mr. Scott Duvall: Mr. Chair, I was glad to hear that the Minister of Seniors is acknowledging the financial burden that our seniors are taking on. She mentioned the prescription dispensing fees, the added costs of their groceries and the delivery charges. I was glad that the Prime Minister acknowledged the heavy toll seniors are facing, and that they helped to shape this country and now they need our help. A surprising statement that I heard yesterday was the Treasury Board and the seniors minister's admission in their press briefing that the level of assistance being provided to Canadian seniors is quite low. Why is the seniors minister acknowledging all the burdens they're trying to help the seniors with, but the response they're giving is just a very low way of handling it?
Hon. Deb Schulte: I really do want to acknowledge my honourable colleague for his advocacy. I just want to assure him that while the government remains committed to implementing policies in our platform, we are focused on this health crisis right now. We have provided financial support to seniors sooner through the GST credit top-up, and now with additional payments to OAS and GIS recipients. This year we are investing over twice as much on financial assistance for seniors as we committed to in our platform, which is $3.8 billion compared to $1.56 billion in the platform. Seniors need our help and we're delivering. These payments have provided greater support for the most vulnerable seniors. Just to give some details, for those on OAS and GIS, they will get, in conjunction with the GST credit top-up, $875 per adult, and over $1,500 per couple. This is not an insignificant amount. This is a significant amount to support our seniors during this pandemic.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): You have about one minute left for both a question and a response. Go ahead, Mr. Duvall.
Mr. Scott Duvall: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The minister was talking about there being a maximum payment, if it's possible. What I've heard from seniors is this is a one-shot deal and it's an insult to them. They want some stability on an ongoing basis. We did make an agreement about two weeks ago that help would be implemented without delay on the seniors issue and for people with disabilities. Why did yesterday's announcement include only the people who are seniors, but not people with disabilities? Why have they been omitted? When can they expect help to come?
Hon. Deb Schulte: I just want to touch on the two points raised. On the one-time payment, we know that seniors need help now, and that's why it's important to get that money into seniors' accounts as soon as possible. That is why we're providing the one payment right away, instead of small amounts spread over months. In the coming weeks we will look at additional supports for other vulnerable Canadians. I just want to let him know we are working on additional measures.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go now
Mr. Scott Duvall: I didn't hear anything about the disability
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The five minutes are finished. It is now over to Mrs.Gill, the member for Manicouagan.
Mrs. Marilne Gill: Thank you, Mr.Chair. I'll be sharing my time with the member for Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLesBasques. I have just one question. It's for the government, and this will be the fourth time I've asked today. When I go back home, what am I going to tell the people of Chandler, Amqui, Bic, Saint-Simon, Tadoussac and Harrington Harbour? Am I going to tell them that the government supports the Bloc Qubcois's proposal? We propose giving seasonal workers access to employment insurance benefits until next season, regardless of whether they received the CERB, how many hours they worked or how many they accumulated. Should I instead tell them that the Liberal government has nothing in store for them as they suffer through the crisis? The government hasn't managed to bridge the employment insurance gap, and is even planning to bring it to six, if not eight, months. That means they'll have nothing to put on the dinner table for the next year. I'd like an answer, Mr.Chair.
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos: Mr.Chair, I have three things to say in response to the member's important question. First, we obviously understand what she's saying. The work is seasonal, not the workers. The work they do is fundamental so they can support their families and their communities in eastern Quebec and other regions. Second, the CERB delivers significant assistance to those often vulnerable workers, the majority of whom would be able or certainly eager to find another job. Third, and finally, before any longer-term investments are made, it's important to keep in mind that those who may have received employment insurance benefits but who lost them in recent weeks or who do seasonal work are eligible for the CERB. That said, we are also looking ahead. We've already announced some very important measuresand we'll continue to do soin support of tourism, culture, agriculture, fisheries, forestry and many other key contributors to regional development in Quebec and elsewhere.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The member for Rimouski-NeigetteTmiscouataLesBasques, Mr.Blanchette-Joncas, has the floor.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas: Mr.Chair, the situation my fellow member just described is of little comfort to those in Quebec's regions. To be frank, the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance program is a flop. According to the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, one in three businesses doesn't qualify for rent relief because it doesn't meet the 70% drop in revenues requirement. Half of businesses have indicated that their landlords won't be applying for the program because it's optional. Commercial landlords can choose to participate in the program or not. How is that going to help businesses, Mr.Chair? We are still trying to figure that out. Businesses, especially seasonal ones, need more support to cover their fixed costs. Will the government commit to reviewing the program, which is too restrictive for businesses and optional for landlords? The program must do more to help businesses, particularly seasonal ones, cover their fixed costs.
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr.Chair, we know that businesses are, of course, very concerned about fixed costs. Our rent relief program is very significant. We haven't yet announced all the details, so it's much too soon to say that it's flawed. More information will be available in the next few days. At that point, we hope to be on the right track when it comes to fixed costs and rent.
Mr. Maxime Blanchette-Joncas: I hope you're making adjustments. It's totally unacceptable that only 10% of businesses who need the relief can get it. What's more, the public health crisis has brought its share of change for businesses, particularly with the new health measures. They have to plan, implement preventative measures, have response plans, train staff and acquire the necessary equipment. In order to do those things, protect the public and reopen their doors, businesses have to assume the costs. Will the government commit to providing financial assistance to businesses, especially those in the tourism industry, so they can cover the costs of putting the new health measures in place?
Hon. Navdeep Bains: I know the situation is very serious in rural communities. That's why we've invested $71million in community futures development corporations, or CFDCs, and business development centres. Both of those will go a long way towards helping businesses in rural communities, and I have no doubt that we will continue working together to find other solutions.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Now we'll move on to the honourable member for Calgary Centre, Mr. McLean.
Mr. Greg McLean (Calgary Centre, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. One of the terms for accessing the Canada emergency commercial rent assistance, CECRA, is that you must have a mortgage on the property. One of the key terms of eligibility for this support is that the landlord owes money to a bank. Will the Minister of Finance tell us if this program was designed for the benefit of landlords and tenants or for the benefit of banks?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I appreciate the question from the member opposite. I think that it's important to know that commercial rent and landlord-tenant relationships are provincial jurisdictions. Therefore, as we embarked on an approach that could enable landlords and tenants to get to an agreement that would help both, we used the CMHC as a vehicle from which we could do that. We think that we've come up with a program that provides advantages for the landlords and advantages for the tenants, and we will be announcing details that will include how mortgages can be put in place for those landlords who don't currently have them.
Mr. Greg McLean: Brookfield Properties, a large Canadian firm, announced that its rent collections on commercial properties for April were 15% of the lease terms. Luckily, Brookfield has another company, Brookfield Business Partners, poised to help by buying up the distressed equity of the firms that owe them money. Did the Minister of Finance design CECRA with this outcome in mind, washing out individual investors and small companies and transferring that value into the hands of vulture financiers who hold all the cards?
Hon. Bill Morneau: In fact, Mr. Chair, we designed this program exactly with the idea in mind of the challenge that we're seeing. We're seeing that in many cases commercial tenants are not actually able to pay their rent, so landlords are not getting the rent that's due. Therefore, there's a mutual interest from tenants and from landlords in coming to an agreement. By providing funding through the mortgage system to those landlords, we recognize that we'll enable both of those two parts of the equation to come to an agreement that we think will be advantageous for the sector over the long term.
Mr. Greg McLean: In the past two months, the Bank of Canada has tripled the size of its balance sheet to almost $400 billion, with more to come, Mr. Chair. In the 2008 recession, the world's major economies endured quantitative easing on a previously unknown scale, most of which has not since been unwound. Canada endured a then-record $50-billion deficit, but we did not need to enter the uncertain world of QE, quantitative easing, as a result of the strength of Canada's oil and gas industry. Will the minister acknowledge that this government's oil and gas policy mismanagement has led to economic decline, necessitating hundreds of billions of dollars of quantitative easing?
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: Mr. Chair, let me challenge one assumption implicit in the honourable member's question, the assumption that our government fails to understand the importance of the oil and gas sector to our economy. Let me quote some leaders from Alberta and their response to the lease program. Tim McMillan, CEO of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, said, I think this is essential. Not all companies are going to need to tap into this sort of liquidity...but some that are normally high-quality, stable companies likely will be looking for this program to provide a certain amount of liquidity for them. CAPP understands that we are supporting Canadian companies, including in the oil and gas sector, and I would urge the members opposite to understand that as well.
Mr. Greg McLean: BlackRock is one of the world's largest investment companies, managing trillions of dollars of bonds. It has lobbied regulators around the world to not be named a systemically important financial institution. The Bank of Canada unexpectedly engaged BlackRock as an adviser on its bond-buying plans. Is the Minister of Finance mindful of the conflict of interest that exists between the world's largest bond manager, BlackRock, and the advice it's giving the Bank of Canada on buying bonds?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, the member opposite might know that the Bank of Canada is independent from the government, and as such we are not privy to those decisions and support the continuing independence of the Bank of Canada from the government.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr. McLean, you may have just a short question.
Mr. Greg McLean: The finance sector seems to be getting well served during this economic crisis. Will the minister endeavour to provide a more balanced program of benefits going forward for the sake of the entire Canadian economy, and not just the Brookfields, the BlackRocks and the big banks?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I think the notion that one sector is being advantaged versus another actually defies the facts. More than 550,000 loans have gone out to small businesses in the form of $40,000 loans per business over a very short time period. Canada is a leader in this regard, and we'll continue to support businesses all across Canada with loans and support as they need it to get ourselves through this difficult time.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We'll go to the last five-minute round. We'll begin with the honourable member for Carleton, Mr. Poilievre.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Thank you, Mr. Chair. What is the dollar value of the total assets of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, earlier today we were given incorrect information on the Auditor General. I would like to be able to provide more information at my next response.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the total dollar value of the assets of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, the member for Carleton said that the previous government spent more on the Auditor General than the current government, and that is actually incorrect.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the total dollar value of the assets of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, in fact, in the last full year of the Harper government, in 2014-15, the total spending on the Auditor General was $85.8 million.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the dollar value of the assets of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, in the most recent year, 2018-19, the total spend was $92.4 million for the Auditor General, showing a 7.7% increase.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What are the total liabilities of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I would just say it's shocking when people bring forward incorrect information to the House to try to make a point.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What are the total liabilities of the Government of Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we will continue to support Canadians through this time, with support not only for businesses but for individuals to get through and get a bridge to a better time.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is just the dollar value?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, that's a continuing commitment.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: I know we shouldn't ask the minister about numbers. He's just the finance minister, after all, but what is the equity on the Government of Canada's balance sheet?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I would advise the member for Carleton to memorize those Auditor General figures for his next foray into the House of Commons.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: The minister has claimed that our balance sheet is strong. There are three components to a balance sheet: the assets, the liabilities, and the equity. The minister doesn't know any of the three, so clearly he doesn't actually know anything about our balance sheet. That's reassuring. According to the Auditor General, the negative net worth of our Government of Canada will be as much as $1 trillion by the end of this fiscal year. Can the minister, if he is familiar with any of these numbers, tell us if it is possible that his government will hit $1 trillion of debt this year?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I want to assure Canadians that our approach will be to continue to make investments on their behalf. That is available to us because of our strong fiscal position, but we will continue to take that approach, which we think is the appropriate one.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Will it be $1 trillion, yes or no?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, as I said, we will continue to focus on the importance of supporting Canadians.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the size of our current national debt?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I think what will happen as we do that is that we will allow ourselves to have a stronger economy at the end because of these investments.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the size of the national debt?
Hon. Bill Morneau: We have always seen, Mr. Chair, that these investments are not only supporting Canadians; they are supporting businesses so that we do have a strong economy and a strong fiscal position coming out of this.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Does the finance minister know the size of our national debt?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I will continue to focus our efforts, as we believe we should, on supporting Canadians through this time.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Does the finance minister know what $1 trillion is?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we are continuing to make investments that we believe are prudent in the face of this economic challenge, supporting Canadians as we know we need to.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the total dollar value of all the public and private debt in Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, we know that by supporting Canadians, by continuing to make investments, we will enable Canadiens to have less debt themselves because that
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Mr. Poilievre.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: What is the total debt, public and private, as a share of GDP in Canada?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, the important consideration here is that the federal government is taking a position that we should support Canadians so that they don't take on the debt themselves.
Hon. Pierre Poilievre: Yet they have. They have record household debt, record corporate debt and growing government debt. The finance minister doesn't seem to know any of the basic numbers that would be required to govern the finances of the Government of Canada, so I will give him one last chance. Based on his latest briefings, what is the total size of Canada's national debt? If he doesn't know, can he have the humility and honesty just to say so?
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr. Chair, I want to thank the member for slightly more time in this response to say that we think the best thing to do during this time period is to invest in Canadians. We know that in that way they will not be supporting as much debt themselves. The government is in a fiscal position that enables us to take on debt at this time, which we think is appropriate to get our economy to a better position at the end of this crisis. We think that's appropriate. We will continue to take that approach. Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon. government House leader is rising on a point of order.
Hon. Pablo Rodriguez: I have a point of order, Mr.Chair. I think we need to keep the interpreters in mind and the work they are doing, particularly when it comes to the flow and speed of questions. As the interpreters have already mentioned, they've suffered more injuries during this short time than during all of last year. Mr.Chair, I kindly ask that you make sure members take that into account. Thank you.
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): I'm not sure whether that constitutes a point of order, but it's certainly an important reminder for members of the House to respect interpreters' working conditions. Please note that this is the end of our questions to ministers for this afternoon. Honourable members, please note too that pursuant to an order made on April 20, the House has been recalled. As such, the committee will now adjourn and the House sitting will begin shortly thereafter. The bells will be rung to call in members, and a parade will begin the sitting. This committee is now adjourned.
Query:
What did the Prime Minister say about students?
Answer:
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The Prime Minister clarified that while young people are in need of funds, especially due to loss of income over the summer, they are also in need of work experience. The government would start providing the Canada emergency student benefit which will assist in this by making both jobs and money available.
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... [The rest of the transcript is omitted]
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Professor A: Am I on ? I guess so . Radio two . Hmm . Radio two .
Grad E: Hello ?
Professor A: Wow .
Grad E: Mm - hmm . Hi ?
PhD B: Blow into it , it works really well .
Grad F: Channel B .
Professor A: People say the strangest things when their microphones are on .
PhD D: Channel four . Test .
PhD C: Uh - oh .
PhD D: OK .
PhD C: Radio four .
Grad E: Hello ?
Professor A: So everybody everybody 's on ?
PhD D: Today 's
Professor A: Yeah . So y you guys had a {disfmarker} a meeting with uh {disfmarker} with Hynek which I unfortunately had to miss . Um and uh somebody
PhD C: Mmm .
Professor A: eh e and uh I guess Chuck you weren't there either , so the uh
PhD B: I was there .
Professor A: Oh you were there ?
PhD B: With Hynek ?
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: So everybody knows what happened except me . OK . {vocalsound} Maybe somebody should tell me .
PhD C: Oh yeah . Alright . Well . Uh first we discussed about some of the points that I was addressing in the mail I sent last week .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD C: So . Yeah . About the um , well {disfmarker} the downsampling problem .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: Uh and about the f the length of the filters and {disfmarker} Yeah .
Professor A: What was the {disfmarker} w what was the downsampling problem again ?
PhD C: So we had {disfmarker}
Professor A: I forget .
PhD C: So the fact that there {disfmarker} there is no uh low - pass filtering before the downsampling . Well .
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD C: There is because there is LDA filtering but that 's perhaps not uh the best w m
Professor A: Depends what it 's frequency characteristic is , yeah .
PhD C: Well . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: So you could do a {disfmarker} you could do a stricter one .
PhD D: System on
Professor A: Maybe . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah . So we discussed about this , about the um {disfmarker}
Professor A: Was there any conclusion about that ?
PhD C: Uh " try it " . Yeah .
Professor A: I see .
PhD C: I guess .
Professor A: Yeah . So again this is th this is the downsampling {vocalsound} uh of the uh {disfmarker} the feature vector stream
PhD C: Uh .
Professor A: and um Yeah I guess the {disfmarker} the uh LDA filters they were doing do have um {vocalsound} uh let 's see , so the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the feature vectors are calculated every ten milliseconds so uh the question is how far down they are at fifty {disfmarker} fifty hertz . Uh . {vocalsound} Um .
PhD C: Yeah . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Sorry at twenty - five hertz since they 're downsampling by two . So . Does anybody know what the frequency characteristic is ?
PhD C: We don't have yet
Professor A: Oh OK .
PhD C: um {vocalsound} So , yeah .
Professor A: OK .
PhD C: We should have a look first at , perhaps , {vocalsound} the modulation spectrum .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: Um . So there is this , there is the um length of the filters . Um . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So the i this idea of trying to find filters with shorter delays . Um . We started to work with this .
Professor A: Hmm - hmm .
PhD C: Mmm . And the third point um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} was the um , yeah , {vocalsound} the on - line normalization where , well , the recursion f recursion for the mean estimation {vocalsound} is a filter with some kind of delay
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: and that 's not taken into account right now . Um . Yeah . And there again , yeah . For this , the conclusion of Hynek was , well , " we can try it but {disfmarker} "
Professor A: Uh - huh .
PhD C: Um .
Professor A: Try {disfmarker} try what ?
PhD C: So try to um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} um take into account the delay of the recursion for the mean estimation .
Professor A: OK .
PhD C: Mmm . And this {disfmarker} we 've not uh worked on this yet . Um , yeah . And so while discussing about these {disfmarker} these LDA filters , some i issues appeared , like well , the fact that if we look at the frequency response of these filters it 's uh , well , we don't know really what 's the important part in the frequency response and there is the fact that {vocalsound} in the very low frequency , these filters don't {disfmarker} don't really remove a lot . {vocalsound} compared to the {disfmarker} to the uh standard RASTA filter . Uh and that 's probably a reason why , yeah , on - line normalization helps because it {disfmarker} it ,
Professor A: Right .
PhD C: yeah , it removed this mean . Um . Yeah , but perhaps everything could {disfmarker} should be {disfmarker} could be in the filter , I mean , uh the {disfmarker} the mean normalization and {disfmarker} Yeah . So . Yeah . So basically that was {disfmarker} that 's {vocalsound} all we discussed about . We discussed about {vocalsound} good things to do also uh well , generally good stuff {vocalsound} to do for the research .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And this was this LDA uh tuning perhaps and {vocalsound} Hynek proposed again to his uh TRAPS , so .
Professor A: OK .
PhD C: Yeah ,
Professor A: I mean I g I guess the key thing for me is {disfmarker} is figuring out how to better coordinate between the two sides
PhD C: um .
Professor A: cuz {disfmarker} because um
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: uh I was talking with Hynek about it later and the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} sort of had the sense sort of that {disfmarker} that neither group of people wanted to {disfmarker} to bother the other group too much . And {disfmarker} and I don't think anybody is , you know , closed in in their thinking or are unwilling to talk about things but I think that {vocalsound} you were sort of waiting for them to {vocalsound} tell you that they had something for you and {disfmarker} and that {disfmarker} and expected that they would do certain things and they were sor they didn't wanna bother you
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: and {vocalsound} they were sort of waiting for you and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and uh we ended up with this thing where they {disfmarker} they were filling up all of the possible latency themselves , and they just had hadn't thought of that . So . Uh . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I mean it 's true that maybe {disfmarker} maybe no one really thought about that {disfmarker} that this latency thing would be such a {disfmarker} a strict issue
PhD C: Yeah . Well , but . Yeah . Yeah . Well {disfmarker}
Professor A: in {disfmarker} in uh {disfmarker} the other {disfmarker}
PhD C: Yeah I don't know what happened really , but
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: I guess it 's {disfmarker} it 's also so uh the time constraints . Because , {vocalsound} well , we discussed about that {disfmarker} about this problem and they told us " well , we will do all that 's possible to have enough space for a network " but then , yeah , perhaps they were too short with the time and
Professor A: Then they couldn't . I see .
PhD C: uh yeah . But there was also problem {disfmarker} perhaps a problem of communication . So , yeah . Now we will try to {disfmarker}
Professor A: Just talk more .
PhD C: Yeah , slikes and send mails .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: u s o o Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: Uh . OK .
Professor A: So there 's um {disfmarker} Alright . Well maybe we should just uh I mean you 're {disfmarker} you 're bus other than that you folks are busy doing all the {disfmarker} all the things that you 're trying that we talked about before right ? And this {disfmarker} machines are busy and {vocalsound} you 're busy
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: and
PhD C: Basically .
Professor A: Yeah . OK . Oh .
PhD C: Um .
Professor A: Let 's {disfmarker} let 's , I mean , I think that as {disfmarker} as we said before that one of the things that we 're imagining is that uh there {disfmarker} there will be {vocalsound} uh in the system we end up with there 'll be something to explicitly uh uh do something about noise
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: in addition to the uh other things that we 're talking about and that 's probably the best thing to do . And there was that one email that said that {vocalsound} it sounded like uh uh things looked very promising up there in terms of uh I think they were using Ericsson 's {vocalsound} approach or something and {vocalsound} in addition to {disfmarker} They 're doing some noise removal thing , right ?
PhD C: Yeah , yeah . So yeah we 're {disfmarker} will start to do this also .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD C: Uh so Carmen is just looking at the Ericsson {disfmarker} Ericsson code .
PhD D: Yeah . We modif
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD C: And
PhD D: Yeah , I modified it {disfmarker} well , modifying {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I studied Barry 's sim code , more or less . to take @ @ the first step the spectral subtraction . and we have some {disfmarker} the feature for Italian database and we will try with this feature with the filter to find the result .
Professor A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD D: But we haven't result until this moment .
Professor A: Yeah , sure .
PhD D: But well , we are working in this also
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD D: and maybe try another type of spectral subtraction , I don't {disfmarker}
Professor A: When you say you don't have a result yet you mean it 's {disfmarker} it 's just that it 's in process or that you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it finished and it didn't get a good result ?
PhD D: No . No , no n we have n we have do the experiment only have the feature {disfmarker} the feature but the experiment have
PhD C: Yeah .
PhD D: we have not make the experiment
Professor A: Oh . OK .
PhD D: and maybe will be good result or bad result , we don't know .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah .
PhD C: Yeah .
Professor A: OK . So um I suggest actually now we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we sorta move on and {disfmarker} and hear what 's {disfmarker} what 's {disfmarker} what 's happening in {disfmarker} in other areas like {vocalsound} what 's {disfmarker} what 's happening with your {vocalsound} investigations {vocalsound} about echos and so on .
Grad F: Oh um Well um I haven't started writing the test yet , I 'm meeting with Adam today
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: um and he 's going t show me the scripts he has for um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} running recognition on mee Meeting Recorder digits .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
Grad F: Uh {vocalsound} I also um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} haven't got the code yet , I haven't asked Hynek for {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} for his code yet . Cuz I looked at uh Avendano 's thesis and {vocalsound} I don't really understand what he 's doing yet but it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it {disfmarker} it sounded like um {vocalsound} the channel normalization part {vocalsound} um of his thesis um {vocalsound} was done in a {disfmarker} a bit of I don't know what the word is , a {disfmarker} a bit of a rough way um {vocalsound} it sounded like he um he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it wasn't really fleshed out and maybe he did something that was {vocalsound} interesting for the test situation but I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure if it 's {vocalsound} what I 'd wanna use so I have to {disfmarker} I have to read it more , I don't really understand what he 's doing yet .
Professor A: OK . Yeah I haven't read it in a while so I 'm not gonna be too much help unless I read it again ,
PhD D: It 's my
PhD C: Oh yeah ?
PhD D: I know this is mine here .
Professor A: so . OK . Um . {vocalsound} The um {disfmarker} so you , and then {vocalsound} you 're also gonna be doing this echo cancelling between the {disfmarker} the close mounted and the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} what we 're calling a cheating experiment uh of sorts between the distant {disfmarker}
Grad F: Uh I I 'm ho Right . Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} or I 'm hoping {disfmarker} I 'm hoping Espen will do it .
Professor A: Ah ! OK .
Grad F: Um
Professor A: F um
Grad F: u
Professor A: Delegate . That 's good . It 's good to delegate .
Grad F: I {disfmarker} I think he 's at least planning to do it for the cl close - mike cross - talk and so maybe I can just take whatever setup he has and use it .
Professor A: Great . Great . Yeah actually um he should uh I wonder who else is I think maybe it 's Dan Ellis is going to be doing uh a different cancellation . Um . {vocalsound} One of the things that people working in the meeting task wanna get at is they would like to have cleaner {vocalsound} close - miked recordings . So uh this is especially true for the lapel but even for the close {disfmarker} close - miked uh cases um we 'd like to be able to have {vocalsound} um other sounds from other people and so forth removed from {disfmarker} So when someone isn't speaking you 'd like the part where they 're not speaking to actually be {disfmarker} So {vocalsound} what they 're talking about doing is using ec uh echo cancellation - like techniques . It 's not really echo but {vocalsound} uh just um uh taking the input from other mikes and using uh {vocalsound} uh a uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} an adaptive filtering approach to remove the effect of that uh other speech . So . Um what was it , there was {disfmarker} there was some {disfmarker} some {disfmarker} some point where {vocalsound} eh uh Eric or somebody was {disfmarker} was speaking and he had lots of {vocalsound} silence in his channel and I was saying something to somebody else uh {vocalsound} which was in the background and it was not {disfmarker} it was recognizing my words , which were the background speech {vocalsound} on the close {disfmarker} {vocalsound} close mike .
Grad F: Hmm .
PhD B: Oh the {disfmarker} What we talked about yesterday ?
Professor A: Yes .
PhD B: Yeah that was actually my {disfmarker} I was wearing the {disfmarker} I was wearing the lapel and you were sitting next to me ,
Professor A: Oh you {disfmarker} it was you I was Yeah .
PhD B: and I only said one thing but you were talking and it was picking up all your words .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah . So they would like clean channels . Uh and for that {disfmarker} mmm uh {disfmarker} that purpose uh they 'd like to pull it out . So I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think Dan Ellis or somebody who was working with him was going to uh work on that . So . OK . Right ? Um . {vocalsound} And uh I don't know if we 've talked lately about the {disfmarker} the plans you 're developing that we talked about this morning uh I don't remember if we talked about that last week or not , but {vocalsound} maybe just a quick reprise of {disfmarker} of what we were saying this morning .
Grad E: OK .
Professor A: Uh .
Grad E: Um . {comment} So continuing to um extend
PhD B: What about the stuff that um Mirjam has been doing ? And {disfmarker} and S Shawn , yeah . Oh . So they 're training up nets to try to recognize these acoustic features ? I see .
Professor A: But that 's uh uh all {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} is a {disfmarker} a certainly relevant {comment} {vocalsound} uh study and , you know , what are the features that they 're finding . We have this problem with the overloading of the term " feature " so
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: uh {vocalsound} what are the variables , what we 're calling this one , what are the variables that they 're found {disfmarker} finding useful
PhD C: Hmm .
Professor A: um for {disfmarker}
PhD B: And their {disfmarker} their targets are based on canonical mappings of phones to acoustic f features .
Professor A: Right . And that 's certainly one thing to do and we 're gonna try and do something more f more fine than that but uh um so um So I guess you know what , I was trying to remember some of the things we were saying , do you ha still have that {disfmarker} ? Yeah .
Grad E: Oh yeah .
Professor A: There 's those {vocalsound} {pause} that uh yeah , some of {disfmarker} some of the issues we were talking about was in j just getting a good handle on {disfmarker} on uh {vocalsound} what " good features " are and {disfmarker}
PhD B: What does {disfmarker} what did um Larry Saul use for {disfmarker} it was the sonorant uh detector , right ? How did he {disfmarker} H how did he do that ? Wh - what was his detector ? Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Oh , OK . Mm - hmm . So how did he combine all these features ? What {disfmarker} what r mmm classifier did he Hmm . Oh right . You were talking about that , yeah . I see .
Professor A: And the other thing you were talking about is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is where we get the targets from . So I mean , there 's these issues of what are the {disfmarker} what are the variables that you use and do you combine them using the soft " AND - OR " or you do something , you know , more complicated um and then the other thing was so where do you get the targets from ? The initial thing is just the obvious that we 're discussing is starting up with phone labels {vocalsound} from somewhere and then uh doing the transformation . But then the other thing is to do something better and eh w why don't you tell us again about this {disfmarker} this database ? This is the {disfmarker}
PhD B: Hmm !
Professor A: And then tell them to talk naturally ? Yeah , yeah .
PhD B: Pierced tongues and Yeah . You could just mount it to that and they wouldn't even notice . Weld it . Zzz .
Professor A: Maybe you could go to these parlors and {disfmarker} and you could , you know {disfmarker} you know have {disfmarker} have , you know , reduced rates if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you can do the measurements .
PhD B: Yeah . I That 's right . You could {disfmarker} what you could do is you could sell little rings and stuff with embedded you know , transmitters in them and things
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah , be cool and help science .
PhD B: and Yeah .
Professor A: OK .
PhD B: Hmm ! There 's a bunch of data that l around , that {disfmarker} people have done studies like that w way way back right ? I mean {vocalsound} I can't remember where {disfmarker} uh Wisconsin or someplace that used to have a big database of {disfmarker} Yeah . I remember there was this guy at A T - andT , Randolph ? or r What was his name ? Do you remember that guy ? Um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} researcher at A T - andT a while back that was studying , trying to do speech recognition from these kinds of features . I can't remember what his name was . Dang . Now I 'll think of it . That 's interesting .
Professor A: Do you mean eh {disfmarker} but you {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} Mar
PhD C: Well he was the guy {disfmarker} the guy that was using {disfmarker}
Professor A: you mean when was {disfmarker} was Mark Randolph there , or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: Mark Randolph .
Professor A: Yeah he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} he 's at Motorola now .
PhD B: Oh is he ?
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: Oh OK .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: Yeah .
PhD C: Is it the guy that was using the pattern of pressure on the tongue or {disfmarker} ?
PhD B: I can't remember exactly what he was using , now . But I know {disfmarker} I just remember it had to do with you know {vocalsound} uh positional parameters
PhD C: What {disfmarker} Yeah .
PhD B: and trying to m you know do speech recognition based on them .
PhD C: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Yeah . So the only {disfmarker} the only uh hesitation I had about it since , I mean I haven't see the data is it sounds like it 's {disfmarker} it 's {vocalsound} continuous variables and a bunch of them . And so
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor A: I don't know how complicated it is to go from there {disfmarker} What you really want are these binary {pause} labels , and just a few of them . And maybe there 's a trivial mapping if you wanna do it and it 's e but it {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I worry a little bit that this is a research project in itself , whereas um {vocalsound} if you did something instead that {disfmarker} like um having some manual annotation by {vocalsound} uh you know , linguistics students , this would {disfmarker} there 'd be a limited s set of things that you could do a as per our discussions with {disfmarker} with John before
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: but the things that you could do , like nasality and voicing and a couple other things you probably could do reasonably well .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And then there would {disfmarker} it would really be uh this uh uh binary variable . Course then , that 's the other question is do you want binary variables . So . I mean the other thing you could do is {vocalsound} boot trying to {disfmarker} to uh get those binary variables and take the continuous variables from {vocalsound} uh the uh {vocalsound} uh the data itself there , but I {disfmarker} I 'm not sure {disfmarker}
PhD B: Could you cluster the {disfmarker} just do some kind of clustering ?
Professor A: Guess you could , yeah .
PhD B: Bin them up into different categories and {disfmarker}
Professor A: Yeah . So anyway that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh {disfmarker} that 's another whole direction that cou could be looked at . Um . {vocalsound} Um . {vocalsound} I mean in general it 's gonna be {disfmarker} for new data that you look at , it 's gonna be hidden variable because we 're not gonna get everybody sitting in these meetings to {vocalsound} wear the pellets and {disfmarker} Um . So .
Grad E: Right . Right .
PhD B: So you 're talking about using that data to get uh instead of using canonical mappings of phones .
Grad E: Right .
PhD B: So you 'd use that data to give you sort of what the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the true mappings are for each phone ?
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: I see .
Grad E: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Yeah . So wh yeah , where this fits into the rest in {disfmarker} in my mind , I guess , is that um {vocalsound} we 're looking at different ways that we can combine {vocalsound} uh different kinds of {disfmarker} of rep front - end representations {vocalsound} um in order to get robustness under difficult or even , you know , typical conditions . And part of it , this robustness , seems to come from {vocalsound} uh multi - stream or multi - band sorts of things and Saul seems to have {vocalsound} a reasonable way of looking at it , at least for one {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} one um articulatory feature . The question is is can we learn from that {vocalsound} to change some of the other methods we have , since {disfmarker} I mean , one of the things that 's nice about what he had I thought was that {disfmarker} that it {disfmarker} it um {disfmarker} the decision about how strongly to train the different pieces is based on uh a {disfmarker} a reasonable criterion with hidden variables rather than {vocalsound} um just assuming {vocalsound} that you should train e e every detector uh with equal strength {vocalsound} towards uh it being this phone or that phone . Right ? So it {disfmarker} so um {vocalsound} he 's got these um uh uh
PhD B: Hmm .
Professor A: he " AND 's " between these different {vocalsound} features . It 's a soft " AND " , I guess but in {disfmarker} in principle {vocalsound} you {disfmarker} you wanna get a strong concurrence of all the different things that indicate something and then he " OR 's " across the different {disfmarker} soft " OR 's " across the different uh {vocalsound} multi - band channels . And um {vocalsound} the weight yeah , the target for the training of the " AND " {disfmarker} " AND ' ed " things {vocalsound} is something that 's kept {vocalsound} uh as a hidden variable , and is learned with EM . Whereas what we were doing is {disfmarker} is uh {vocalsound} taking {vocalsound} the phone target and then just back propagating from that
PhD B: So he doesn't have {disfmarker}
Professor A: which means that it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it 's uh i It could be for instance {vocalsound} that for a particular point in the data {vocalsound} you don't want to um uh train a particular band {disfmarker} train the detectors for a particular band . You {disfmarker} you wanna ignore {vocalsound} that band , cuz that 's a {disfmarker} Ban - band is a noisy {disfmarker} noisy measure .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And we don't {disfmarker} We 're {disfmarker} we 're still gonna try to train it up . In our scheme we 're gonna try to train it up to do as well {disfmarker} well as it can at predicting . Uh . Maybe that 's not the right thing to do .
PhD B: So he doesn't have to have truth marks or {disfmarker} Ho
Grad E: F right , and uh he doesn't have to have hard labels .
Professor A: Well at the {disfmarker} at the tail end , yeah , he has to know what 's {disfmarker} where it 's sonorant . But he 's {disfmarker} but what he 's - but what he 's not training up {disfmarker} uh what he doesn't depend on as truth is
Grad E: Right . For the full band .
Professor A: um I guess one way of describing would be if {disfmarker} if a sound is sonorant is it sonorant in this band ? Is it sonorant in that band ?
Grad E: Right .
Professor A: Is it sonorant in that band ? i It 's hard to even answer that what you really mean is that the whole sound is sonorant . So
PhD B: Mm - hmm . OK .
Professor A: then it comes down to , you know , to what extent should you make use of information from particular band {vocalsound} towards making your decision . And um {vocalsound} uh we 're making in a sense sort of this hard decision that you should {disfmarker} you should use everything {vocalsound} uh with {disfmarker} with uh equal strength .
PhD B: I see .
Professor A: And uh because in the ideal case we would be going for posterior probabilities , if we had {vocalsound} uh enough data to really get posterior probabilities and if the {disfmarker} if we also had enough data so that it was representative of the test data then we would in fact be doing the right thing to train everything as hard as we can . But um this is something that 's more built up along an idea of robustness from {disfmarker} from the beginning and so you don't necessarily want to train everything up towards the {disfmarker}
PhD B: So where did he get his {disfmarker} uh his tar his uh high - level targets about what 's sonorant and what 's not ?
Grad E: From uh canonical mappings {comment} um at first
PhD B: OK .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad E: and then it 's unclear um eh
PhD B: Using TIMIT ? or using {disfmarker}
Grad E: using TIMIT
PhD B: Uh - huh .
Grad E: right , right .
Professor A: Yeah .
Grad E: And then uh he does some fine tuning um for um special cases . Yeah .
Professor A: Yeah . I mean we ha we have a kind of {vocalsound} iterative training because we do this embedded Viterbi , uh so there is some something that 's suggested , based on the data but it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} I think it s doesn't seem like it 's quite the same , cuz of this {disfmarker} cuz then whatever {vocalsound} that alignment is , it 's that for all {disfmarker} all bands .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Well no , that 's not quite right , we did actually do them separate {disfmarker} tried to do them separately so that would be a little more like what he did . Um . But it 's still {vocalsound} not quite the same because then it 's {disfmarker} it 's um setting targets based on where you would say {vocalsound} the sound begins in a particular band . Where he 's s this is not a labeling per se . Might be closer I guess if we did a {vocalsound} soft {disfmarker} soft target uh {vocalsound} uh embedded {vocalsound} neural net training like we 've done a few times uh {vocalsound} f the forward um {disfmarker} do the forward calculations to get the gammas and train on those . Mmm . Uh what 's next ?
PhD B: I could say a little bit about w stuff I 've been playing with .
Professor A: Oh . You 're playing ?
PhD B: I um Huh ?
Professor A: You 're playing ?
PhD B: Yes , I 'm playing . Um {vocalsound} so I wanted to do this experiment to see um {vocalsound} uh what happens if we try to uh improve the performance of the back - end recognizer for the Aurora task and see how that affects things . And so I had this um {disfmarker} I think I sent around last week a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this plan I had for an experiment , this matrix where {vocalsound} I would take the um {disfmarker} the original um the original system . So there 's the original system trained on the mel cepstral features and then com and then uh optimize the b HTK system and run that again . So look at the difference there and then uh do the same thing for {vocalsound} the ICSI - OGI front - end .
Professor A: What {disfmarker} which test set was this ?
PhD B: This is {disfmarker} that I looked at ?
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: Uh I 'm looking at the Italian right now .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So as far as I 've gotten is I 've uh {vocalsound} been able to go through from beginning to end the um full HTK {vocalsound} system for the Italian data and got the same results that um {disfmarker} that uh {vocalsound} Stephane had . So um I started looking {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} and now I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sort of lookin at the point where I wanna know what should I change in the HTK back - end in order to try to {disfmarker} uh to improve it . So . One of the first things I thought of was the fact that they use {vocalsound} the same number of states for all of the models
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and so I went on - line and I uh found a pronunciation dictionary for Italian digits
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and just looked at , you know , the number of phones in each one of the digits . Um you know , sort of the canonical way of setting up a {disfmarker} an HMM system is that you use {vocalsound} um three states per phone and um {vocalsound} so then the {disfmarker} the total number of states for a word would just be , you know , the number of phones times three . And so when I did that for the Italian digits , I got a number of states , ranging on the low end from nine to the high end , eighteen . Um . {vocalsound} Now you have to really add two to that because in HTK there 's an initial null and a final null so when they use {vocalsound} uh models that have eighteen states , there 're really sixteen states . They 've got those initial and final null states . And so um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} their guess of eighteen states seems to be pretty well matched to the two longest words of the Italian digits , the four and five {vocalsound} which um , according to my , you know , sort of off the cuff calculation , should have eighteen states each .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And so they had sixteen . So that 's pretty close . Um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} but for the {disfmarker} most of the words are sh much shorter . So the majority of them wanna have nine states . And so theirs are s sort of twice as long . So {vocalsound} my guess {disfmarker} uh And then if you {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I printed out a confusion matrix um {vocalsound} uh for the well - matched case , and it turns out that the longest words are actually the ones that do the best . So my guess about what 's happening is that {vocalsound} you know , if you assume a fixed {disfmarker} the same amount of training data for each of these digits and a fixed length model for all of them but the actual words for some of them are half as long you really um have , you know , half as much training data for those models . Because if you have a long word and you 're training it to eighteen states , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh you 've got {disfmarker} you know , you 've got the same number of Gaussians , you 've gotta train in each case ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: but for the shorter words , you know , the total number of frames is actually half as many .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So {vocalsound} it could be that , you know , for the short words there 's {disfmarker} because you have so many states , you just don't have enough data to train all those Gaussians . So um I 'm going to try to um create more word - specific {vocalsound} um uh prototype H M Ms to start training from .
Professor A: Yeah , I mean , it 's not at all uncommon you do worse on long word on short words than long words anyway just because you 're accumulating more evidence for the {disfmarker} for the longer word ,
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: but .
PhD B: Yeah so I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll , the next experiment I 'm gonna try is to just um you know create {vocalsound} uh models that seem to be more w matched to my guess about how long they should be .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: And as part of that um I wanted to see sort of how the um {disfmarker} how these models were coming out , you know , what w {vocalsound} when we train up uh th you know , the model for " one " , which wants to have nine states , you know , what is the {disfmarker} uh what do the transition probabilities look like {disfmarker} in the self - loops , {comment} look like in {disfmarker} in those models ? And so I talked to Andreas and he explained to me how you can {vocalsound} calculate the expected duration of an HMM just by looking at the transition matrix
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: and so I wrote a little Matlab script that calculates that and so I 'm gonna sort of print those out for each of the words to see what 's happening , you know , how these models are training up ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
PhD B: you know , the long ones versus the short ones . I d I did {disfmarker} quickly , I did the silence model and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and um that 's coming out with about one point two seconds as its average duration and the silence model 's the one that 's used at the beginning and the end of each of the {vocalsound} string of digits .
Professor A: Wow . Lots of silence .
PhD B: Yeah , yeah . And so the S P model , which is what they put in between digits , I {disfmarker} I haven't calculated that for that one yet , but um . So they basically {disfmarker} their {disfmarker} {vocalsound} their model for a whole digit string is silence {vocalsound} digit , SP , digit , SP blah - blah - blah and then silence at the end . And so .
Professor A: Are the SP 's optional ? I mean skip them ?
PhD B: I have to look at that , but I 'm not sure that they are . Now the one thing about the S P model is really it only has a single s emitting state to it .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So if it 's not optional , you know , it 's {disfmarker} it 's not gonna hurt a whole lot
Professor A: I see .
PhD B: and it 's tied to the center state of the silence model so it 's not its own {disfmarker} um It doesn't require its own training data ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: it just shares that state .
Professor A: Mm - hmm .
PhD B: So it , I mean , it 's pretty good the way that they have it set up , but um i So I wanna play with that a little bit more . I 'm curious about looking at , you know {vocalsound} how these models have trained and looking at the expected durations of the models and I wanna compare that in the {disfmarker} the well - matched case f to the unmatched case , and see if you can get an idea of {disfmarker} just from looking at the {vocalsound} durations of these models , you know , what what 's happening .
Professor A: Yeah , I mean , I think that uh , as much as you can , it 's good to d sort of not do anything really tricky .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Not do anything that 's really finely tuned , but just sort of eh you know you t you i z
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: The premise is kind of you have a {disfmarker} a good person look at this for a few weeks and what do you come up with ?
PhD B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .
Professor A: And uh
PhD B: And Hynek , when I wa told him about this , he had an interesting point , and that was th um {vocalsound} the {disfmarker} the final models that they end up training up have I think probably something on the order of six Gaussians per state . So they 're fairly , you know , hefty models . And Hynek was saying that well , probably in a real application , {vocalsound} you wouldn't have enough compute to handle models that are very big or complicated . So in fact what we may want are simpler models .
Professor A: Could be .
PhD B: And compare how they perform to that . But {vocalsound} you know , it depends on what the actual application is and it 's really hard to know what your limits are in terms of how many Gaussians you can have .
Professor A: Right . And that , I mean , at the moment that 's not the limitation , so .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: I mean , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} what I thought you were gonna say i but which I was thinking was um where did six come from ? Probably came from the same place eighteen came from . You know , so .
PhD B: Yeah . Right .
Professor A: Uh {vocalsound} that 's another parameter , right ? that {disfmarker} that maybe , you know , uh {disfmarker} you really want three or nine or {disfmarker}
PhD B: Yeah , yeah . Well one thing {disfmarker} I mean , if I {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if I start um reducing the number of states for some of these shorter models {vocalsound} that 's gonna reduce the total number of Gaussians .
Professor A: Right .
PhD B: So in a sense it 'll be a simpler system .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah . But I think right now again the idea is doing just very simple things
PhD B: Yeah .
Professor A: how much better can you make it ? And um since they 're only simple things there 's nothing that you 're gonna do that is going to blow up the amount of computation
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: um so
PhD B: Right . Right .
Professor A: if you found that nine was better than six that would be O K , I think , actually .
PhD B: Mm - hmm .
Professor A: Doesn't have to go down .
PhD B: Yeah . I really wasn't even gonna play with that part of the system yet ,
Professor A: Mm - hmm , OK .
PhD B: I was just gonna change the {disfmarker} the t
Professor A: Yeah , just work with the models , yeah .
PhD B: yeah , just look at the length of the models and just see what happens .
Professor A: Yeah .
PhD B: So .
Professor A: Cool . OK . So uh {vocalsound} what 's uh I guess your plan for {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you guys ' plan for the next {disfmarker} next week is {vocalsound} just continue on these {disfmarker} these same things we 've been talking about for Aurora and
PhD C: Yeah , I guess we can try to {vocalsound} have some kind of new baseline for next week perhaps . with all these minor things {vocalsound} {vocalsound} modified . And then do other things , play with the spectral subtraction , and {vocalsound} retry the MSG and things like that .
Professor A: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah we {disfmarker} we have a big list .
PhD C: Big list ?
Professor A: You have a big list of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of things to do . So . Well that 's good . I think {vocalsound} that after all of this uh um confusion settles down in another {disfmarker} some point a little later next year there will be some sort of standard and it 'll get out there and {vocalsound} hopefully it 'll have some effect from something {vocalsound} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that has uh been done by our group of people but uh e even if it doesn't there 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} there 's go there 'll be standards after that . So .
PhD B: Does anybody know how to um {vocalsound} run Matlab sort of in batch mode like you c send it {vocalsound} s a bunch of commands to run and it gives you the output . Is it possible to do that ?
Grad E: I {disfmarker} I think uh Mike tried it
PhD B: Yeah ?
Grad E: and he says it 's impossible so he went to Octave .
PhD B: Octave .
Grad E: Octave is the um UNIX clone of {disfmarker} of Matlab which you can batch .
PhD B: Ah ! OK . Great . Thanks .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD B: I was going crazy trying to do that .
Professor A: Huh .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD C: What is Octave so ? It 's a free software ?
Grad E: What 's that ? Uh , Octave ?
PhD C: Yeah .
Grad E: Yeah it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's free . I think we have it here {comment} r running somewhere .
PhD B: Great !
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD C: And it does the same syntax and everything eh like Matlab , or {disfmarker} ?
Grad E: Um {vocalsound} {comment} i it 's a little behind , it 's the same syntax but it 's a little behind in that {comment} Matlab went to these like um you can have cells and you can {disfmarker} you can {comment} uh implement object - oriented type things with Matlab . Uh Octave doesn't do that yet , so I think you , Octave is kinda like Matlab um four point something or .
PhD B: If it 'll do like a lot of the basic matrix and vector stuff
Grad E: The basic stuff , right .
PhD B: that 's perfect .
Grad E: Yeah .
PhD B: Great !
Professor A: OK , guess we 're done .
Grad E: OK .
Grad F: Well , although by the way .
Query:
What did the professor think about positional parameters?
Answer:
|
The professor recounted that the person who worked with positional parameters, Mark Randolph, is at Motorola. He explained that his model consisted of many continuous variables and that heading in that direction would become a research project in and of itself.
| 141
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| 40,867
| 40,931
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... [The rest of the transcript is omitted]
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va-sq-264
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va-sq-264_0
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You are given a meeting transcript and a query containing a question or instruction. Answer the query in one or more sentences.
Transcript:
Project Manager: So welcome . The first kick-off meeting . What shall we do ? First the opening , then the rest . What are we going to do . We m have to make a new remote control .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: It has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . So we will get back th on that . First we have to make a functional design . After that we have to make a conceptual design , and then after that a detailed design . So we'll discuss that later . First we have a look at {gap} . So first to {disfmarker} we have to make a small painting . What have {disfmarker} do we have to do . First you can save the documents . We have to do that every time we make something . You can print it . No . And we have to use {vocalsound} the pen and the eraser . So {disfmarker} Now . We all have to use this one .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: You have to make your own favourite animal .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So I'll make an example .
Marketing: Yep .
Project Manager: First don't touch that things .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} You can use the pen . And then you can make {vocalsound} um something .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nice .
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um you can change some things .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um format , line , and change it . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} And you can change the colour .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: An elephant . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} So that's it . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So {disfmarker} So and after it you have to save it .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Now we can make a new one .
Marketing: Okay .
Project Manager: You have to paint now . {vocalsound} So you're next .
Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: 'Kay .
Marketing: Well we will try . Where it going ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: Hmm . That's uh strange . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Project Manager: What is going on ?
Industrial Designer: {gap} pop-ups .
Project Manager: What are you {disfmarker} What ?
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {gap} .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: What is this , Pictionary .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh a bird .
Project Manager: Is a {disfmarker} It is a {disfmarker} It is a {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Bird .
Project Manager: A duck .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: So {disfmarker} Now save ?
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Marketing: Now uh blank ?
Project Manager: Blank , yes .
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay next one . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Okay . Let's try this . Uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Whoo .
Marketing: Yeah , yeah .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Um . Mm-hmm . Mm .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Oh not . Oh . {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay . Yeah . No problem .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Shit happens . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I'm not getting anything uh on my screen now . Okay .
Industrial Designer: A parrot . Ish .
Marketing: Wow . Oh .
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: He did it before .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound}
User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: No , no . Yeah . Okay .
Marketing: {vocalsound} Nice .
Project Manager: Very good .
Industrial Designer: Oh .
User Interface: Uh blank .
Industrial Designer: Thank you .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay . Very good . So um you can always go back . {gap} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's it . So that was two . Now next . The budget . The b Uh we will sell the t at twenty five Euros . And we have only twenty of twelve and a half Euro to make it . So {vocalsound} now we have to think about what we will make . First I wanna hear from you . Uh what are your experiences with remote controls . So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Uh I will start .
Project Manager: F first {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {gap}
Marketing: {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Big one , they are uh not easy to use . Um I have one set and uh a remote control , when I dropped it , uh it broke . So that won't be uh our goal , I think .
User Interface: No .
Industrial Designer: And uh g big buttons , {vocalsound} m uh that's easier to use than uh {disfmarker} I think . Not all the small buttons , you don't know {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Is this positive or negative , that uh big buttons ?
Industrial Designer: Big buttons , positive .
Project Manager: Positive .
Industrial Designer: All all small buttons like when you have uh like a hundred buttons on your remote control , you won't know what they're working for .
Project Manager: Okay . What are your experiences ?
User Interface: Uh well I think the the the goal of a remote control is that it's it it has an influence on the T_V_ set .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: And that it controls the channels and the the volume . And uh I I I think it's positive if there's a a LED uh uh a LED on the corner of the of the remote . So that you know it s it still has batteries on it {disfmarker} in it . And that if you push the button the LED uh gives a light , and uh and you see that it's working . And uh yeah . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So and do they always have that ?
User Interface: Yeah , but {disfmarker} No no no . But I {disfmarker} my my experience is that it it it's convenient to have that .
Project Manager: It's easy to you .
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay . 'Kay .
Marketing: Uh at home we have a T_V_ , a video uh recorder , a D_V_D_ player , and a satellite receiver . We have uh four distinctive remote controls for that .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Thank you .
Marketing: That's not really ea easy .
Industrial Designer: Help also . {vocalsound} Thank you .
Marketing: So it would be nice if we have one for all . And we also had a remote control for our radio set . But um i it it had a lot of buttons on it , and you didn't know which one was what . And it was uh uh v {vocalsound} not easy to use . So we n barely used it .
Project Manager: Okay so they have too much . So next .
User Interface: Hmm .
Project Manager: For our own remote control we have to think how do we make it . So what ideas do you have for it , for the new remote control ? What what does it have to have ? {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: The weight . Not not too heavy .
Project Manager: Not too heavy . Yes .
Industrial Designer: Not much buttons .
Project Manager: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Bust-free . That when you drop it , it won't break . Like uh some kind of rubber on it . Or hard uh hard plastic . Uh buttons not too small . Uh something like when you uh lose your uh remote control , sometimes it happen . Uh it between the couch and you can't find it .
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: When you push a but a button on the T_V_ , then you hear some {gap} {disfmarker} uh some sort of bleep .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Like a phone .
Industrial Designer: And then you uh , hey there there's remote control .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: So ,
Industrial Designer: Next .
Project Manager: that's {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah well that's {disfmarker} that are good ideas . Uh {disfmarker} Yeah well the LED on the corner , that that indicates that it's working . If you push a button . Um {disfmarker} Yeah . And looking on the budget , not too expensive uh material . So probably plastic or something . Uh {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Yeah I think it uh {disfmarker} from a marketing point of view , it also has to look nice . Or you won't sell it .
Project Manager: Yes .
Marketing: And um yeah uh on our website we can see what products we already have . And it should work with as many uh as possible of them .
Project Manager: Okay . This is {disfmarker} It has to be compatible with other things .
Marketing: Yes .
Project Manager: Okay .
Industrial Designer: I have one more idea . Just popped up .
Project Manager: Yes ?
Industrial Designer: Uh it it won't take a lot of batteries . So you don't {disfmarker} won't have to change the batteries uh once a week or uh once every two weeks .
Project Manager: No battery use . So more ideas ?
User Interface: Mm no .
Project Manager: No okay . It's only the first ideas . So {vocalsound} uh what are we going to do now is {disfmarker} Next meeting is in half an h hour . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay . Next meeting , half an hour . Um , what you have to do . Well look on your {gap} . And {disfmarker} Next instructions you'll get in your email . So {disfmarker} This is the first meeting . See you later in half an hour .
User Interface: Yes .
Industrial Designer: Okay . Thank you .
Marketing: Okay .
Query:
What's the decision of remote feature design?
Answer:
|
Project Manager believed that it could not be heavy. Industrial Designer indicated that fewer and bigger buttons are better and should be bust-free, for instance, rubber could be used on it. Industrial Designer also suggested that when users push a button, they could hear some sort of bleep. User Interface suggested a LED on the corner and not too expensive material like plastic could be used. Marketing added that it should look nice for better sales and should work with as many as possible of existing products listed on their website. Industrial Designer also concluded that it should be battery-saving.
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... [The rest of the transcript is omitted]
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